Axl's Letter to Indonesian President

[Len Cnut]

How about blame Geffen to release that shit of a lyrics? they are guilty too...

Guilty of what?

You pointed out to val in her thread that one should understand the point of view of somebody who live in a different age, society, norms etc...

The ideas espoused in OIAM were not the standard of the day in 1987.

So let me get this straight.

Nearly 30 years after a stranger said the n word in a song, you are still taking offense.

I never once mentioned the N word aspect and i didn't once say I was offended.

But today you told another stranger he could be burning crosses in his lawn and you would not care.

Precisely. Because it is not my interest whether a person, any person is a racist. In terms of personally taking offence. Because why, why bother? Racism and racists exist, they're a fact of life, i don't care that they exist because i know there's nothing I can do about it. That don't mean i don't think it's stupid and i don't think prejudice is ridiculous and, in the framework of a conversation on a message forum, point out inconsistencies in a given individual based on contradictory statements they make.

Whether someone is or isn't a racist, i would never make an assertion about something like that other than to say a given statement reflects something. Simply because racism is about something thats in a persons heart...and no one can tell that shit. I could say racist jokes all day and have everyone think he a racist and still have no animosity towards any race and just respond to them on the basis of making amusing anecdotes based on stereotype.

[Len Cnut]

- For being rascist: A record company shouldn'r elease a song like this, no?

Im not sure that constitutes them being racist. What you mean like all the employees for Geffen or...? Are you sure you didn't mean profiteering from prejudice? Might suit your point better.

Axl came from the midwest where lot of hillbilly bayley's exists... So his POV fits your criteria that you've expressed on your lecture to val

I wonder how much the people of Indiana appreciate your assertion that they're a bunch of racist hillbillies. Also, Indiana was not that remote from the rest of the world in the 1980s that he didn't understand how those things are abhorrant views, thats a total cop out. A paltry excuse. Embarassing almost that you would attempt to claim that a man that lived in metropolitan LA, irrespective of where he came from (which i dispute anyway, this idea that the population of Indiana don't know that prejudice is fucked up), wouldn't know that shit.

if you don't care if somebody is a rascist, why give them lectures, why point out their inconsistencies?

But i didn't give Axl Rose a lecture, I've never met the man. Why point out inconsistencies? Well, because it's a discussion forum, thats what we're here for.

You're simply contradicting yourself and try to back pedal from it, with being a smart ass cool kid on the block

You're here and I'm here and i stand by every word i say, to the letter. If you can find where I'm contradicting myself you are welcome to point it out and i will address it and the day i am wrong or me contradicting myself is clearly highlighted i will stand up and admit it but until such time as you can make your point clearly, you're just saying things for the sake of saying them.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Nosaj Thing]

I am so sad despite always being for capital punishment but for murder, not drug smuggling.

So, since when does Indonesia have the death penalty for drug smuggling? And, since when did you start caring about people being executed in that country?

I don't know how long I would have to look that up. Since when did I care? Well when Barlow and Chambers were executed in Malaysia I was all for the death penalty yet I felt bad the night before and the next morning when I saw it was over. I felt bad all day despite being for the death penalty, that I cannot explain as when you're for the death penalty you are very very passionate as I was.

I've cared about execution in Indonesia since the 5 Australian journalists covering Timor were killed in 1975 (don't go working out my age now ) - one was a colleague of my Dad. Both ours and Indonesian governments did nothing to find who did it & charge them & I was angry that innocent lives were taken that day doing their job which wasn't a criminal offence.

I think my mindset changed after the death of my first child, knowing that every life lost leaves a grieving Mum behind. I cared when Van Tuong Nguyen was hanged in Singapore in the morning our time as I'd watched the visits to jail of his Mum and brother. I cared last night for the same reason, and because they had changed their lives around. If it was done when they were first sentenced maybe I wouldn't have had time to worry. After 10yrs of watching them you get to know them, see what they're doing in jail and the changes made over time. I care because the Indonesian government killed 202 people in a Bali nightclub and they got off - 2 executed but the rest free to do it all again in 2005.

