GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[killuridols]

2 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

There is song that has line that says, sometimes the best way to say something is to say nothing at all. So in a sense, yes. Because if we don’t feed negativity it doesn’t have a chance to escalate.

I don't agree with that at all.

This was not "negativity" in the terms you think it was. I guess you did not read the comment. But I don't believe in that type of silence anymore. Seeing bad things happening in front of your eyes and just putting your head down? Overlooking injustice?

NEVER AGAIN. I'm sorry. We all come from different environments and experiences, so for some of us, being able to voice our discomfort or concern it is very important.

That kind of silence is only helpful in hospitals and libraries.

[Rocketqueen76]

25 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I don't agree with that at all.

This was not "negativity" in the terms you think it was. I guess you did not read the comment. But I don't believe in that type of silence anymore. Seeing bad things happening in front of your eyes and just putting your head down? Overlooking injustice?

NEVER AGAIN. I'm sorry. We all come from different environments and experiences, so for some of us, being able to voice our discomfort or concern it is very important.

That kind of silence is only helpful in hospitals and libraries.

I’m not talking overlooking injustice or in your face hatred. You are right though, I didn’t see the comment but IMO it’s only words. If I got boiling mad every time someone called me a ni**er or told me to go back to Africa (which I have never been to a day in my life) I would be in jail for the rest of my life. Words I can let slide off my back a little, physical violence or something grand scale happening I have to speak out and do something. So I understand how important it was for you to voice your displeasure....but at the end of the day you are still able to come here and enjoy this community.

Example, when I was 15 a whole family threw rocks at me just for walking down the street and being black....I did not take it sitting down but I could no longer walk down that street because of the physical threat. So like others have said, ignore the ignorance and keep on being the @killuridols that so many of us love to debate with.

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Rocketqueen76

[Tori72]

17 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

I’m not talking overlooking injustice or in your face hatred. You are right though, I didn’t see the comment but IMO it’s only words. If I got boiling mad every time someone called me a ni**er or told me to go back to Africa (which I have never been to a day in my life) I would be in jail for the rest of my life. Words I can let slide off my back a little, physical violence or something grand scale happening I have to speak out and do something. So I understand how important it was for you to voice your displeasure....but at the end of the day you are still able to come here and enjoy this community.

Example, when I was 15 a whole family threw rocks at me just for walking down the street and being black....I did not take it sitting down but I could no longer walk down that street because of the physical threat. So like others have said, ignore the ignorance and keep on being the @killuridols that so many of us love to debate with.

 

I get you and I agree on what your are saying. Still, words are the beginning. Words are the tools with which we speak our mind and opinions. How we use language is important. It also shapes thinking of the recievers. That’s why it is important to call out on the things that are important to you and that you feel violated.

Physical violence of course is something else. What you had to go through as a only 15 year old is cruel and I feel really sorry you had to live that moment.

 

The world can be a fucked up place and as a German I made a promise to my 15 year old self to call out on injustice and hate as soon as I see it. Otherwise I didn’t know how to handle all of what I learned the generation of my grandparents did. That history is still fucking close. It just happend. I felt personal responsible even if I wasn’t. (I don’t feel personally responsible for what happend anymore. That was my teenage reaction. Anyway.) I still need to live up to that promise. Especially today when Germany is suffering a right wing backlash and even the media is copying the framing and arguments from the new Nazis and when fascism is rising again in so many other parts of the world.

I know I can’t change the world, especially not on a freaking GnR forum. Still I never want to hide behind things I think are important and I never want people to get away with ignorance, hatred and gaslighting communication.

Sorry, that became an ass long post about myself. So be it. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Tori72

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

You are right though, I didn’t see the comment but IMO it’s only words.

I dont agree. Hateful speech is made of words and I think words are very powerful. Especially in this era of Internet, everything is written, not oral anymore!

How is that you and me are talking right now? Via written words, otherwise, I would have never had the chance of talking to you and you would never have the chance of talking to me!

5 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

If I got boiling mad every time someone called me a ni**er or told me to go back to Africa (which I have never been to a day in my life) I would be in jail for the rest of my life.

But someone has to stop those people. You may choose how to react to them but others will react different, and they may end up in jail, but maybe their effort will later save others from suffering the same.
Im not saying you have to be a hero but at some point, someone, has to stand up and say "hey, this is wrong".

