True Detective Season 2 Discussion

[wasted]

I think it's more like the ending would be too shocking for HBO.

But if you read Galvestan by Nic he's a cheese ball ending in that too. Badass characters kind act ambiguous throughout too. In the end there's a moral message. HBO likes that. But to suggest there's institutional pedo sex ring running right up the US senate. Lets think of rewriting the last episode Nic?

We got the Lethal Weapon ending.

Edited September 27, 2014 by wasted

[downzy]

I don't know how anyone can honestly blame Cary Fukanaga for the last episode, Nic wrote it and from what I understand, it wasn't written until a week or so before it was going to be filmed.

Imagine that? The ending wasn't written until they were locked into six or so episodes. Maybe there was an outline and that was enough for HBO, but this kind of Hollywood mentality where re-writes (or in this case, first-draft run throughs) leave production in limbo and always hinder the quality of the final product.

Why did HBO push TD back six months for season 2? They learned their lesson: you don't pull the turkey from the oven half-baked.

Maybe there was an ending where the whole Tuttle family was exposed and the greater conspiracy laid out? I certainly think they were building towards something else and here's my evidence:

-The very first scene in Episode one is two figures shrouded in darkness, carrying each other through a cane field as a huge fire rages in the background. This was obviously supposed to be a flash-forward and it was obviously supposed to be Rust and Marty, one of which is definitely wounded and is carrying the other. The only question nobody ever asked Cary or Nic is what the significance was of this scene and why it made it out of the editing room if it was part of some kind of aborted ending..

While I think it's valid to suggest you didn't enjoy the finale or that it didn't work for you, it's quite another to suggest that the ending wasn't something that was originally envisioned by the show's creator. Absolutely no where have I read anything about the finale being anything different than what Pizzolatto had envisioned it.

You're suggestion that the first scene was obviously suppose to be a flash-forward is ridiculous. Why? At one point in the series are we led to believe that we'd be returning to that scene? Re-watch the first scene; it's clear that the one guy starts the fire, using one of those wooden symbols to light the field (which you can still see burning/smoke when Russ and Marty show up to investigate the following day).

The show certainly invited suspicions regarding the two leading male protagonists, but it never twisted the story to the point of being manipulative. I get that many were disappointed that their predictions were proven to be untrue, thus preventing them from declaring their intellectual superiority over those who failed to grasp what was so obvious to themselves. But Pizzolatto was very clear from the get-go that the show was never intended to be anything other than a straight forward procedural.

[wasted]

It wasn't a straight forward procedural though. He also said they worked a lot on the 4th wall or whatever it's called, that's not really police procedural territory. Normally in police procedural series you know the cop isn't the bad guy. But with TD you just couldn't say that about Rust or Marty til really the end. If they came back for season 2 then you'd know, and it might not be that interesting. like CSI.

The way I see it the last ep was just him doing another type of episode. Each ep was different, like that riot ep had some Mann influences. I think he just threw everything he had at the show because he didn't know if it was his last. The final ep had the kind of closure you get in the last ep of The Wire finale, mixed with with 80s wheelchair action movie. Die hard/Lethal Weapon. But he kept his philosophy and resolved it. He's a moralist. It's a bit like Brett Easton Ellis really. People are more interested in the story or the exploitation/badassery then the moral point he was making about men causing all the pain in the world. To say it was just a police procedural is misleading.

not really saying Pizz and Ellis the same style, just the way the audience relates to them is similar, almost on a stylistic level, when actually they have some deeper thoughts. Pizz is more complicated, he's like the Tarantino of television bur he's got more soul.

Edited September 29, 2014 by wasted

[downzy]

It wasn't a straight forward procedural though. He also said they worked a lot on the 4th wall or whatever it's called, that's not really police procedural territory. Normally in police procedural series you know the cop isn't the bad guy. But with TD you just couldn't say that about Rust or Marty til really the end. If they came back for season 2 then you'd know, and it might not be that interesting. like CSI.

The way I see it the last ep was just him doing another type of episode. Each ep was different, like that riot ep had some Mann influences. I think he just threw everything he had at the show because he didn't know if it was his last. The final ep had the kind of closure you get in the last ep of The Wire finale, mixed with with 80s wheelchair action movie. Die hard/Lethal Weapon. But he kept his philosophy and resolved it. He's a moralist. It's a bit like Brett Easton Ellis really. People are more interested in the story or the exploitation/badassery then the moral point he was making about men causing all the pain in the world. To say it was just a police procedural is misleading.

not really saying Pizz and Ellis the same style, just the way the audience relates to them is similar, almost on a stylistic level, when actually they have some deeper thoughts. Pizz is more complicated, he's like the Tarantino of television bur he's got more soul.

I disagree with the notion that Marty or Rust's guilt/innocence wasn't clear until the end. I'll acknowledge that the possibility was raised early on, but once the show revealed both Rust and Marty investigating the crimes on their own by the third or fourth episode it was very clear to me. Because then you'd have the show lying to the viewer by having the characters do something on screen that's only meant to fool the viewer rather than the other players in the show.

