Robin Finck: opinions? Is he a good guitarist?

[Pishy]

7 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

And yet...GNR endure.   When you stack NIN and GNR up against each other like that NIN comes out the winner, on paper at least.  But who's winning currently in terms of 'brand durability' - Billy Corgan's term.  I'm playing devil's advocate here.

I'm a NIN fan too, just I think your post has raised an interesting question.  What is a successful career anyway?

NIN and Trent can win all the accolades and have all the credibility all day long, but mention Nine Inch Nails/Trent Reznor to the average Jane/Joe on the street and you're going to get a lot of quizzical looks, particularly from the millennials.  Mention Guns N' Roses/Axl Rose and you'd be hard pressed to find a person for whom that name doesn't at least ring a cultural bell; they might not know the music, but they'll know the name.  The name is recognised among both young and old and across various walks of life, as the concert demographics have shown.  That's a pretty big achievement in itself (to the tune of $400 mil) especially when you look at the 'musical' stats.  I'm thinking this is what Billy Corgan meant by brand durability.

So to be considered successful, is it more important to be credible, or to be recognisable? 

N.B. I don't think Axl wanted to be Trent.  Clearly, he admired the guy; he admired lots of musicians and more often then not tried to poach them from other bands to join his. ^^ I don't think he really knew who he was, or what he wanted a lot of the time...

A band/singer/musician being known as a brand is not an accomplishment, but a disgrace . And no, it most certainly doesn't define success unless you're talking about teens/early 20s crowd that have now been conditioned this way and don't know any better, and that's due to a much larger project that goes beyond the scope of this topic .

Yes , branding was always there but not in this acute phase . An artist with talent, is supposed to lead with their talent and let the music speak, becoming a brand is becoming a joke . The vast majority of those getting record deals for some time now and who are best known, are brands and have no talent . They must be a brand to give the illusion there is something the consumer needs. Without brand, Beiber, Beyoncé and all the other garbage acts wouldn't exist. It's all manufactured , it's the new way. And ask really young people , and older dumb ones, and they are only interested in the brand , if what they consume can't be identified by brand , in the immediate, by everyone else supposedly watching them , they don't want it. 

but believe me , I'm well aware how things are defined these days , a person like kim k is considered successful by a dumbed down population because of money and being a brand . 

NIN is not a brand and I can't expend on that past the perfect job @tremolo did already . I don't think Axl aimed to become what he did in the end , a brand , he wanted to do much more but as it was said , GnR was a different beast and writing /creating only worked with all the members

Axl is not a maestro, he is not Trent but clearly he lost the plot and was encouraged to believe that. He also wanted to be like Freddie but missed the part where Freddie and his fellow musicians were all equals and were tight. They all created and supported one another . Axl couldn't be either of these artists for the reasons already given by tremolo 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Pishy

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

I would never argue that GNR were immense compared to NIN, who got a big following in the hight of its career, but very small compared to GNR.

Despite that, Reznor has worked hard to remain relevant, and he has succeeded, he has expanded his career and has been a pioneer in different aspects.

Axl still has his legacy and following, but most of it is based on his studio work until 1991. 1991-2008 nothing. CD is finally released, and almost 10 years have gone by.

Art is 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. YOU HAVE TO FUCKING WORK. Put the fucking effort in it, you owe it to yourself. As popular and profitable as this tour is, we can safely say that the quality hasn’t been there. If the “big three” are back after so long –one of the most desired comebacks in rock history– you have to go full blast, fucking crush it every night. It feels half-assed, and that’s a shame, cause we all know what he’s capable of. Maybe his heart is not in it anymore, then he should call it quits, there’s nothing wrong with that.

I do hope that he gets his shit together and stops wasting oportunities.

I also can understand you not liking NIN, it’s a matter of taste. BUT if I allow myself to give an advice: open your musical horizons. There’s so much great music beyond classic rock. It’s not cheating if you listen to other genres.

You still talk about GNR like it all depends on Axl and that's not the case. And I have to disagree... How many local bands or artists work hard all their lives but never become superstars or stars at all.

NIN is somewhat a niche. Buckethead as example works harder than anyone but he will never be as successful as big bands like Guns. He is a guitarfreak and remains in his niche. 

How many people that aren't into rock know GNR? Many I would say. They just have recognizable songs.

TR is very creative, talented and buzy. People that aren't into rock music might have heard the name Nine Inch Nails but I doubt most of them would recognize them as NIN when hearing their music.

GNR is on a completely other level. 

I'm very open minded when it comes to music and although my favourite genres are hard rock and classic rock I like other genres too. I even like some artists in genres that aren't mine. I have to like their music, that's all but NIN don't give me that. 

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

I would never argue that GNR were immense compared to NIN, who got a big following in the hight of its career, but very small compared to GNR.