7 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

So I understand how important it was for you to voice your displeasure....but at the end of the day you are still able to come here and enjoy this community.

It cannot be enjoyed anymore if we have people like this saying shit like that and having the rest of us normalizing the behavior, like zombies.

It takes one bad apple to spoil the whole damn bunch, didn't Rose write a lyric like that? Well, he's right. If no one says anything, soon this thread will become a box of rotten apples.

9 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

So like others have said, ignore the ignorance and keep on being the @killuridols that so many of us love to debate with.

No, I will not. LOL.

I mean, I know what you mean but I sleep with one eye open and I will never allow an asshole to get away with their shit just because we have to keep, I don't know what ficticious, kind of status quo.

This is a lively thread, it is not created or fed by robots. This thread is what it is because of the organic beings that post here and if they want bots, then fine, get a bot and let's see how successful they get but what I'm saying is that people here have feel comfortable to post. When they dont, they will leave. We have regulars and people that come and go, but the thread has lasted so long thanks to the regulars..... keep the good and fun environment is something we all aim to and want to, but that doesn't imply to accept everything and anything, at the expense of our own feelings and integrity.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, not that everybody should agree or feel the same.....

Maybe it is time for me to go.... I don't know..... maybe I dont fit here anymore.

 

[Ratam]

3 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

She compared lining up for a rock concert and getting a number written on her hand to “fucking Auschwitz” 

And then has gone on some weird rant about some other shit because I thought she should know better than that 

Thank you for you info😨i want clear that my like her post was just because this post that i read don't contain her mocked about Holocausto ,i know after this and now i feel bad 😧

[Tori72]

Just to have something GnR related and also to let you know my true respect and love for Mr. Giraffe aka  Ned Flanders. I truly love him being outspoken about issues like this and especially about putting the history into perspective of the present.

 

[Ratam]

1 hour ago, Politania said:

Ppl who liked her post arent blind. We all saw what she wrote. Comparision which she used wasn’t right one, but everything else was great, because it was her point of view and her feeling about the concert. That is the reason why i liked her post, and other ppl, im sure did too.

me too, was about the concert, i can't read the original post.

1 hour ago, Politania said:

Ppl who liked her post arent blind. We all saw what she wrote. Comparision which she used wasn’t right one, but everything else was great, because it was her point of view and her feeling about the concert. That is the reason why i liked her post, and other ppl, im sure did too.

me too, was about the concert, i can't read the original post.

1 hour ago, Politania said:

Ppl who liked her post arent blind. We all saw what she wrote. Comparision which she used wasn’t right one, but everything else was great, because it was her point of view and her feeling about the concert. That is the reason why i liked her post, and other ppl, im sure did too.

me too, was about the concert, i can't read the original post.

[Blackstar]

As much horrible as I think Trump's immigrant policies are (and I'd add even the way EU has dealt with the refugees issue as well), I think Duff's analogy, although well meant, is hyperbolic and kind of inappropriate. Nothing can be compared to the horror of Auschwitz, in my opinion.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Blackstar

[Tori72]

1 minute ago, Blackstar said:

As much horrible as I think Trump's immigrant policies are (and I'd add even the way EU has dealt with the refugees issue as well), I think Duff's analogy is hyperbolic and kind of inappropriate. Nothing can be compared to the horror of Auschwitz, in my opinion.

That’s true. I didn’t read his tweet like that. I understood it as the cruelty and injustice done in the past should never happen again. Thus he / we should have a woken eye on what happens today, for example, what his government does at the borders.

Same absolutely goes for the refugees dying in the Mediterranean. It is a disgrace, the word is not even strong enough. Countries deny help and let people die even though they could help. And on the contrary private people who go to sea with private money to help those poor people from drowning are being accused and led before the law... Terrible.

[killuridols]

14 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

The world can be a fucked up place and as a German I made a promise to my 15 year old self to call out on injustice and hate as soon as I see it. Otherwise I didn’t know how to handle all of what I learned the generation of my grandparents did. That history is still fucking close. It just happend. I felt personal responsible even if I wasn’t. (I don’t feel personally responsible for what happend anymore. That was my teenage reaction. Anyway.) I still need to live up to that promise. Especially today when Germany is suffering a right wing backlash and even the media is copying the framing and arguments from the new Nazis and when fascism is rising again in so many other parts of the world.