Also not sure I can agree that the last episode was similar to Lethal Weapon. I've seen them all and I can't recall Briggs' hallucinating being manifested on screen through special effects. For me, the story was always about the characters attempting to not only solve the crime but figure out themselves. It's why, for me, the end was pretty shocking in that Rust sort of finds God at the end. I also find it interesting how the final scene of the show somewhat mirrors the opening scene of the first episode. The symmetry isn't by accident.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I think it's more like the ending would be too shocking for HBO.

But if you read Galvestan by Nic he's a cheese ball ending in that too. Badass characters kind act ambiguous throughout too. In the end there's a moral message. HBO likes that. But to suggest there's institutional pedo sex ring running right up the US senate. Lets think of rewriting the last episode Nic?

We got the Lethal Weapon ending.

If they exposed a pedo ring in the US Senate they would probably be sent to Pakistan or something.

[wasted]

Not really, after they solved the Le Doux case Rust disappeared for 8 years. That is kind of at the heart of the suspicion. The cops are investigating Rust. Marty was doing bad stuff. Honestly I think Pizz is doing both. In Galveston it's the same. There's always the possibility that these characters could do something unsavoury. They aren't squeaky clean. Like when they go rogue and Rust is doing dope to go undercover with biker gang. You see what he's capable of.

I'm not saying it doesn't line up in the end. Same in Galveston. In the wrap up its clear and it's like how could I doubt you? But along the way you aren't sure. I think you could easily go a different way after ep 5. I think if you take away that doubt and tension you've got nothing, no tension, no drama. The mistrust between rust and Marty and the police department and who is corrupt is a big part of it. You could see that easily in the end Marty could be cult like a lot of the cops. It was institutionalised corruption. It really depended how deep it was. I think suspicion shifted from Rust to Marty. Even when they had the cop on the boat there was still an element that Marty could side with the cop and turn on Rust.

And it's not lying, it's ambiguous. You go back and you can play it one way or the other. In someways all the eps were a smokescreen as nothing they were looking at mattered because it was just the green spaghetti and the pic of the green house from ep 2. Like Marty said the rest was conjecture. There's no chain of events. Nothing happened but them failing. Then by luck they solved it. It's no less of a lie than just actually Rust has been out killing while pretending to investigate. You could still have Marty learns his lessons about family and being a man.

You missing the main binary between the kind of buddy cop elements like the two Heroes getting wheeled out the hospital all beaten up like Lethal weapon or Die hard and the moral or philosophical points Pizz is playing with.

The genre elements of procedural and mystery were well developed but the it's really in the end about the characters that makes it more interesting. Not everyone wants or needs that bow on the end. And why be so ambiguous for such a genre ending. It felt like there was still a better way to end it. I think it was more the cartoon Errol. That's what people complained about more than it not being Marty. Well that's part of it but the network seemed broader but they narrowed it down to this one horror cliche. It's too neat. From the realism down to these tidy wrap ups. Marty is too self satisfied, we got our guy. Totally missing the point. Then Rust destroys his own character by saying the stars are winning. The descent was too step from Ep 5.

I think it's more like the ending would be too shocking for HBO.

But if you read Galvestan by Nic he's a cheese ball ending in that too. Badass characters kind act ambiguous throughout too. In the end there's a moral message. HBO likes that. But to suggest there's institutional pedo sex ring running right up the US senate. Lets think of rewriting the last episode Nic?

We got the Lethal Weapon ending.

If they exposed a pedo ring in the US Senate they would probably be sent to Pakistan or something.

Errol was like the Bin Laden of TD. We need an enemy to hang our right wing values on.

We shouted out who killed the Kennedys when after all it was you and me.

Edited September 30, 2014 by wasted

[downzy]

Wasted, I realize I've reiterated this point again and again, and you're welcome to disagree with me, but the main focus on the show for me wasn't the actual crime but those investigating the crime (hence why it's called True Detective, and not True Crime). The investigation was the vehicle in which we see the two main protagonists interact with each other and themselves. I think you're missing the forest from the trees on this one. And episode five concluded with Rust investigating the crimes on his own. This notion that he'd take the time to investigate a crime in which he himself was apart of makes no sense.

[bacardimayne]

If you use the first letter of the second word in every 3rd line of dialogue in the season finale, it spells out what the real ending was supposed to be.

[wasted]

Wasted, I realize I've reiterated this point again and again, and you're welcome to disagree with me, but the main focus on the show for me wasn't the actual crime but those investigating the crime (hence why it's called True Detective, and not True Crime). The investigation was the vehicle in which we see the two main protagonists interact with each other and themselves. I think you're missing the forest from the trees on this one. And episode five concluded with Rust investigating the crimes on his own. This notion that he'd take the time to investigate a crime in which he himself was apart of makes no sense.

there definitely was a point where suspicion switched more on Marty. when they are in the garage you half expect Marty turn on Rust. People even speculated Marty was in the video. It may not be what Pizz wanted but that's what happened.

