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The Adler vs GnR lawsuit (news reports and quotes)

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The basics of this old story are widely known and have been discussed multiple times, but, since there are no news about the band to discuss, I thought it would be useful to post this material for eve

Shady legal shenanigans are the lifeblood of this band.

There is this article: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?action=printpage;topic=18521.0 "Title: Angela Mccoy's response for Stevens statement"    

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I listened to the first half of UYI1 while reading through all of this. Oh, the nostalgia! Interesting stuff to revisit. Thanks for putting it all together. 

It's all very sad, though. I hope they're all in a happier place after this. Steven, especially. He may have fucked up a lot back in the day, but he also went through a lot too that is very sad.

At least he finally got to have his wish (kinda) come true a few years back and played with Axl, Slash, and Dudf again for a little bit. It's probably best that he and the GNR camp stay separate from now on, though. The relationship has certainly become more than toxic. 

Edited by rocknroll41
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Is that excerpt from the partnership agreement legit? I ask because I would have thought legal names would be used in a document like that. Unless they defined the stage names earlier with something like: "The parties to this agreement are W. Axl Rose (Axl), Saul Hudson (Slash), Michael McKagan (Duff)" or something like that.

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20 minutes ago, Gnrcane said:

Is that excerpt from the partnership agreement legit? I ask because I would have thought legal names would be used in a document like that. Unless they defined the stage names earlier with something like: "The parties to this agreement are W. Axl Rose (Axl), Saul Hudson (Slash), Michael McKagan (Duff)" or something like that.

It's from the document that was used as evidence in the 2004 Slash and Duff Vs. Axl lawsuit (it's been circulating on the internet). It was probably a draft of the official contract. Their legal names are stated in the beginning:


Edited by Blackstar
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Thanks, @Blackstar for putting this together....!

I read-scrolled through most of it. What a sad story. Really!! On so many levels. For Steven and for the band. For Erin, too! - Axl was convinced she was drugged and raped? That’s awful, just terrible. By Steven? It just turns my stomach. Ugh. I also read Angela’s report on that night one day, I think it was you, @Blackstar who posted it in the Izzy thread. It is a terribly sad and brutal story and we’ll never know what happened.

Slash’s quotes are confusing me. They are leaving a shallow taste. He was such a bad addict himself and he judged Steven so harshly in the early 90s. 

To be honest it’s one of those stories that are so brutal and bad, for so many people, in so many respects. I don’t even want to start trying to understand it all. We’ll never know what Steven really did to Erin, we will not know why Axl hated him and why Slash gave up on him.

I just hope they’re all in a better place today. Healthy and happier. They’ll never work or tour together, that became pretty clear last year. I love Steven as the drummer in GnR, more than any of the others. The rest is just the typical way it went down for this dysfunctional band.

Edited by Tori72
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It's kind of a miracle that, even after all this, Steven still ended up playing a song on Slash's record, playing with the band (minus Axl) at the RHOF, and then playing with the band AND Axl a couple of years ago. For five shows at that! Sure, only one or two songs per show. But still!

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Something happened to my original post just now. I tried to edit something and when I submitted it most of the text disappeared. I'll restore it later. Sorry.

EDIT: It's all restored now.

Edited by Blackstar
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Brilliant work, @Blackstar.

I think the band showed some legal awareness and maturity when they got it in contract allowing them to kick him out of the band later, the problem is that he could later claim he was out of his mind when he signed it, going for an annulment and hence forcing a settlement. 

It must have been frustrating for the band to read Steven's lawsuit after they thought they had covered all bases, especially since the lawsuit was so venomous (claiming they had pressured him to do heroin, that he wasn't holding anything up, that they were equally bad as him, etc.). Here they had tried to do things professionally -- probably unlike many other bands that go through similar stuff -- by making sure they had legal documentation and also caring for Steven through 20 % royalties even after the firing, yet he hits back with a lawsuit...and it works.

Likewise, Duff saying under oath that Steven was so wasted (or incompetent?) that it was Duff who wrote drum parts to AFD, is completely devastating. How much of that was the truth? I am certain there is some truth in it, at least a kernel, but did he exaggerate in court to win the case? Or has be just been gracious to Steven outside of court?

Reading the books by Slash and Duff written much later, I also think they are kind to Steven. They could still be so angry with him. But even if they write about his flaws, they still treated him nicely, and not necessarily, I think, because they think they treated him unfairly back then and want to make amends, but because they know that he was so drugged out in this period that he couldn't be blamed for all he said and did, and, of course, because Steven develop-wise is an emotional child and can't be expected to behave like grown-ups and because they love him.

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This all just makes it all the more amazing that this happened (and regrettable that Steven mouthed off about it afterward).