This is what I was trying to say before.......... Some people assume that there's only Americans in this forum or only people who come from a certain social/economic status, certain education, etc........... We have lots of people here from all places, all ages, different languages and backgrounds. It is important to know that when we talk (or post) we have this big audience that is the entire world, not just a few from the rich countries.

Assuming shit about others it is easy because we are behind monitors and keyboards, but maybe we should exercise more the thought of imagining an actual person behind the words, someone with a life history and all that it entails. Some people are more or less politically involved, but we are all crossed by our contemporary history and the past history of our ancestors. We are all the results of our environment and societies.

Even if this a GN'R forum and this is a GN'R thread, there is no chance that we will go through it without clashing with each other, for whatever reasons. Guns N' Roses are a band of people, as well, and they send a message with their music. We come together here because of them and maybe they will be the only thing all of us here have in common, because our differences become obvious.

Therefore, if we want to keep this thread open some things have to be adjusted and called out, if they are not okay or out of place. It is not overreacting, it is saying, "hey, I am a person and I am reading you, hello???". Everybody wake up in front of your monitors!

And I like how you @Rocketqueen76 have found the freedom here to remind us who you are, just in case we forget, because these monitors and these keyboards gives us a feeling of entitlement but that is not right. Personally, I think you should not be constantly reminding us of your race, because for me it is not necessary, I respect you. But I see how that's a good defense that maybe you learned in the past and see? You are allowed to do it and no one should say one fucking thing about that, or hurt you because of that, and if someone does, I will stand up for you and tell them to fuck off.

So I think the same goes for jewish people, latinamericans, women, babies, muslims, etc...... We must start assuming that there are others here who read us and might get hurt from what we say about their nationalities, race, religion, sexuality.... and no, its not political correctness... IT'S EMPATHY!!

I applaud @Tori72 for standing up for her beliefs, for being true to her promise to her teenage self, because that's the only way to be: to be true to yourself, even when others tell you that you overreact, that you have to move on, that you have to ignore. NO. Just do what your heart tells you to do, especially if it is to defend those who do not have a voice anymore or are silenced by the powers that be!

 

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, Tori72 said:

That’s true. I didn’t read his tweet like that. I understood it as the cruelty and injustice done in the past should never happen again. Thus he / we should have a woken eye on what happens today, for example, what his government does at the borders.

Same absolutely goes for the refugees dying in the Mediterranean. It is a disgrace, the word is not even strong enough. Countries deny help and let people die even though they could help. And on the contrary private people who go to sea with private money to help those poor people from drowning are being accused and led before the law... Terrible.

I've been to refugee camps here and I've seen the tragedy of these people. I have no words to describe it

Yeah, I think Duff meant well and I added it to my post because I realised that it might sound more critical than I intended it to be.

I just don't like these easy comparisons, comparing situations (even war crimes) to Auschwitz, people to Hitler, etc. For example I support the Palestinians' right to freedom and to their own country, and I'm strongly opposed to Israel's policies, but I'm opposed as much when I hear people compare them to the Nazis (more so equal the state of Israel with the Jewish people), because as awful it is, it's not the same.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

Well, Hitler didn't become what he became just from the nothing and all of a sudden. A personality like that is built little by little.

Trump has to be kept under control, especially by the whole American society, because that person came out from themselves. Trump was not born in a different planet. He was raised over there, he was instructed over there, he shares a culture with all Americans.

When bad politicians get to power and we realize the monster we have put in control of our lives, we tend to deny them. Oh no, I didn't vote him! Oh, no, he does not represent me!

It's time to take perspective and assume responsabilites for who he is, because he is one of you, and if you ignore what he says and diminish his bullshit, he will keep walking forward and one day he will surprise you with the worst of shit.

Learning about how Hitler got to do what he got to do is learning how to prevent that a new character as such gains so much power and control of other people.

Kudos for Duff for keeping an eye on that. More artists and more people should do the same!

[marlingrl03]

1 hour ago, Ratam said:

Thank you for you info😨i want clear that my like her post was just because this post that i read don't contain her mocked about Holocausto ,i know after this and now i feel bad 😧

Don't feel bad girl!....I liked it too because I read the "edited version" and I loved her extremely descriptive telling of the show and then I read on about the other comments so I unliked it. But yes, the actual review itself was a nice read imo. 