We give so much aid to Indonesia, even built a hospital for them so they could have up to date facilities for their people. We gave $605.3 million in the 2014/2015 budget to them, created the Australia-Bali Eye Centre to help combat blindness in around 50.000 people, helped build schools in remote and poorest areas to provide education need I go on?

In return we get bombed in 2002, 2004 and 2005. They stuck their finger up at us & refused to at least keep these men in jail for life to keep on assisting their own people. Those prisoners and their families will now get nothing. They were asked in respect of Australia to not make the announcement on Anzac Day which is a special day for Australia so what did they do?

Yes I'm angry, yes I care & that is only my opinion. I don't expect you to agree, if you think the right thing was done it doesn't matter to me.

I'm having a sad day for more than just these executions but for a personal reason too. I don't doubt for one minute we will be in this position again in a few years because people are stupid and make mistakes.

Thank you very much for this post. Great knowledge on the subject, I'm very impressed. You just shut me up.

You can fight for the things you believe in and you don't have to explain to anyone why. It's not that I don't agree with you, it's just that I think that it's a bit pretentious to try to question other countries laws, specially when it involves death penalties. Look, I don't want to be executed for smuggling drugs from or into Indonesia. So, what should I do? Probably never try to smuggle drugs from or into Indonesia.

I feel bad for those who were executed today, but even more so for their families and loved ones. It is, sadly, the world we live in.

I'm so sorry Nosaj, I didn't want to shut you up. I hope I didn't come across as offensive, I certainly wasn't aiming any anger at you personally.

You are so right, don't do the crime & you won't do the time.

I apologise if I sounded rude, my emotions are pretty bad right now.

Can you tell me a joke to cheer me up maybe? Now I'm crying because you were so nice in your reply. I expected you to berate me. I misjudged you, I'm sorry.

Missed your post completely. I'm sorry.

Nah, if someone has to apologize, that is me. I didn't think you sounded rude, I was rude. See, I asked some questions thinking you wouldn't know how to answer them but you did, and shared great knowledge and information with me. Thank you for that.

[star]

Indonesian Democracy coming any given Tuesday

[Słash]

Indonesian Democracy coming any given Tuesday

It don't really matter

Gonna find out for yourself

No it don't really matter

You're gonna leave this thing to

Somebody else

[ChristmasFnatic]

I wonder if the Indonesian president told Axl he will stop the execution if Axl reunites with Slash and make new music. Would Axl do it?

[ChristmasFnatic]

I wonder if the Indonesian president told Axl he will stop the execution if Axl reunites with Slash and make new music. Would Axl do it?

this "joke" has already been told like 1 million times in the previous 50 pages.

Please stop.

Actually, Im really asking what fans here think he'd do. And I didnt read every post here, just the last few. Bickering over what decade Axl belongs to. lol

[Nosaj Thing]

Bickering over what decade Axl belongs to. lol

They don't understand English. Only explanation.

[downzy]

I'm locking this thread while i clean it up.

Please, enough with the trivial arguments. Arguing what decade Axl or Guns belongs to has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Anymore attempts to derail the thread will be rewarded with warning points and suspensions.

[downzy]

There... All done.

Deleted a majority of the posts made in the last five or six hours.

Please keep discussion related to the topic. Feel free to discuss the intricacies of what decade Axl belongs to either in Civil War or via PM. Any more attempts to waste everyone else's time by discussing tangents that have no connection with the topic will be dealt with severely.

[Nosaj Thing]

Any news regarding the woman who was reprieved at the last minute?

[Silent Jay]

Any news regarding the woman who was reprieved at the last minute?

She 's spared.

"MJ is needed for her testimony."

Veloso's lawyer Edre Olalia also confirmed the stay of execution.

http://www.jokpeme.com/2015/04/bali-nine-mary-jane-fiesta-veloso-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+jokpeme%2Fizbp+%28Jokpeme+News+-+Popular+Featured+Trends+And+Breaking+News%29

Edited April 29, 2015 by Silent Jay

[Nosaj Thing]

Any news regarding the woman who was reprieved at the last minute?

She was spared.

"MJ is needed for her testimony."