I'm not talking about the how the show was meant to be interpreted but how it actually was. I think that Pizz had to come forward and say no tricks kind of shows the gap in what he wanted and what he got.

It's 4 or 5 eps of ambiguity which kind of set the tone. It's not even really debateable.

The problem was that the last ep just wasn't that good. Somehow Errol was a joke. And their relationship as a kind of patch to cover everything didn't work because it wasn't their relationship that was interesting. It was the resolution each character. Marty realised he was an idiot and Rust saw that it wasn't all predestined darkness. If that was the main point, they only spent 2 eps on it. You don't really need 6 eps to get there. It's unbalanced.

Edited September 30, 2014 by wasted

[wasted]

If you use the first letter of the second word in every 3rd line of dialogue in the season finale, it spells out what the real ending was supposed to be.

The ending is fine but you can't tell me it was the only ending possible in that show.

I mean it's the same in Galveston. Basically a mob hit man goes to do a hit and it goes wrong and he ends tied up with a girl. Somehow he kills everyone and saves her. She's too young for him. A teen. But he's thinking about it and they go on the run. They check in at her place and she kills her boyfriend and brings her daughter on the run with them. He should really bail on them but he stays. All the time he's trying not to fuck her but wants to. So he's basically killed 4 people and she's on the run with a minor and her child and she's killed her boyfriend too. But he can't ditch them because morally that would be wrong. They hole up in a motel where the kid gets looked by some elderly residents while she goes to work as a hooker or something. Then there's this scene where he's met another crim and they planning a job. He decides to bail on the chick do this job and get out of trouble. They go on the job but instead of doing it he kills the crim and goes back to motel to confront the chick. So while killing all these people he has this moral obligation to this chick that he also wants to fuck even though she's 16. Some other stuff happens the chick dies and he gets out. Cut to 20 years later and he meets up with the child of chick and sees she's turned out great and it was all worth it. He's actually a great guy who was a career criminal that went on a 4 man killing spree and kidnapped a minor and her child. And it reminded me of TD you have central characters who are pieces of shit, who have this weird moral code about one particular thing and that in a way is their redemption. But actually it makes no sense really.

[downzy]

Maybe, I can't say as I haven't read Galveston. So point well taken.

[wasted]

It's worth reading I reckon. It's kind of hard boiled but has the sleazy charm of TD. The main character is like another Rust/Marty, maybe a little self aware. This idea that you can find redemption in doing something right really well seems like a theme though. Also that kids are special. Not unlike Dennis LeHane. I guess there's more feeling in Pizzlatto than most.

[Dan H.]

[Nosaj Thing]

[Silent Jay]

[Nosaj Thing]

[downzy]

Looks awesome. I wasn't too worried about the cast when it was announced as I figured the tone of the show that was established in the first season would carry over. Looks like that's the case.

[MEXzilla]

Looks like we have a ton of Rust Coles...that ain't a good thing. I can't take Vaughn seriously, too much comedy in him to ever view him as a dramatic or cool actor.

[Nosaj Thing]

I can't take Vaughn seriously, too much comedy in him to ever view him as a dramatic or cool actor.

Has he made drama before?

[Rovim]

Looks like we have a ton of Rust Coles...that ain't a good thing. I can't take Vaughn seriously, too much comedy in him to ever view him as a dramatic or cool actor.

I think he can do it. Seems like he was just asleep/kinda bored but he has a certain type of charisma about him that is promising. Maybe he'll surprise you cause True Detective might be a chance for him to not be a fuckin' clown. I saw 2 cool movies with him can't remember the titles though. Pretty old.

[MEXzilla]

I can't take Vaughn seriously, too much comedy in him to ever view him as a dramatic or cool actor.

Has he made drama before?

Drama, no. I don't think so. Still he's done serious work like Psycho, The Cell, or that awful John Travolta movie he was in.

Looks like we have a ton of Rust Coles...that ain't a good thing. I can't take Vaughn seriously, too much comedy in him to ever view him as a dramatic or cool actor.

I think he can do it. Seems like he was just asleep/kinda bored but he has a certain type of charisma about him that is promising. Maybe he'll surprise you cause True Detective might be a chance for him to not be a fuckin' clown. I saw 2 cool movies with him can't remember the titles though. Pretty old.

I'm actually hoping he does. I'm probably gonna give it 3 eps and if it's as good or near the last season, my tone and perspective of the show will surly change.

[Nosaj Thing]

I can't take Vaughn seriously, too much comedy in him to ever view him as a dramatic or cool actor.

Has he made drama before?

Drama, no. I don't think so. Still he's done serious work like Psycho, The Cell, or that awful John Travolta movie he was in.

Psycho wasn't his fault, the whole movie was a piece of shit. I will give him a chance. He is one of those actors I can't dislike.

[RussTCB]

I never got around to watching the first season. I should be able to just start with season 2, right?

[bacardimayne]

I never got around to watching the first season. I should be able to just start with season 2, right?

The storylines aren't connected, so yes, but season 1 is worth a watch and a half.

[wasted]

After 4 eps lets us know: Marty or Rust?