[Blackstar]

Seeing Hitler merely as a "monster", a "mad man" or an "evil man" and nazism as an a-historical phenomenon is also wrong, of course. It was a complex historical phenomenon that was born and thrived under certain social and political circumstances. And it's not something that belongs to a museum of history. There is neo-nazism today, although not a product of the same circumstances (despite the similarities, the exact circumstances can't be reproduced and in that sense history doesn't repeat itself). We have a neo-nazi party here that has got enough votes to be in the parliament; no one had imagined that would have happened in this country, yet it has

Trump is also a product of certain circumstances, but he's not Hitler.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Blackstar

[Axl`s BFF]

16 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

Don't feel bad girl!....I liked it too because I read the "edited version" and I loved her extremely descriptive telling of the show and then I read on about the other comments so I unliked it. But yes, the actual review itself was a nice read imo. 

Same here💖

[Georgina Arriaga]

57 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I've been to refugee camps here and I've seen the tragedy of these people. I have no words to describe it

Yeah, I think Duff meant well and I added it to my post because I realised that it might sound more critical than I intended it to be.

I just don't like these easy comparisons, comparing situations (even war crimes) to Auschwitz, people to Hitler, etc. For example I support the Palestinians' right to freedom and to their own country, and I'm strongly opposed to Israel's policies, but I'm opposed as much when I hear people compare them to the Nazis (more so equal the state of Israel with the Jewish people), because as awful it is, it's not the same.

Agree with you here. Nazi's regime is a thing that I will never understand...how almost an entire generation could be so consumed by hate is beyond my comprehension...but I will never understand how a country like USA maintained laws against the blacks until the 60's or the apartheid in South Africa.

We are seeing signs of a new fascism era in Europe, and in USA, thst's why Auschwitz is so important and we must not tolerate those expressions of hate. Look to Croatia, everyone is applauding them for reach the World Cup finals...ugghhh some players from that team refuses to play against Africa nations, their fans singing ultra nationalist chants and their lovely president has one of the most absurd politics about women's health ( they have to ask to their husband for permission to buy anticonceptives) and she is a woman!!!! We are going backwards...please Never Again !

[Alja]

I also recommend to go and see Hiroshima nuclear blast memorial (I did), it`s really a strong thing and whole different point of view on history of WW II and Japanese army and their concentrating camps (apart of the fact they were forced to maintain only defensive forces, they never apologized), plus with still present possibility and potential results of nuclear war...

Another topic to explore is for example is how Americans treated Asians, particularly Japanese immigrants and their descendants of west coast during WW II

To say, it was not Hitler in person who killed all those people, it was too often their neighbors, collaborating people. My country was thrown as a peace scapegoat in 1938 to Nazis. And in, like, Ukraine, Nazis were surprised about cruelty of locals towards their own neighbors which over-topped theirs, often there was nothing left to do for them and they were welcomed. Hitler didn`t appear from a blue sky, he was just a tip of a massive iceberg, an impersonation of it. Put your keen eye on different stuff, on slow pushing people where they don`t want to be, to defend and outline themselves, all 20th century genocides began when people living together got an idea that someone is milking their sources and needed to outline themselves from that, not in phase where there was visible line between them, but in times they were strongly mixed. Then for whatever reason those people started to fight them, it`s always the same, pick a dictatorship, or Rwanda, Serbia (end of 20th century, long after people were aware of WW II). Today`s political dynamics in Europe is also interesting from this point of view. 

Topic interesting enough to research is how can genocides actually happen and how your neighbor or relative or even you can become a part of war machinery that kills, and, that`s the most scary part, how easy it is. I`ve seen that trait of obedience to authority, to mainstream opinions. That`s other scary part that after seeing memorials like this you could take it as far past, something which cannot repeat, but it can. You can take opinions of then-people as insane, but masses shared them, and took them as perfectly normal and correct and modern. 

People are aware of Nazism as something bad, so next it will appear in a coat people will not be aware of. Nothing comes from blue sky. Feel comfy with the fact someone is not Hitler and you may be surprised in future. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Alja

[Blackstar]

15 minutes ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

Agree with you here. Nazi's regime is a thing that I will never understand...how almost an entire generation could be so consumed by hate is beyond my comprehension...but I will never understand how a country like USA maintained laws against the blacks until the 60's or the apartheid in South Africa.