Despite that, Reznor has worked hard to remain relevant, and he has succeeded, he has expanded his career and has been a pioneer in different aspects.

Axl still has his legacy and following, but most of it is based on his studio work until 1991. 1991-2008 nothing. CD is finally released, and almost 10 years have gone by.

Art is 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. YOU HAVE TO FUCKING WORK. Put the fucking effort in it, you owe it to yourself. As popular and profitable as this tour is, we can safely say that the quality hasn’t been there. If the “big three” are back after so long –one of the most desired comebacks in rock history– you have to go full blast, fucking crush it every night. It feels half-assed, and that’s a shame, cause we all know what he’s capable of. Maybe his heart is not in it anymore, then he should call it quits, there’s nothing wrong with that.

I do hope that he gets his shit together and stops wasting oportunities.

I also can understand you not liking NIN, it’s a matter of taste. BUT if I allow myself to give an advice: open your musical horizons. There’s so much great music beyond classic rock. It’s not cheating if you listen to other genres.

You still talk about GNR like it all depends on Axl and that's not the case. And I have to disagree... How many local bands or artists work hard all their lives but never become superstars or stars at all.

NIN is somewhat a niche. Buckethead as example works harder than anyone but he will never be as successful as big bands like Guns. He is a guitarfreak and remains in his niche. 

How many people that aren't into rock know GNR? Many I would say. They just have recognizable songs.

TR is very creative, talented and buzy. People that aren't into rock music might have heard the name Nine Inch Nails but I doubt most of them would recognize them as NIN when hearing their music.

GNR is on a completely other level. 

I'm very open minded when it comes to music and although my favourite genres are hard rock and classic rock I like other genres too. I even like some artists in genres that aren't mine. I have to like their music, that's all but NIN don't give me that. But I can understand why people like them. They're kind of interesting. 

[SWINGTRADER]

 This thread is hilarious.  

 

It turned from a Robin Finck thread to a GNR sucks and is insignificant compared to NIN thread.

 

I wonder if AC/DC fans or Metallica fans post such nonsense. You will never see Metallica fans ever say shit like " Korn is bigger than Metallica".

 

 

 

[Sosso]

12 minutes ago, SWINGTRADER said:

 This thread is hilarious.  

 

It turned from a Robin Finck thread to a GNR sucks and is insignificant compared to NIN thread.

 

I wonder if AC/DC fans or Metallica fans post such nonsense. You will never see Metallica fans ever say shit like " Korn is bigger than Metallica".

 

 

 

That's the typical nihilism among die hard GN'R fans due to the lack of new material. I can understand that

[Fashionista]

I wish some songs on CD had just had two players on them (lead and rhythm) so we could more easily hear their differing techniques and styles...Outside of Bumble's rhythm and solos and Bucket's solos it's hard for me to tell who plays what (outside of Robin's solo on TIL).

I wish some songs on CD had just had two players on them (lead and rhythm) so we could more easily hear their differing techniques and styles...Outside of Bumble's rhythm and solos and Bucket's solos it's hard for me to tell who plays what (outside of Robin's solo on TIL).

I wish some songs on CD had just had two players on them (lead and rhythm) so we could more easily hear their differing techniques and styles...Outside of Bumble's rhythm and solos and Bucket's solos it's hard for me to tell who plays what (outside of Robin's solo on TIL).

[Blackstar]

10 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

N.B. I don't think Axl wanted to be Trent.  Clearly, he admired the guy; he admired lots of musicians and more often then not tried to poach them from other bands to join his. ^^ I don't think he really knew who he was, or what he wanted a lot of the time...

I completely agree with this. Axl didn't want to be a multi-instrumentalist - hell, he's been insecure even about his skills on his main instrument, the piano, and hired someone else to play it. He didn't want to be a sole or multi composer either. He always wanted to have a band, in the way he perceives it (which is his own "strange" way, but it's not a NIN type of band) to be inspired by with himself being the one who has the vision and decides the direction.

It's one of the reasons he didn't go solo or form the "Axl Rose Band". Regardless of how any of us sees it, from Axl's POV GnR has been always a band where everybody contributes and in all his interviews he's struggled to convince people that it is so.

[Fashionista]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I completely agree with this. Axl didn't want to be a multi-instrumentalist - hell, he's been insecure even about his skills on his main instrument, the piano, and hired someone else to play it. He didn't want to be a sole or multi composer either. He always wanted to have a band, in the way he perceives it (which is his own "strange" way, but it's not a NIN type of band) to be inspired by with himself being the one who has the vision and decides the direction.

It's one of the reasons he didn't go solo or form the "Axl Rose Band". Regardless of how any of us sees it, from Axl's POV GnR has been always a band where everybody contributes and in all his interviews he's struggled to convince people that it is so.

