Robin Finck: opinions? Is he a good guitarist?

[Towelie]

17 hours ago, downzy said:

Depends on the context.  If it were just a matter of songwriting, I'd take Robin.  But in terms of their live performances; Bumblefoot all day long. 

Again, what's this wonderful songwriting you refer to with Robin? Are we really ranking him as a top songwriter just because he co-wrote Better? As far as we know, that is the only song Finck has ever had a hand in writing, whereas Ron has written numerous albums, both solo and with his bands. It may not be to everybody's taste, but it certainly beats Robin Finck's measley sole songwriting credit.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Towelie

[BorderlineCrazy]

16 hours ago, downzy said:

Depends on the context.  If it were just a matter of songwriting, I'd take Robin.  But in terms of their live performances; Bumblefoot all day long.  

I always hated the way Robin played the classic material and never a huge fan of his style.  His SCOM solos were the antithesis of what the solo should be: not smooth, staccato, a lot of missed notes that needed bending.  I know Russ disagrees, but Slash's "take" on CD material is, in my opinion, vastly superior to what Robin originally laid down.

Russ and I (along with almost everyone else) have always been at odds over Robin.  It wasn't covered much in the podcast, but for the umpteenth time Russ was reminded how much I disagree with him on this :P.

I agree on that. If I had to hire one of them to play GNR material, I'd go with Bumblefoot (he was pretty terrible at some songs in 2006 but improved after) but if it was to create something new, I'd pick Robin in a heartbeat.

I don't fully agree about Slash being superior at the CD material (and I love Slash more than his children do ). I like his Better solo better than Robin's but TWAT feels like a shaky performance of Robin's solo and This I Love is pretty much hit or miss, never know what you're gonna get. So far I'd stick with Robin's solo on This I Love and I'm not sure his Street Of Dreams solo can be improved.

All things considered, I think Russ is insane but that's mostly based on his opinion on Frank Ferrer 

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

That point doesn’t even make sense. The Beatles and Zep kept on releasing music while they were together, they didn’t sleep on their laurels and tour the exact same setlist for 12 years like gnr have. They kept  on working, recording, releasing new material, touring to promote their new releases, etc. And the Beatles pretty much kept being on their prime for most of their career.

Both bands, The Beatles and Zep are light years ahead of gnr in every department: body of work, professionalism, cultural impact, level of influence, etc.

You said it yourself, WHILE THEY WERE TOGETHER. This is the first GNR tour without an album to support, it's not like they've been doing a greatest hits tour forever. Still, I don't think there's new music coming any time soon which sucks (and will eventually become embarrasing) but so far there's not much to criticize on that regard.

5 minutes ago, Towelie said:

Again, what's this wonderful songwriting you refer to with Robin? Are we really ranking him as a top songwriter just because he co-wrote Better? As far as we know, that is the only song Finck has ever had a hand in writing, whereas Ron has written numerous albums, both solo and with his bands. It may not be to everybody's taste, but it certainly beats Robin Finck's measley sole songwriting credit.

There are two things to say about this. One is, there are two different songwriting credits. The one in the booklet and the one in ASCAP's website. Here you can check Robin's credits according to ASCAP: https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/writer/511039107/FINCK ROBERT JOHN

The other thing is, I don't know if Downzy is talking about writing actual songs or maybe just writing solos for songs. If CD's booklet is correct, writing one song really doesn't make you a brilliant songwriter. That said, I like Better way more than any of the songs I've heard from Bumblefoot in his different projects. And if it comes to solos, I've never heard a solo by Bumblefoot that blew my mind, I like Robin's solos on CD more than anything I heard from him.

[Free Bird]

2 hours ago, tremolo said:

That point doesn’t even make sense. The Beatles and Zep kept on releasing music while they were together, they didn’t sleep on their laurels and tour the exact same setlist for 12 years like gnr have. They kept  on working, recording, releasing new material, touring to promote their new releases, etc. And the Beatles pretty much kept being on their prime for most of their career.

