Perception of GnR/Axl between 1993-1997?

[Blackstar]

39 minutes ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Axl knew he was working on his solo album, and Slash was skipping rehearsals because Axl wasn't showing up and was trying to force Huge in. To say that was laziness is just ignoring all the context. How long would you keep showing up if nothing was getting done anyway? If Axl really did want to write, he would show up to rehearsal. To focus on Slash not showing up when Axl never showed up to begin with is a bit silly.

That, and I think Slash just needed space because things were getting too fucked up to deal with.

It's not true that Axl never showed up in rehearsals at that time. Based on what has been said, he sometimes would show up late at night, but he would be there. How productive he was at those rehearsals in terms of vocals is another story.

[SoulMonster]

5 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Axl knew he was working on his solo album, and Slash was skipping rehearsals because Axl wasn't showing up and was trying to force Huge in. To say that was laziness is just ignoring all the context. How long would you keep showing up if nothing was getting done anyway? If Axl really did want to write, he would show up to rehearsal. To focus on Slash not showing up when Axl never showed up to begin with is a bit silly.

That, and I think Slash just needed space because things were getting too fucked up to deal with.

I never saw that comment about Slash being lazy. I was just responding to your statement that Slash didn't skip rehearsals. I wasn't aware of the context of your post.

As for whether Slash is lazy, of course not. He is one of the hardest working men in show business. He is always busy. 

What happened was that he was in a bad relationship and he got a mistress that he started to hang out with. Many can relate to kind of being stuck in a bad relationship but not seeing an exit so you just keep on hanging around even if it is hurtful. But then, if you find someone else, the break is easier because you can immediately just transition to another relationship so you skip all the heartache of suddenly being alone. Slash's mistress was Snakepit. She was young and free of drama and did all he wanted. GN'R was the wife and there was nothing but headache and fighting with her. What Slash didn't do, at least not back in 1994-1995, was to leave his wife for his mistress - he wanted both. He wanted to hang out with his fun mistress and then come back to his wife at some point, because that's where his future was, at least financially. So he stopped coming to rehearsals with GN'R for a while.

So what were the problems between Axl and Slash at the time? Why was their relationship so bad? There were many things, actually, built up over years, but at this time (late 1994) I believe the two main problems Slash had with Axl was that his ego was wounded after Axl (and Duff) had rejected the songs he had written with Gilby and Matt, and that they couldn't agree on Gilby's replacement and Axl tried to shoehorn Paul in on the band (Slash had wanted to keep Gilby or get Ryan Roxie). At the time, Duff was also recuperating from his burst pancreas so Slash was in a sense alone in the conflict with Axl, and Slash is very conflict aversive. He prefers to avoid conflicts. He is more of the flee than the fight type. So he decided to prioritize Snakepit, where he could play his songs in a drama free band with guys picked by him, and stopped going to GN'R rehearsals. And that is kind of ironic since Axl actually wanted to get work done at the time. 

It is easy to assign blame for the situation but it is hard to get it right, in my opinion. It is a common belief that Axl wanted to completely change the music of the band at the time and that this pushed Slash away. Slash himself would state this in interviews from 1995 and onwards, which is a really efficient way to turn the fans against Axl (because most fans, after all, were fans of the early GN'R music and would hate to think the band would drastically change their music). It also worked wonders since Axl by then had stopped talking to the press so Slash got to steer the narrative and public opinion. Axl would vehemently deny this on the rare occasions when he did speak out (mostly many years later in interviews and lawsuit documents) and this would be one of the reasons Axl was so vengeful against Slash in the 2000s - he felt that Slash was manipulating the public opinion against him. That being said, Axl was interested in pushing GN'R forward and not regressing to earlier states, so to speak. Which is why Slash's songs, which ended up on Snakepit, didn't fit with what Axl had in mind. Axl probably wanted the next record to be a natural evolution from the UYIs, like UYIs had developed from Appetite. Which is probably also why he wanted Dave Navarro to replace Gilby (and we heard the result of that on Oh My God):

Axl: But the idea of working with [Navarro] excites me to no end because I still put on Jane's Addiction and it always seems brand new, no matter how many times I hear it. I'd like to try to achieve a fusion of what they were trying and what GNR is doing. I think that blend, if taken seriously and patiently, could be amazing. It could be a fuller thing than anyone's done before. Dave and Slash together could be incredible-two guys very "out there" on their own, working together. […] I think the world kind of missed Dave. I'd really like to help fix that [Hit Parader, June 1993].