Veloso's lawyer Edre Olalia also confirmed the stay of execution.

http://www.jokpeme.com/2015/04/bali-nine-mary-jane-fiesta-veloso-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+jokpeme%2Fizbp+%28Jokpeme+News+-+Popular+Featured+Trends+And+Breaking+News%29

I can't imagine how happy and relieved she is right now.

Thanks for the link!

[Silent Jay]

Time to launch Stay Of Execution now.

[Nosaj Thing]

It's such a cool name. Hopefully Axl will do something with it.

[Facekicker]

There... All done.

Deleted a majority of the posts made in the last five or six hours.

Please keep discussion related to the topic. Feel free to discuss the intricacies of what decade Axl belongs to either in Civil War or via PM. Any more attempts to waste everyone else's time by discussing tangents that have no connection with the topic will be dealt with severely.

Execution?

[downzy]

There... All done.

Deleted a majority of the posts made in the last five or six hours.

Please keep discussion related to the topic. Feel free to discuss the intricacies of what decade Axl belongs to either in Civil War or via PM. Any more attempts to waste everyone else's time by discussing tangents that have no connection with the topic will be dealt with severely.

Execution?

Maybe...

Depends if Axl's letter arrives in time.

[Facekicker]

[rock4eva]

I am so sad despite always being for capital punishment but for murder, not drug smuggling.

So, since when does Indonesia have the death penalty for drug smuggling? And, since when did you start caring about people being executed in that country?

I don't know how long I would have to look that up. Since when did I care? Well when Barlow and Chambers were executed in Malaysia I was all for the death penalty yet I felt bad the night before and the next morning when I saw it was over. I felt bad all day despite being for the death penalty, that I cannot explain as when you're for the death penalty you are very very passionate as I was.

I've cared about execution in Indonesia since the 5 Australian journalists covering Timor were killed in 1975 (don't go working out my age now ) - one was a colleague of my Dad. Both ours and Indonesian governments did nothing to find who did it & charge them & I was angry that innocent lives were taken that day doing their job which wasn't a criminal offence.

I think my mindset changed after the death of my first child, knowing that every life lost leaves a grieving Mum behind. I cared when Van Tuong Nguyen was hanged in Singapore in the morning our time as I'd watched the visits to jail of his Mum and brother. I cared last night for the same reason, and because they had changed their lives around. If it was done when they were first sentenced maybe I wouldn't have had time to worry. After 10yrs of watching them you get to know them, see what they're doing in jail and the changes made over time. I care because the Indonesian government killed 202 people in a Bali nightclub and they got off - 2 executed but the rest free to do it all again in 2005.

We give so much aid to Indonesia, even built a hospital for them so they could have up to date facilities for their people. We gave $605.3 million in the 2014/2015 budget to them, created the Australia-Bali Eye Centre to help combat blindness in around 50.000 people, helped build schools in remote and poorest areas to provide education need I go on?

In return we get bombed in 2002, 2004 and 2005. They stuck their finger up at us & refused to at least keep these men in jail for life to keep on assisting their own people. Those prisoners and their families will now get nothing. They were asked in respect of Australia to not make the announcement on Anzac Day which is a special day for Australia so what did they do?

Yes I'm angry, yes I care & that is only my opinion. I don't expect you to agree, if you think the right thing was done it doesn't matter to me.

I'm having a sad day for more than just these executions but for a personal reason too. I don't doubt for one minute we will be in this position again in a few years because people are stupid and make mistakes.

Thank you very much for this post. Great knowledge on the subject, I'm very impressed. You just shut me up.

You can fight for the things you believe in and you don't have to explain to anyone why. It's not that I don't agree with you, it's just that I think that it's a bit pretentious to try to question other countries laws, specially when it involves death penalties. Look, I don't want to be executed for smuggling drugs from or into Indonesia. So, what should I do? Probably never try to smuggle drugs from or into Indonesia.

I feel bad for those who were executed today, but even more so for their families and loved ones. It is, sadly, the world we live in.

I'm so sorry Nosaj, I didn't want to shut you up. I hope I didn't come across as offensive, I certainly wasn't aiming any anger at you personally.

You are so right, don't do the crime & you won't do the time.

I apologise if I sounded rude, my emotions are pretty bad right now.