Both bands, The Beatles and Zep are light years ahead of gnr in every department: body of work, professionalism, cultural impact, level of influence, etc.

I'm talking about GNR, not Axl's solo project. 5 releases in 10 years without Live Like A Suizide. 4 out of 5 releases are classics. That's not bad at all and it's the reason they became the biggest band in the world. It's the reason their reunion was highly anticipated and such a success 20 years after their breakup.

You don't have to diminish their success. 

 

[downzy]

4 hours ago, Towelie said:

Again, what's this wonderful songwriting you refer to with Robin? Are we really ranking him as a top songwriter just because he co-wrote Better? As far as we know, that is the only song Finck has ever had a hand in writing, whereas Ron has written numerous albums, both solo and with his bands. It may not be to everybody's taste, but it certainly beats Robin Finck's measley sole songwriting credit.

Robin's solos on TIL and TWAT, along with TWAT >>>>>> all of Bumblefoot's material. 

Not saying he's a top songwriter, but for me he's shown far better songwriting proficiency than Ron, who I find to be an average song writer at best.  I've never felt the need to listen to anything Ron has written more than once.  Can't say the same about Robin.  Again, this is subjective; I'm sure there are many who prefer Ron's work.  Just not me.  

[AxlRoseCDII]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Robin's solos on TIL and TWAT, along with Better >>>>>> all of Bumblefoot's material. 

Not saying he's a top songwriter, but for me he's shown far better songwriting proficiency than Ron, who I find to be an average song writer at best.  I've never felt the need to listen to anything Ron has written more than once.  Can't say the same about Robin.  Again, this is subjective; I'm sure there are many who prefer Ron's work.  Just not me.  

I agree. Ron is one of the most talented guitarists in the world and can play any song blindfolded but can’t write a good song to save his life. I’ve tried listening to his solo albums but they’re all average to me. 

[Free Bird]

4 hours ago, tremolo said:

You are being too generous.

TSI? Is a cover album. It is part of their discography, but it’s not gnr material, and Lies hace a good handful of covers and a few beautiful originals... it’s an EP.

I do not diminish their success, that would be stupid because we all know how successful they were, they were the biggest band in the world in 91, their debut album was perfect for the times, and UYI is an incredible piece of work –which i consider superior to AFD for the artistic integrity involved.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I love this band, I even love CD and that whole era because it was full of mysticism in an era where we were being bombarded with huge piles of steaming shit from the radio. But I expect more of them. It’s sad that they’re half assing everything and that no matter how successful this tour is, it really feels like it’s going on for all the wrong reasons.

 

some professionalism, gratitude and integrity would go a long way.

TSI is a cover album but it's a release. I like that album though I don't say it's a classic. 

Lies... EP or not... (LZs discography has barely more songs on each LP they released) has eight songs with two covers. Two... not a handful. It's a short little RnR record and I would rank it over the Illusions any day of the week. 

To say GNR did not release enough material before splitting up is ridiculous to say the least and that's exactly what you're saying when argue this is a cover album and that's an EP.

If you rate Axl as a sole artist then I'll give you that. After creating the new band he failed, didn't deliver anymore.

But GNR as a band were superior than that. Period. 

Let's see what's happening after this tour is over.

[ToonGuns]

2 hours ago, Free Bird said:

 

Lies... EP or not... (LZs discography has barely more songs on each LP they released) has eight songs with two covers. Two... not a handful. It's a short little RnR record and I would rank it over the Illusions any day of the week. 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but i think we need to review Lies accurately for what it was.

Of the 8 songs 4 of them had already been released 2 years prior, 3 of them were covers (I count the Hollywood Rose cover as there are other versions of that song), and of the 4 "new" songs even one of them was an alternative version of a song released on Appetite.