We are seeing signs of a new fascism era in Europe, and in USA, thst's why Auschwitz is so important and we must not tolerate those expressions of hate. Look to Croatia, everyone is applauding them for reach the World Cup finals...ugghhh some players from that team refuses to play against Africa nations, their fans singing ultra nationalist chants and their lovely president has one of the most absurd politics about women's health ( they have to ask to their husband for permission to buy anticonceptives) and she is a woman!!!! We are going backwards...please Never Again !

It might come off as over-simplification (it's actually much more complex than it sounds), but I think it all comes down to the economy, namely capitalism and the various political expressions it can take in order to preserve and reproduce itself.

Then, and not irrespective of that, there is historical background, nationalism... Croatia, for example, has a background of collaboration with the Nazis in WW2 (not all the population of course) as a result of the Croatian nationalism and its rivalry with the Serbs. And when the ethnic rivalries were revived in the late 80s-early 90s leading to the breakup of Yugoslavia, that background was embodied to the new Croatian nationalism. Something similar happened with the Baltic states. Their nationalism developed as anti-Russian and then anti-Soviet and that led them to collaborate with the Nazis. And even today they have monuments honouring the SS.

[Padme]

12 hours ago, Blackstar said:

As much horrible as I think Trump's immigrant policies are (and I'd add even the way EU has dealt with the refugees issue as well), I think Duff's analogy, although well meant, is hyperbolic and kind of inappropriate. Nothing can be compared to the horror of Auschwitz, in my opinion.

Not yet, but if the world turns a blind eye. History might repeat itself.

[Padme]

15 hours ago, killuridols said:

Intolerance should never be overlooked or ignored.

True, but I have seen people posting blatant racist and homophobic comments when debating OIAM. And I didn't see the mods doing much to stop it 

It didn't happen in this thread. But it happened in D&N section. People moaning because OIAM was not included in the box set  

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Padme said:

True, but I have seen people posting blatant racist and homophobic comments when debating OIAM. And I didn't see the mods doing much to stop it 

It didn't happen in this thread. But it happened in D&N section. People moaning because OIAM was not included in the box set  

Sometimes you have to help the mods and report whatever you think it is a violation of the rules.

I am not sure if people complaining for the exclusion of OIAM from the box set could be considered racism and homophobia.... It's kind of a complex thing to arrive to that conclusion.

[Natty]

2 hours ago, Padme said:

True, but I have seen people posting blatant racist and homophobic comments when debating OIAM. And I didn't see the mods doing much to stop it 

It didn't happen in this thread. But it happened in D&N section. People moaning because OIAM was not included in the box set  

Moaning that it s not in the box set doesn t mean one is a racist. It s just strange they removed the song. I didnt expect that. It s complex like killuridols said.

too much political correctness : where does it start?  But comparing staff in poland to Auschwitz is another level. 

[Padme]

12 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Sometimes you have to help the mods and report whatever you think it is a violation of the rules.

I am not sure if people complaining for the exclusion of OIAM from the box set could be considered racism and homophobia.... It's kind of a complex thing to arrive to that conclusion.

I meant that I saw comments like "it's one of my favorite songs"  

Why a no racists person would care about the song not being included in the box set?

People coming with excuses like the music is really good. I don't buy that 

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, Padme said:

I meant that I saw comments like "it's one of my favorite songs"  

Why a no racists person would care about the song not being included in the box set?

People coming with excuses like the music is really good. I don't buy that 

Yeah. I don't like the lyrics of the song at all and I have excluded it from my playlists. I refuse to sing those words. But I don't know if I could say someone is a racist for just liking the song or wanting it in the box.

Of course, it is strange to enjoy/sing along to this song and do not consider yourself a discriminatory person....... I mean, at some point I found myself feeling disgusted for repeating those lines when the song was being played, so it was a conscious decision for me to stop singing to it and soon enough it disappeared from my playlist, as I started skipping it more and more.

[Natty]

8 minutes ago, Padme said:

I meant that I saw comments like "it's one of my favorite songs"  

Why a no racists person would care about the song not being included in the box set?

People coming with excuses like the music is really good. I don't buy that 

The melody/music  of that song is good . the words are shit. I am no racist , my parents are immigrants. I have nothing against gay people I am very open minded and hate it when people classify others due to race or education and so on. But I can separate a good melody from the stupid words. Axl could have sung a recipe for soup I would like the song only because of the melody itself. 

There will be some people who like it for the words as unfortunately there are enough racists running around but there are also people who like only the music / melody cause its special like I used to love her. its not the classic hard rock melody..