The problem is that at the end of the day, no matter who contributes what, it is ultimately Axl deciding how that part will be played, what will make the final cut, who will feature or not, how and by whom it will be mixed, mastered, produced, etc. You can't call it a band when only one person has the final say over everything.

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

The problem is that at the end of the day, no matter who contributes what, it is ultimately Axl deciding how that part will be played, what will make the final cut, who will feature or not, how and by whom it will be mixed, mastered, produced, etc. You can't call it a band when only one person has the final say over everything.

Yes, because NuGnR was his band, he was the sole owner of it. In his mind, however, solo means that someone does it all, otherwise it's a band.

[RussTCB]

Just wanted to add to this thread that @downzy and I went on @Gambit83's podcast today (Appetite For Distortion) and I proclaimed my love for Robin yet again. It was met with the usual and expected reaction 

Episode should be out soon. If you haven't checked out this podcast, you should!

[Fashionista]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, because NuGnR was his band, he was the sole owner of it. In his mind, however, solo means that someone does it all, otherwise it's a band.

Yup. Another problem was that he never really let any of the members shine. He never took a single band photo with the 2002 lineup. He never gave a single band interview with any lineup (Yes, he had a joint interview with DJ but that's it). He never gave the public the opportunity to see NuGNR as more than "Axl and some random guys". I mean, even on the record, I doubt any casual listener could identify who is playing what on CD. We're hardcore fans so, we'll know "Oh, that solo is by Bumblefoot/Bucket" etc, but a regular person would have no clue. You can't have five guitarists all playing on the same track and expect the public to get it or recognize who is playing what. 

Another issue was band identity. All Classic GN'R lineups had pretty much the same sort of image and thus brand identity. Izzy and Gilby had the same playing style and pretty similar image. Steven and Matt were both blonde drummers with permed hair. It's hard to build a band identity when one guy is wearing Jerseys and Cornrows, the other guy looks like a Goth, the other looks like a Punk, and so on

It's a shame because Axl had a lot of talent on his hands with every lineup. Even the Ashba lineup could've done cool stuff I think.

3 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Just wanted to add to this thread that @downzy and I went on @Gambit83's podcast today (Appetite For Distortion) and I proclaimed my love for Robin yet again. It was met with the usual and expected reaction 

Episode should be out soon. If you haven't checked out this podcast, you should!

I have a question for you as a big Robin fan:
The whole Robin/Bucket dynamic...I have read they didn't get along as both felt each was in the other's territory, sharing lead guitar duties....What do you think should've been about that situation? I mean both were massively talented but do you think they should've been presented differently? 

[downzy]

Is he a good guitarist?  Sure. 

Would I take him over Slash, Buckethead, or Ron?  No.

[Fashionista]

It would've been cool to see Slash and Robin in the same band, Slash on lead and Robin on rhythm.

[RussTCB]

2 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

I have a question for you as a big Robin fan:
The whole Robin/Bucket dynamic...I have read they didn't get along as both felt each was in the other's territory, sharing lead guitar duties....What do you think should've been about that situation? I mean both were massively talented but do you think they should've been presented differently? 

That's a REALLY good question actually and I'm kind of struggling to come up with a good answer off the top of my head.

With absolutely no disrespect to Bucket, I have to say that I think it's clear that I'm a much bigger fan of Robin than him. Having said that, I think Bucket's work on Chinese is excellent. I know this is just scratching the surface, but the classical guitar solo in ITW? The second solo in TWaT? Come on now, that's genius shit. 

I like Robin more overall though and if I had my choice of one over the other, I'd take Robin all day every day and twice on Sunday. At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to egos and styles. There's just no way to get egos to work together in the end, so I guess my main answer is: nothing should have / could have been done about that :/

[Fashionista]

2 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

That's a REALLY good question actually and I'm kind of struggling to come up with a good answer off the top of my head.

With absolutely no disrespect to Bucket, I have to say that I think it's clear that I'm a much bigger fan of Robin than him. Having said that, I think Bucket's work on Chinese is excellent. I know this is just scratching the surface, but the classical guitar solo in ITW? The second solo in TWaT? Come on now, that's genius shit. 

I like Robin more overall though and if I had my choice of one over the other, I'd take Robin all day every day and twice on Sunday. At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to egos and styles. There's just no way to get egos to work together in the end, so I guess my main answer is: nothing should have / could have been done about that :/

I think a way of working around it could've been, at least live, having Robin and Bucket be the only guitarists, sort of like Izzy and Slash were in the early days where they traded parts. I personally never liked the three guitarist arrangement in GN'R...It's nothing against Paul or Richard but I feel like they should've been studio/songwriting guys the way say West Arkeen was. Not official members on stage. Having Robin and Bucket presented as the two guys, and trading leads and such...Maybe that would've worked better. Also their "weird" image would've come across better with them being the only guitarists...Having a third regular rock guy on guy makes it confusing from an imagery perspective. But Robin and Bucket together create an avant-garde look.