If GnR released an album this week that consisted of 4 Live Era songs, a re-recording of a song we already have, and 3 new songs, I don't think we could legitimately call it an album. As you suggested it is an EP and I've always struggled with it a little as I think they could have done more with it.

Led Zep's albums might have only had 8 songs on them but usually 2-3 of the songs would be 8 mins long and it was all new music.

On topic - yes Robin is a good guitar player and I vastly prefered him over DJ. I didn't like his muted note approach to solos such as SCOM and if it was a choice between him and Bumble I'd choose Bumble.

Edited November 22, 2017 by ToonGuns
edit

[Towelie]

6 hours ago, downzy said:

Robin's solos on TIL and TWAT, along with TWAT >>>>>> all of Bumblefoot's material. 

Not saying he's a top songwriter, but for me he's shown far better songwriting proficiency than Ron, who I find to be an average song writer at best.  I've never felt the need to listen to anything Ron has written more than once.  Can't say the same about Robin.  Again, this is subjective; I'm sure there are many who prefer Ron's work.  Just not me.  

Writing a guitar solo is not the same thing as coming up with an entire chord progression, melody line, harmony parts and the overall structure of an entire song.

Robin doing a few tasty guitar solos on ChiDem does not make him a songwriter.

Irrespective of whether you rate Ron's material outside of Guns, he IS a songwriter, who has multiple credits to his name. Robin's only songwriting credit is Better.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Towelie

[Towelie]

And I would say all of these Ron-penned songs are superior to anything Robin Finck has ever done (although I'm sure you won't bother listening to them, as it sounds like you've already made your mind up about Bumblefoot):

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Towelie

[felixGNR]

9 hours ago, downzy said:

Robin's solos on TIL and TWAT, along with TWAT >>>>>> all of Bumblefoot's material. 

Not saying he's a top songwriter, but for me he's shown far better songwriting proficiency than Ron, who I find to be an average song writer at best.  I've never felt the need to listen to anything Ron has written more than once.  Can't say the same about Robin.  Again, this is subjective; I'm sure there are many who prefer Ron's work.  Just not me.  

maybe you like it more, 2 kind of good solos in some  8 years or so of work, that's bad, not only that, maybe those 2 are the best solos of his career, i don't like bumble, but he is a most complete package, im sure with his playing ability he can come with something like better,til, twat,

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

But Lies IS an EP, and TSI? IS a cover album, anyone can record and release a cover album, there’s nothing special in it.

And I never said they didn’t release enough material between 87 and 93-95. I’m talking about the whole career of the band, which extends to 2017, like it or not

So what happened last year was the reunion of a existing band? 

No, it was the reunion of GNR. The real GNR that Axl choosed to split up in the mid 90s, before he founded his solo band. 

 

[Free Bird]

7 hours ago, ToonGuns said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but i think we need to review Lies accurately for what it was.

Of the 8 songs 4 of them had already been released 2 years prior, 3 of them were covers (I count the Hollywood Rose cover as there are other versions of that song), and of the 4 "new" songs even one of them was an alternative version of a song released on Appetite.

If GnR released an album this week that consisted of 4 Live Era songs, a re-recording of a song we already have, and 3 new songs, I don't think we could legitimately call it an album. As you suggested it is an EP and I've always struggled with it a little as I think they could have done more with it.

Led Zep's albums might have only had 8 songs on them but usually 2-3 of the songs would be 8 mins long and it was all new music.

On topic - yes Robin is a good guitar player and I vastly prefered him over DJ. I didn't like his muted note approach to solos such as SCOM and if it was a choice between him and Bumble I'd choose Bumble.

I don't count Reckless Life as a cover the same way I don't count Anything Goes as a cover. And I choosed to list Lies as one record but refused to list LLAS at all.

You can turn it around as you want, then we have 2 EPs and 4 albums (including the cover album)

The Lies version of You're Crazy is the original recording even if AFD was released prior to Lies. They just sped it up for obvious reasons. AFD should be 100% hard rock.