Still, Axl was willing to compromise here and try to find some solution Slash would accept, especially when the situation became deadlocked and Slash started to drift away. Axl brought in Zakk Wylde (early 1995, just before Slash took off touring with Snakepit) in the hope that that would click and excite Slash - it didn't. And eventually the music they worked on was, allegedly, purely guitar-driven rockers the type that Slash wanted, presumably not what Axl originally had in mind. Axl adamantly insists this to be the case and has claimed to have the rehearsal tapes that proves this to be true. Interestingly, Axl would also claim, in a lawsuit, that Slash, on three occasions, sabotaged the making of a new record in the vein of Appetite. I think Axl is exaggerating and is taking instances where Slash didn't do what Axl wanted and interpret this as deliberate sabotage from Slash - still, it does lend credence to the claim that the music they were working on was Appetite-styled. 

Anyway, Slash left for Snakepit and was basically out of the band, he just hadn't formally quit. He came back in late 1996 for a few weeks of rehearsals or testing out the waters, but for whatever reasons it didn't work out and he finally quit. Paul was still in the wings then, which probably was one of the reasons Slash couldn't take it, and although Snakepit had not been a commercial success, it had probably been fun for Slash after the stadium touring in 1991-1993 and something he wanted to do more of (whereas Axl still wanted GN'R to grow and become even bigger). If Axl had been more diplomatic and compromised regarding Gilby's replacement, kept Paul away, I think it would have been easier for Slash, but by late 1996 I think it was too late anyway to change the course of history. Slash had already left many months before, he just hadn't realized himself. There was also a powerplay at the time regarding ownership of the band, with Axl indelicately insisting on now owning the band and wanting Duff and Slash on contracts, which probably also killed much of Slash's enthusiasm. 

[evilfacelessturtle]

18 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

It is easy to assign blame for the situation but it is hard to get it right, in my opinion. It is a common belief that Axl wanted to completely change the music of the band at the time and that this pushed Slash away. Slash himself would state this in interviews from 1995 and onwards, which is a really efficient way to turn the fans against Axl (because most fans, after all, were fans of the early GN'R music and would hate to think the band would drastically change their music). It also worked wonders since Axl by then had stopped talking to the press so Slash got to steer the narrative and public opinion. Axl would vehemently deny this on the rare occasions when he did speak out (mostly many years later in interviews and lawsuit documents) and this would be one of the reasons Axl was so vengeful against Slash in the 2000s - he felt that Slash was manipulating the public opinion against him.

That being said, Axl was interested in pushing GN'R forward and not regressing to earlier states, so to speak. Which is why Slash's songs, which ended up on Snakepit, didn't fit with what Axl had in mind. Axl probably wanted the next record to be a natural evolution from the UYIs, like UYIs had developed from Appetite. Which is probably also why he wanted Dave Navarro to replace Gilby (and we heard the result of that on Oh My God):

Doesn't the second half of this confirm that Axl was trying to change the style of the band?

18 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Still, Axl was willing to compromise here and try to find some solution Slash would accept, especially when the situation became deadlocked and Slash started to drift away. Axl brought in Zakk Wylde (early 1995, just before Slash took off touring with Snakepit) in the hope that that would click and excite Slash - it didn't. And eventually the music they worked on was, allegedly, purely guitar-driven rockers the type that Slash wanted, presumably not what Axl originally had in mind. Axl adamantly insists this to be the case and has claimed to have the rehearsal tapes that proves this to be true. Interestingly, Axl would also claim, in a lawsuit, that Slash, on three occasions, sabotaged the making of a new record in the vein of Appetite. I think Axl is exaggerating and is taking instances where Slash didn't do what Axl wanted and interpret this as deliberate sabotage from Slash - still, it does lend credence to the claim that the music they were working on was Appetite-styled. 

Yeah, Slash was writing classic blues rock riffs in contradiction of what Axl wanted. If Axl really wanted to bang out a quick AFD style album like he said, it would have happened. And bringing in another lead guitarist, especially one like Zakk Wylde, is still significantly changing the band.