Can you tell me a joke to cheer me up maybe? Now I'm crying because you were so nice in your reply. I expected you to berate me. I misjudged you, I'm sorry.

Missed your post completely. I'm sorry.

Nah, if someone has to apologize, that is me. I didn't think you sounded rude, I was rude. See, I asked some questions thinking you wouldn't know how to answer them but you did, and shared great knowledge and information with me. Thank you for that.

Wow I was really bad yesterday wasn't I?

When it comes to true crime I know quite a bit, been into it since I was very young.

Ask me anything about it & I'll write you another story.

[GUNNER PT]

Today I was thinking about this stuff ... and I was remembering a dark side of Indonesia's history.

There was this little territory called East Timor, located in the eastern half of the island of Timor, near Indonesia.

From the wiki:

East Timor was colonised by Portugal in the 16th century, and was known as Portuguese Timor until Portugal's decolonisation of the country.

Following the 1974 Portuguese revolution, Portugal effectively abandoned its colony on Timor and civil war between East Timorese political parties broke out in 1975.

The Revolutionary Front for an Independent East Timor (Fretilin) resisted a Timorence Democratic Union (UDT) coup attempt, and unilaterally declared independence in 1975. Fearing a communist state within the Indonesian archipelago, the Indonesian military, with western support, launched an invasion of East Timor in the same year. Indonesia declared East Timor its 27th province in1976. The UN Security Council opposed the invasion and the territory's nominal status in the UN remained as "non-self-governing territory under Portuguese administration".

Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth abd Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum bound of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness. The East Timorese guerrilla force (Falintil), led by Xanana Gusmão, fought a campaign against the Indonesian forces from 1975 to 1999.

The invasion was supported by the United States.

The 1991 Dili's Massacre was a turning point for the independence cause internationally, and an East Timor solidarity movement grew in Portugal, Australia, and other western countries.

Following the resignation of Indonesian President Suharto, a UN-sponsored agreement between Indonesia and Portugal allowed for a UN-supervised popular referendum in August 1999. A clear vote for independence was met with a punitive campaign of violence by East Timorese pro-integration melitia with the support of elements of the Indonesian military. With Indonesian permission, an Australian-led international peacekeeping force was deployed until order was restored. In late 1999, the administration of East Timor was taken over by the UN through the United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor (...) By May 2002, over 205,000 refugees had returned, and East Timorese independence was formalised on 20 May 2002 with Xanana Gusmão sworn in as the country's first President. East Timor became a member of the UN in 2002.

Indonesia was a dictatorship for years ... led by this sanguinary leader and dictator called Suharto, responsible for more than 100.000 deaths in only 25 years.

I believe that Indonesia it's a better place now but, I really don't know, because I don't follow the country's politics since East Tomorense independence in 2002.

I was just a kid when it happened, but I still can remember the horrid images of Dili's massacre, back in 1991. The feeling of impotence to help those people was really distressing. The international community didn't care that much, at the time ... only Portugal and then Australia started to denounce what was going on. The U.S. ... the "police of the world", who supported Timor's invasion by Indonesia's army some years before, was too much busy fighting for oil in Iraq.

Wished that Axl could have done something like he is doing now, at that time ... when he was still relevant and when the problem was really huge. I mean, every single human life it's precious but, we can't compare 10 people who infringed the law to 100.000 people who were only fighting for independence ....

Btw ... I'm totally against death penalty.

[maynard]

The U.S. ... the "police of the world", who supported Timor's invasion by Indonesia's army some years before, was too much busy fighting for oil in Iraq.

Evil Americans!!!!

[GUNNER PT]

The U.S. ... the "police of the world", who supported Timor's invasion by Indonesia's army some years before, was too much busy fighting for oil in Iraq.

Evil Americans!!!!

You are assuming something that I didn't say. And by "americans" I hope you don't mean "the american people".

[Strange Broue]

You see Gunner, you can capable of a quality post if you don't try desperately to trollllllll here

Axl should play a show in East Timor

[wasted]

Chomsky used East Timor as an example of how the west doesn't stop invasions of communist countries. The media doesn't broadcast this either, you know where the US seen as the bad guy.

[Ant]

Can somebody please find Ja Rule, get a hold of this motherfucker so I can make sense of all this!