 

[downzy]

7 hours ago, Towelie said:

Writing a guitar solo is not the same thing as coming up with an entire chord progression, melody line, harmony parts and the overall structure of an entire song.

Robin doing a few tasty guitar solos on ChiDem does not make him a songwriter.

Irrespective of whether you rate Ron's material outside of Guns, he IS a songwriter, who has multiple credits to his name. Robin's only songwriting credit is Better.

I don’t see much difference between a guitar solo like what we hear in TWAT and TIL and a melody line. 

Chord progressions... please.  Most GNR songs don’t involve the most complex chord progressions (save for a few exceptions).  Many of the most iconic songs written are your basic three chord variety.  

Moreover, I’ll always take quality over quantity.  I’ll take one great song over a thousand average and forgettable tracks. I think most people feel the same way. 

[downzy]

4 hours ago, felixGNR said:

maybe you like it more, 2 kind of good solos in some  8 years or so of work, that's bad, not only that, maybe those 2 are the best solos of his career, i don't like bumble, but he is a most complete package, im sure with his playing ability he can come with something like better,til, twat,

Care to prove your point?  Better, TIL, and Robin’s solo in TWAT are the album’s highlights for me. What would you consider or could provide that would indicate Ron a better writer?  

There are likely thousands of guitar players who are better technically than Slash, but only a handful on the planet who can write and create songs/riffs/solos that have come from his mind/guitar.  Technical proficiency in no way equals creative prowess. There’s a reason why there are thousands of bar bands who can play the shit out of covers but can’t write for shit. 

[downzy]

7 hours ago, Towelie said:

And I would say all of these Ron-penned songs are superior to anything Robin Finck has ever done (although I'm sure you won't bother listening to them, as it sounds like you've already made your mind up about Bumblefoot):

 

I’ve heard them all before and my response to all is meh...

Ron is an extraordinary talent in terms of playing ability. His ability to write non-generic and attention catching material?  Not so much, at least in my opinion.  Whereas with Robin, I’d prefer hearing what he wrote over hearing him play songs written by someone else. 

[appetite4illusions]

I really wish Robin would present his solo album.

It would be the be all to end all as far as gauging his true ability as a writer/player.

What we've seen is flashes of a very promising guitarist. 

To me, it's ridiculous that we're reduced to focusing our microscope on minor parts of songs. Parts that have a great deal of soul and flair, but are no way meat and potatoes.

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

No, it was just another lineup of a band that hasn’t managed to remain consistent. The big deal is that 2 old classic members came back.

No reunion. They bullshited u with that. It’s just duff and slash in the fold, plus 3 other band members. Based on your own words, that doesn’t qualify as gnr either. Pick a side, you can’t have it both ways.

Oh I can, it's one thing to replace band members and another to try to make a industrial project out of the biggest hard rock band on planet earth. Now they did clearly a step back to the origins. And just because someone ignores the facts of the band's history and repeats the bullshit of "same band" and "just another lineup" all day long, facts will remain facts. The band legaly broke up and Axl founded his own band that followed a completely different direction.

However, you won't change your opinion and I won't change mine. We're getting nowhere here so we should stop spamming this topic.

 

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

5 minutes ago, tremolo said:

And it’s not spam, we’re just having a debate/conversation from different perspectives, and that’s what makes it fun and interesting. Talking/debating only with people that share the same view is boring, too easy and comfortable and not very different from a circle jerk.

Well, I for one, am thoroughly enjoying this thread.  Haven't had time to participate in the convo, but I have been reading all the new posts.  Some really interesting points being raised/discussed so I'm hoping the debate continues! 

[soon]

Just one of my favourite Finck solos in NIN:

around 3:26

 

It's undeniable Fincks own solo, one can tell by the style alone.  But for reference, here is the studio version by Trent

solo about 3:10

 

[EvanG]

I had no idea that the guy with the beard and long hair is the same person as the alien looking dude with the freaky haircut... that's how little I know about the nu-GnR lineup.