[SoulMonster]

5 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Doesn't the second half of this confirm that Axl was trying to change the style of the band?

Yeah, Slash was writing classic blues rock riffs in contradiction of what Axl wanted. If Axl really wanted to bang out a quick AFD style album like he said, it would have happened. And bringing in another lead guitarist, especially one like Zakk Wylde, is still significantly changing the band.

I think Axl wanted Guns N' Roses to continue to be musically relevant. Not in the sense that he was chasing fads and trends, but release music that was interesting by trying to be innovative or push the envelope a bit. His quote about Navarro is really telling in that regard. Still, Axl had always been interested in musical trends and new bands, like when he wanted Nirvana, Faith No More and Body Count to open during the Use Your Illusion touring. He had also expressed a desire to make Guns N' Roses into more than a one-trick pony hard rock band, but expand upon its musical repertoire, similarly to what Queen had achieved. It is also likely that he realized that to remain hugely popular, as Guns N' Roses had recently achieved, they needed to reinvent themselves for their next album. The music scene had changed and alternative rock bands were taking over. This can help explain why Axl had been dismissive to the music Slash had worked on. In short, Axl wanted to set the trends, rather than follow them, Slash wanted to release the same type of material over and over again. 

Slash: We look at the music scene in a different way. I see trends come and go and then come back again; that bands today seem to be playing with a 70s flavor a lot of the times. Axl always wants to be a little out there, setting the trends rather than following anything that may already be established. Together, that's how we get the sound of Guns N' Roses. It’s kind of like we try to bring together the best of two worlds [His Parader, August 1995].

Jim Barber (Geffen executive): An artist [like Axl] who's had as much success with Guns N' Roses as he has gets to a point in his career where he can settle into one sound and do it over and over again, usually with diminishing returns. Axl is determined not to do that. There's a sort of ruthlessness about pushing Guns N' Roses to grow, and to find some depth in their music, and to evolve [Rolling Stone, May 2000].

Bringing Zakk Wylde in was probably meant to serve two functions, appease Slash who was a big fan of Wylde and had jammed with him previously and was pissed about the Gilby/Paul situation, and prevent Slash from stagnating as a lead guitarist:

Slash: [Axl] was adamant that he didn't want to write with Gilby, and he wanted to explore some other kind of writing approach. He's always had this vision of teaming me up with a guitar player that's going to stretch my boundaries, whereas I still come from the old Guns N' Roses school where I do what I do and he does what he does [Guitar Player, May 1995].

In the end I think all parties agreed that this didn't work out. It became a lead guitar mess.

Still, if we are to believe Axl (and again, he claims to have the tapes that prove it), he did eventually compromise and agreed that they should make an album based on Slash songs/riffs:

Axl: A lot of people bought that crap and me having gone in other directions seems to many to have verified that. Then you have the mind twisting equally as true horseshit in Slash’s book but I have the rehearsal tapes. There’s nothing but Slash based blues rock and he stopped it to both go solo and try to completely take over Guns. I read all this if Axl would’ve put words and melodies on it could’ve… That was denied and I didn’t walk till several months after having 3 to 4 hour phone conversations nearly every day with Slash trying to reach a compromise. I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off [mygnrforum, December 14, 2008].

Axl would also praise the riffs that Slash brought in, as the meanest and that no one else could have played those riffs the way Slash did. Yet, they weren't even able to get an album based off of these songs released: Slash and Axl were arguing fiercely (with ownership/rights of GN'R likely part of it) and Slash wasn't really interested in Guns anymore:

Slash: I sort of made a half-assed attempt at going back to Guns. But at the end of the day it was half-hearted, and I realized it wasn't going to happen […] [Rolling Stone. October 1999].

[Rovim]

Axl made that comment about making 5 Appetits and living like The Stones. granted, it was just one comment and I don't know exactly what 5 AFD meant to Axl at the time, but to me it could mean that maybe he wasn't against not changing the Gn'R formula.