I still wish we could get an interview with one of these guys to ask what it was like to have this combination on stage again.


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1 minute ago, Liquor & Whores said:

minus Axl and Izzy, so missing 40% of the classic lineup and missing those who started this band

that's a crucial omission... 

Oh, well! At least they had Gilby! ;)

you make a good point, though. Kinda interesting how, technically, NONE of the "original" gnr members were actually at the HOF. Kinda adds to the whole mythic/ghostly feel that Axl, Izzy, and even gnr as a whole have all come to embody in pop culture.

come to think of it... Did Steven ever play with izzy again at least once since 1990? Was izzy at that AFD 20th anniversary party that Adler's Appetite held back in 2007? Did he play anything with them that night?

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On 2/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, Blackstar said:

Steven just kept on lying. He kept saying he'd given up. I'd already been around to his dealer's house and threatened to kill him if he sold Steven any more drugs. And one night I went round to Steven's house and pressed the redial button on his phone. And guess where it went? And that was that [Duff, Classic Rock, May 2006]

It got so bad, and he seemed so incapable of reining it in, that at one point I found out where his drug dealer lived and took a shotgun to teh guy's home. Fuelled by booze, obviously. I waited for him, intending to threaten the fuck out of this dude to get him to stop supplying Stevie with the things that were going to kill him. It's lucky this guy never showed up - lucky for him, of course, but also for me [Duff, autobiography, 2011]

Interesting to see that the story changed here. Earlier he (Duff) said he threatened the dealer with a gun and then said it again in 2006. In 2011 its a different story.

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I don't believe Duff wrote drum parts on afd.  He may have suggested stuff but I don't think he's that good of a drummer. Duff was always my favorite growing up but I'm starting to think he's full of crap most of the time. He talks about his drumming but what I've heard is very simple.  He also said once him and slash usually play the exact same thing.  Umm, not exactly.  

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Great stuff as always @Blackstar

Some things that immediately stuck out here:

Steven actually retaining his publishing and partnership royalties (excellent find btw). Axl's insistence on giving Steven a contract to sign (a harbinger of things to come for the others) and Doug Goldstein's slimy presence at the infamous signing of the contract removing Steven as a partner.

Initial thoughts:

*Was Adler's lawsuit trying to dissolve the GnR partnership legally and in essence break up the band? The legal verbiage isn't quite clear there...

Going by some of Slash's interviews from that time period it appears like Steven was barely involved with his own lawsuit. His mom and his lawyers were running the show and they were spinning the narrative in ways that he potentially may not have approved of given the potential damage his personal relationship with the band would have suffered [which is exactly what happened]. 

But he also states that the band was ignoring him and not addressing his concerns after his firing and he turned to lawyers as a last resort. Once the lawyers were involved I guess he gave them full authority to do what they needed to win the case.

*Whose idea was it to omit terms for buying out Steven's share of the partnership and why? Did they always intend to have a clause in the contract that a partner should be bought out or was it a decision made later when Izzy wanted to leave? Why did the band decide to oust Steven out of the partnership instead of simply sidelining him for Illusions?

Was that omission at the behest of Doug Goldstein or was it something they overlooked by accident as the band testified at the trial? Not the first time Doug's done something shady. It's not hard to buy Adler's story that Goldstein was less than forthcoming about the contents of the contract. What was Axl's involvement here? Doug might make moves on his own but he's acting usually on marching orders from Axl. What's Niven's role? Did he entrust this process to Doug entirely? Adler makes no mention of Niven in any of this.

[Steven] is back in the band. He was definitely out of the band. He wasn’t necessarily fired, we worked with Adam Maples, we worked with Martin Chambers, and Steven did the Guns N’ Roses thing and got his shit together. And it worked, and he did it, and he plays the songs better than any of ‘em, just bad-assed, and he’s GNR. And so if he doesn’t blow it, we’re going to try the album with him, and the tour and, you know, we’ve worked out a contract with him....(...) It’s only been since Thursday last week, and he’s doing great. We’re all just hoping it continues [Axl, Stick To Your Guns by Mick Wall; Kerrang, 21st and 28th of April 1990] 

- This quote (which is compelling in and of itself for Axl's candid feelings about Steven) seems to suggest that even if Steven was out of the band, the band wasn't firing him - meaning it's plausible that a founding member at that point in time could sit out an album/tour and still be in the partnership legally (which is how it should have been imho).

So why was Steven legally removed from the partnership? What changed from early to mid 1990?  Erin Everly's incident?  Why not give Adler time to regroup and just do the album with a session drummer as they originally were toying with in early 1990? Clearly Izzy had serious misgivings about the whole thing. I mean it looks like they could have kept Steven in the band if they wanted to but they intentionally chose to oust him from the band entirely. Why?