But to answer the question, yeah he's good enough. He wouldn't have been in the band if he wasn't... Axl wouldn't hire some crappy guitarist.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, EvanG said:

I had no idea that the guy with the beard and long hair is the same person as the alien looking dude with the freaky haircut... that's how little I know about the nu-GnR lineup.

But to answer the question, yeah he's good enough. He wouldn't have been in the band if he wasn't... Axl wouldn't hire some crappy guitarist.

Grab yourself a drink of this and sit back while you ponder that last remark,  

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

But was Ashba a crappy guitarist or was he just a crappy personality?  I've only seen a few admittedly embarrassing videos but it wasn't his guitar playing that had me cringing, just his stage antics. 

[F*ck Fear]

I always felt that Ashba stopped giving a shit when he finally realized there was no way he was going to push Axl to write new music with him.

Finck's stuff on Chinese is great. Live he played too many of the classic solos while Buckethead was on the same stage.

[DieselDaisy]

38 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

But was Ashba a crappy guitarist or was he just a crappy personality?  I've only seen a few admittedly embarrassing videos but it wasn't his guitar playing that had me cringing, just his stage antics. 

He was both. 

[Free Bird]

3 hours ago, tremolo said:

A step back to the origins?

Not really, sorry. That would mean getting rid of the “new gnr” members, getting the classic lineup back together, operating as a band where everyone is equal, and actually making music.

You decide to call this a reunion, but it’s not. Even the band has stated that this is not such thing.

You say that axl broke the band in the 90s, that everything that came after was not gnr but Axl’s solo project. That is not a fact and just your view, but let’s take it as a fact.

So, Axl breaks gnr, goes on with his solo project with hired hands where he is the leader and is above everybody else, takes 15 years to release an album, etc.

Then, 2 old members get back. You call it a reunion, but what we are getting is not a version of gnr we had seen before, it’s just Axl’s solo project with 2 old buddies. Where is the reunion? Where are Izzy, Steven (or Gilby and Matt if you prefer)? If this is a reunion, what are Richard, Melissa and Frank doing there? Under your perspective they were never a part of gnr, they were part of Axl’s solo project.

 

See? You can’t have it both ways. If you want to call this a reunion, it IS a reunion of Axl, Slash and Duff, but it is not a gnr reunion, it’s just 3/5 or 4/6 (if you count Dizzy) of gnr.

Now, if you consider this lineup to be GNR, then gnr never ceased to exist, and it was always gnr from the 80’s all the way to today, including the CD era.

And it’s not spam, we’re just having a debate/conversation from different perspectives, and that’s what makes it fun and interesting. Talking/debating only with people that share the same view is boring, too easy and comfortable and not very different from a circle jerk.

A step back to the origins is unequal to back to the origins. There's a difference. Axl, Slash and Duff in GNR is a step back to the origins to me. The songs are sounding more like Guns than they did the last two decades.

Look, I don't know the details of the reunion as nobody here does. 

But it's confirmed that Axl quited the band to form another band with the same name so he could have full control over it. He said himself he didn't want to deal with lawers and wifes of the bandmembers (Slash and Duff) in case any of them dies due to drug and alcohol abuse.

It's also confirmed that after the band splitted up there was still a partnership existing between Axl, Slash and Duff for business affairs concerning the old band. There are legal contracts out there confirming that and the fact Axl would be the sole owner of the name GNR if the band will ever split up or someone dies.

Izzy and Steven became never part of this partnership due to the early discharge.

That means after Izzy left, the only remaining members of GNR were Duff, Axl and Slash. The rest were just employees.

That means also a reunion of Axl, Slash and Duff is a GNR reunion. At least it's a reunion of the members of this GNR partnership of the 90s.

I don't think that Slash and Duff decided to be Axl's employees. I think this old partnership is part of the reuinion.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Free Bird