I don't think Gn'R needed to evolve to still be very popular, even if I personally prefer in the case of Gn'R some kind of evolution, more like Queen. Basically what Axl said he wanted, but it wasn't worth risking what they had for imo, and Axl ended up not having someone like Slash to provide the base of the sound of Gn'R after Izzy left so it ended up being 1 album that lacked a big part of the Gn'R sound, but like I said before, they both were kind of fighting for control and not really on the same page anyway, like rope pulling so maybe the best thing to do was to agree to take a break and come back to it later which never really happened.

[Blackstar]

I think what Axl's claim was regarding not wanting to change the sound (when Slash was still in the band) is that his problem with Slash's Snakepit material wasn't that it was too "traditional" per se, but that it just wasn't good enough because it didn't have the elements that had made AFD an album that, although it was also old school, it had managed to be relevant and contemporary in its time. And, additionally, Axl didn't believe that Gilby was the guy that could provide those elements - but it's a question why he thought Paul Tobias could be that guy (a potential answer is that Paul was someone who Axl could give directions to as well as someone he trusted and was to him something like an Izzy substitute).

We don't know to what extent Axl's claims are true. But I think that this quote from Krys Baratto (one of the musicians Axl recruited to get work done while Duff and Matt were busy with the Neurotic Outsiders - the so called "shadow band" - who acted as a studio bass player between 1995-1997) supports Axl's claim that the demo/rehearsal tapes from 1995-96 sounded like classic GN'R:

The people involved were plenty...Slash, Zack Wylde, I think Izzy. At that time the music was kinda of in the way of Illusions but changed many times as players came in from like Pearl Jam, Nine Inch Nails.... [Krys Baratto, personal communication, August 29, 2020].

So Krys Baratto says that at first the music GN'R was working on at that time was in the vein of UYI, but changed after the band transitioned to NuGnR and people from NIN and Pearl Jam were involved in 1997 (=Chris Vrenna and Dave Abbruzzese).

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Blackstar

[Rovim]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I think what Axl's claim was regarding not wanting to change the sound (when Slash was still in the band) is that his problem with Slash's Snakepit material wasn't that it was too "traditional" per se, but that it just wasn't good enough because it didn't have the elements that had made AFD an album that, although it was also old school, it had managed to be relevant and contemporary in its time. And, additionally, Axl didn't believe that Gilby was the guy that could provide those elements - but it's a question why he thought Paul Tobias could be that guy (a potential answer is that Paul was someone who Axl could give directions to as well as someone he trusted and was to him something like an Izzy substitute).

We don't know to what extent Axl's claims are true. But I think that this quote from Krys Baratto (one of the musicians Axl recruited to get work done while Duff and Matt were busy with the Neurotic Outsiders - the so called "shadow band" - who acted as a studio bass player between 1995-1997) supports Axl's claim that the demo/rehearsal tapes from 1995-96 sounded like classic GN'R:

The people involved were plenty...Slash, Zack Wylde, I think Izzy. At that time the music was kinda of in the way of Illusions but changed many times as players came in from like Pearl Jam, Nine Inch Nails.... [Krys Baratto, personal communication, August 29, 2020].

So Krys Baratto says that at first the music GN'R was working on at that time was in the vein of UYI, but changed after the band transitioned to NuGnR and people from NIN and Pearl Jam were involved in 1997 (=Chris Vrenna and Dave Abbruzzese).

 

Axl and Slash has both kinda contradicted themselves with various statement and just their actions and what they did musically or at least pushed for musically. Like Slash said he would have done whatever Axl wanted in his book industrial, whatever but expressing that he didn't want to do anymore steph ballads and Axl saying that it was Slash that prevented him from doing a more AFD like material. I'm not sure about that either, cause Axl does seem to like his piano driven tunes as well and Slash not so much.

I guess maybe they could have found a middle ground if they were more willing to compromise musically without viewing one another as an obstacle to what they really wanted to do, but I still believe there wasn't a foundation they really felt comfotable with like it was with AFD. The making of UYI was tough enough it seems, so I'm not surprised there was conflict after that and they failed to produce another album together.

[Tomek1985]

Maybe not exacly about Axl, at least the first part but still fits somehow for me. Here's an oldie.