[Nicklord]

A bit offtopic but I always thought that having DJ Ashba playing some of the biggest solos with Bumble in the band is really really really disrespectful to Bumblefoot 

[AlterL]

39 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

A bit offtopic but I always thought that having DJ Ashba playing some of the biggest solos with Bumble in the band is really really really disrespectful to Bumblefoot 

Same could be said of Robin playing while Bucket is in the band. Personally the only thing that annoyed me was that they sort of sold him as the lead guitarist of that lineup instead of Bumblefoot who was more talented in my opinion.

[gabfm]

I love Robin Finck's style. His melodic solos are great, they have that 70's feel. He could play any Zeppelin solo without trouble.

I completely agree with someone who said heavy songs are not his strength. And that's what Slash could do, mix feeling with heavy stuff.

[RussTCB]

1 hour ago, Nicklord said:

A bit offtopic but I always thought that having DJ Ashba playing some of the biggest solos with Bumble in the band is really really really disrespectful to Bumblefoot 

Don't even get me started. 

[Free Bird]

5 hours ago, tremolo said:

I know what you mean, but it’s not the case with guns. Guns didn’t get anywhere post 1993 because of Axl, and what we have today, almost 10 years after CD is the same: someone isn’t putting the effort.

But it doesn't matter considering for what they achieved in their prime. 

The Beatles, while for other reasons, head about the same time frame as Guns. Yet nobody would argue they were to short-existing for being relevant.

Zeppelin is a similar example. Ok, both bands released more music during their time but it's not that they did anything relevant after their prime. Yet nobody questions their status in rock history.

However, I think we've got such to varying viewpoints on this topic so we have to agree to disagree. It's about opinions. Somebody respects something more than the other

Edited November 20, 2017 by Free Bird

[Blackstar]

On 11/20/2017 at 2:37 AM, Fashionista said:

Another issue was band identity. All Classic GN'R lineups had pretty much the same sort of image and thus brand identity. Izzy and Gilby had the same playing style and pretty similar image. Steven and Matt were both blonde drummers with permed hair. It's hard to build a band identity when one guy is wearing Jerseys and Cornrows, the other guy looks like a Goth, the other looks like a Punk, and so on

Interesting point. I think the diversity of the image or lack of identity, as you put it, was part of Axl's whole approach in the CD era: a pastiche of musical styles, patching parts and layers, a concept-no concept etc; and with the image, respectively, everyone brought their own identity. It's a totally post-modern approach. Image wise the band had a clear identity till the AFD era. In the Illusions era, Axl's style, although not incompatible, stood out while the rest of the band continued being in jeans/leather.

He's also probably been thinking, since the CD era, in a similar way as Billy Corgan does: that the name of a band represents something on its own and above the people that are in it, the musical direction or the image, like a sort of abstract idea or a form (if you look at it philosophically or romantically) or a brand that stands regardless of the aforementioned (if you look at it cynically from a business POV)

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Blackstar
added

[double talkin jive mfkr]

Axl has completely lost his ear for music. This is evident since about 2002 

[BorderlineCrazy]

On 19/11/2017 at 9:41 PM, downzy said:

Is he a good guitarist?  Sure. 

Would I take him over Slash, Buckethead, or Ron?  No.

You would take Bumblefoot over Robin? Really?

Damn, I really wanna listen to you and @RussTCB talking about this on the podcast 

[downzy]

37 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

You would take Bumblefoot over Robin? Really?

Damn, I really wanna listen to you and @RussTCB talking about this on the podcast 

Depends on the context.  If it were just a matter of songwriting, I'd take Robin.  But in terms of their live performances; Bumblefoot all day long.  

I always hated the way Robin played the classic material and never a huge fan of his style.  His SCOM solos were the antithesis of what the solo should be: not smooth, staccato, a lot of missed notes that needed bending.  I know Russ disagrees, but Slash's "take" on CD material is, in my opinion, vastly superior to what Robin originally laid down.

Russ and I (along with almost everyone else) have always been at odds over Robin.  It wasn't covered much in the podcast, but for the umpteenth time Russ was reminded how much I disagree with him on this :P.

[DieselDaisy]

I actually would say that was where the entire problem occurred with Guns, Rose beginning to see himself in the 'Trent Reznor role' for Guns N' Roses and repudiating the Appetite era democratic quartet, musically and politically. That is what buggered up the band. 

[Sosso]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

I actually would say that was where the entire problem occurred with Guns, Rose beginning to see himself in the 'Trent Reznor role' for Guns N' Roses and repudiating the Appetite era democratic quartet, musically and politically. That is what buggered up the band. 

You mean Quintet?

Edited November 21, 2017 by Sosso