In Poland back in mid-1990s we were informed via some rock magazine that Izzy Stradlin died of a heroin overdose. My friend in highschool belived and was sure 100% that reunion of AFD lineup (known back then as the "original gnr") is impossible because of the "fact" that Izzy is dead. And no internet around to deal with that shit fast

Or classic one, that diva Axl will not play for "polish and jews", ever (they didn't get what "polished jews" is all about, we didn't have any gnr gig until June 2006 in Warsaw, so that bullshit fits altogether somehow). That's classic Axl story that some polish people still belive in. Really.

Edited January 1 by Tomek1985

[grouse]

Gnr once was a somewhat functioning band, the term band has been long gone. They are now very much a marketing machine raking in the almighty dollar and that is okay, It´s just the way things like this go. Do you honestly believe Slash is perfectly happy playing sweet child for the millionth time. I don´t and I can relate to that being a musician myself

[Rovim]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:51 AM, Blackstar said:

I think what Axl's claim was regarding not wanting to change the sound (when Slash was still in the band) is that his problem with Slash's Snakepit material wasn't that it was too "traditional" per se, but that it just wasn't good enough because it didn't have the elements that had made AFD an album that, although it was also old school, it had managed to be relevant and contemporary in its time. And, additionally, Axl didn't believe that Gilby was the guy that could provide those elements - but it's a question why he thought Paul Tobias could be that guy (a potential answer is that Paul was someone who Axl could give directions to as well as someone he trusted and was to him something like an Izzy substitute).

We don't know to what extent Axl's claims are true. But I think that this quote from Krys Baratto (one of the musicians Axl recruited to get work done while Duff and Matt were busy with the Neurotic Outsiders - the so called "shadow band" - who acted as a studio bass player between 1995-1997) supports Axl's claim that the demo/rehearsal tapes from 1995-96 sounded like classic GN'R:

The people involved were plenty...Slash, Zack Wylde, I think Izzy. At that time the music was kinda of in the way of Illusions but changed many times as players came in from like Pearl Jam, Nine Inch Nails.... [Krys Baratto, personal communication, August 29, 2020].

So Krys Baratto says that at first the music GN'R was working on at that time was in the vein of UYI, but changed after the band transitioned to NuGnR and people from NIN and Pearl Jam were involved in 1997 (=Chris Vrenna and Dave Abbruzzese).

 

I was a little drunk yesterday, but after reading this post again, I think it's the best acuurate educational guess as to how it really kinda was. I learn a lot from reading post like these. Great post.

[Trin9498]

By 93, GNR had become too grandiose. People thought the estranged video was too over the top. The dolphins? Lol….no one really cared for the spaghetti incident. Ain’t it fun (which I love, had some air play) was the only popular song. Grunge was dominating the radios….Dave Matthews started to dominate college dorms and GNR was easily forgotten. Who knows what really went down but by all accounts back then, Axl was the bad guy. He was seen as a diva with a huge ego. 

[Rovim]

32 minutes ago, Trin9498 said:

By 93, GNR had become too grandiose. People thought the estranged video was too over the top. The dolphins? Lol….no one really cared for the spaghetti incident. Ain’t it fun (which I love, had some air play) was the only popular song. Grunge was dominating the radios….Dave Matthews started to dominate college dorms and GNR was easily forgotten. Who knows what really went down but by all accounts back then, Axl was the bad guy. He was seen as a diva with a huge ego. 

which he was sometimes, erratic cause he was younger and more out of control. part of what made Gn'R legendary.

[Rovim]

every genre has its time which changes the perception of it in music. something else was coming which at least sounded newer, more efficiant type of rock which was the reflection of the generation at the time, regardless of Gn'R but Gn'R were still considered cool by their many fans around the globe, but they lost Slash and that was essential to most to really consider it Gn'R and when the band was over, something else filled that space, but I believe there was always demand for more Gn'R records and live performances with Axl and Slash in any lineup.

[Trin9498]

47 minutes ago, Rovim said:

which he was sometimes, erratic cause he was younger and more out of control. part of what made Gn'R legendary.

Totally agree

[Ratam]

6 hours ago, Rovim said:

I was a little drunk yesterday, but after reading this post again, I think it's the best acuurate educational guess as to how it really kinda was. I learn a lot from reading post like these. Great post.

Happy New year to you 

On 12/31/2023 at 6:51 AM, Blackstar said:

I think what Axl's claim was regarding not wanting to change the sound (when Slash was still in the band) is that his problem with Slash's Snakepit material wasn't that it was too "traditional" per se, but that it just wasn't good enough because it didn't have the elements that had made AFD an album that, although it was also old school, it had managed to be relevant and contemporary in its time. And, additionally, Axl didn't believe that Gilby was the guy that could provide those elements - but it's a question why he thought Paul Tobias could be that guy (a potential answer is that Paul was someone who Axl could give directions to as well as someone he trusted and was to him something like an Izzy substitute).

We don't know to what extent Axl's claims are true. But I think that this quote from Krys Baratto (one of the musicians Axl recruited to get work done while Duff and Matt were busy with the Neurotic Outsiders - the so called "shadow band" - who acted as a studio bass player between 1995-1997) supports Axl's claim that the demo/rehearsal tapes from 1995-96 sounded like classic GN'R:

The people involved were plenty...Slash, Zack Wylde, I think Izzy. At that time the music was kinda of in the way of Illusions but changed many times as players came in from like Pearl Jam, Nine Inch Nails.... [Krys Baratto, personal communication, August 29, 2020].

So Krys Baratto says that at first the music GN'R was working on at that time was in the vein of UYI, but changed after the band transitioned to NuGnR and people from NIN and Pearl Jam were involved in 1997 (=Chris Vrenna and Dave Abbruzzese).

 

Happy New Year to you 

[evilfacelessturtle]

Again, the fact that what Slash was writing with GNR was typical Slash style stuff is not in dispute. Slash wouldn't have known where to even begin writing NIN style stuff. Anything he writes, especially to outsiders, is going to sound like AFD or UYI.

I straight up do not believe Axl when he says " I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off "

I'm supposed to believe Slash wrote lyrics and demanded Axl sing them? Slash didn't even write the lyrics for the majority of 5 O'Clock Somewhere. And he's never been the type to make ultimatums and be confrontational like that. That's why he used Snakepit to avoid Axl, and why he gave up on their relationship so quickly.

Quote

Axl would also praise the riffs that Slash brought in, as the meanest and that no one else could have played those riffs the way Slash did. Yet, they weren't even able to get an album based off of these songs released

And because Axl wasn't just going to use those riffs as-is.

Slash also said, as soon after the split as 2000, that he was open to reforming for an AFD style album. The idea that he would have shot that down in 1995 is silly.

"The guitarist is quoted as saying he would play with Guns N' Roses again if it were to be a real Guns N' Roses recording. It would take, he claims, nothing more than a phone call."

On 12/31/2023 at 4:51 AM, Blackstar said:

So Krys Baratto says that at first the music GN'R was working on at that time was in the vein of UYI

My point is that just because Slash was writing what he always did in those rehearsals, doesn't mean it was sanctioned by Axl. And while he may have liked and complimented some of it, just as with 5 O'Clock Somewhere, he would have only wanted to use bits and pieces, molded to fit into his idea of a new style for Guns.

[axlvai]

What a good read here. Thnks!!

2 things... gnr leaves the throne in the end of 1993 with TSI. Sadly (for the band.... or the fans really) a lot of great albums came out, like Nevermind and Unplugged, Korn, Core (stp), Ballbreaker, Nutshell (AIC).... and some of other ones with no fn signal of tangible work (remember that era with no internet and a lot of rumors? Ha! Sucks!).

With all things considered... they could have done 2 goddamn albums with 2 fn styles easily. And a FUCKING MTV UNPLUGGED.

Goddamn.

Now. Hoping to hear b4 to die a good demos with fn vocals from that era.

 

 

[Ericstacey]

On 1/1/2024 at 7:43 AM, Trin9498 said:

By 93, GNR had become too grandiose. People thought the estranged video was too over the top. The dolphins? Lol….no one really cared for the spaghetti incident. Ain’t it fun (which I love, had some air play) was the only popular song. Grunge was dominating the radios….Dave Matthews started to dominate college dorms and GNR was easily forgotten. Who knows what really went down but by all accounts back then, Axl was the bad guy. He was seen as a diva with a huge ego. 

Agree with a lot of this-even aside from grunge, by the mid 90's, radio was dominated by stuff Collective Soul, Gin Blossoms, Bush, Oasis.  The rock station in Cleveland at the time went totally alternative and never played GNR