I also wonder if that Axl quote is pre-Erin Everly speedball incident? Maybe it's from late '89? Axl sounds unusually positive about Steven's involvement despite the tension at Farm Aid (Axl was rumored to be ignoring Steven) and the 1990 MTV interview where Axl wants nothing to do with him. 

*Why were they so upset with Steven's lawsuit? Why was it such a big deal for them to just buy out Adler from the partnership? Did they think it was fair to have him forfeit his ownership in the band without any compensation?

They all claim that they owed him nothing (Slash, Axl, Niven). The band claims they had no knowledge that the partnership buyout clause was not in the contract Adler signed and therefore it was simply something that had been overlooked by accident. So the right thing at that point would be to buy out Adler and move on. What was the issue here? Did they not want to buy out Adler and felt that he should forfeit his stake in the band? Were they upset that this wasn't handled internally and that Adler had filed a lawsuit and dragged out their personal business into the public?

-There's also this from Izzy:

"I took it pretty hard when Stevie was out of the band. It was pretty upsetting, cos I was watching Stevie trying to get himself together after pulling myself together, and it was kinda hard seeing somebody trying when they're not really ready for it. I actually spoke to Steve probably a month ago - against the advice of the attorneys - all that fucking bullshit. That part of the business, that part of the band, is such a load of shit - it seems it fucks up so many good things. But I talked to Stevie, I'd heard he wasn't doing so well, and it was a trip talking to the guy cos I hadn't talked to him for what must've been a year.

He was a good natured guy; I hope he can get it together. He was never malicious, he never tried to fuck people around, he was just happy playing his drums. In some ways he's a little naive, I guess. I just tried to offer a little support, y'know? I just talked to him for a little bit. He was a good drummer. He wasn't virtuoso, a Neil Peart from Rush or something, but he's a fucking damn good rock drummer, he's a good guy, and he was funnier than shit on the road. I was always laughing when I was hanging out with Stevie. " [Izzy, Kerrang September '92]

- So if we take Izzy at his word, Steven's lawsuit might have had merit and/or may have been justified? There's a discrepancy here. Why are Axl, Niven and Slash so angry at Steven over this lawsuit while Izzy isn't - even if Izzy is legally liable like them as per the lawsuit? Izzy is straight up defending Steven's character while Steve's former best friend Slash blasts him in the press. As Izzy once said, is Slash just repeating what Axl thinks?

Re: Publishing Royalties - was Axl really being magnanimous in giving a cut of his publishing royalties or is it a more likely case that they weren't really his to give regardless of his feelings of entitlement?

He's the type of person who wants everything handed to him, and he did get it handed to him. He got it handed to him from me (...).  I paid $1.5 million by giving him 15% of my publishing off of Appetite For Destruction. He didn't write one goddamn note, but he calls me a selfish dick! ["I, Axl" Del James, RIP Magazine - 1992]

And Steven says this:

I receive 15% of everything 'Appetite for Destruction' generates. Slash, Duff and Izzy get 20% and Axl gets 25%, because he's the one who wrote the lyrics.

Have you read the [songwriting] credits to the songs? I wrote some of them. 99 percent of the music, not the lyrics, was made by all of us. Axl, Izzy, Duff, Slash and me. Although, in the week they wrote 'Use Your Illusion', I could only play one song. I couldn't write anything.


When we recorded [Appetite for Destruction], Slash came up with this system where whoever wrote got credit. But then when it came time to actually divide them up, suddenly everybody was getting credit but me. I mean, [for example] Izzy wrote the song "Think About You" by himself before we started playing it, yet Slash, Duff, and Axl were also going to be receiving royalties for it, since they supposedly "added to it". I said, "well what about me? Did I add nothing?" I mean Izzy wrote the fucking song, I thought that's how the writing credits were determined, but the other guys were getting credit for something they didn't write, and I wasn't. Same thing for all the other songs, Axl would get credit for songs such as "Brownstone" [written by Slash and Izzy] and "It's So Easy" [written by Duff and West Arkeen], even though he didn't write anything on them, and the other guys [who didn't write also got credit] too. So why not me? So Axl gave me a portion of his [to compensate for not being included], and my name was put beside the rest of theirs [in the writing credits] and that was that. But now they've screwed me out of those royalties and my other ones too.

--Steven Adler, 1991 press release on his lawsuit against Guns N Roses.

But then later on changes his story about the royalties split which aligns closer with what Slash said in his book and Niven says in 2012. 


Now, I thought it was kind of a formality because we had talked about all this before and from day one it was always supposed to be an equal share for everybody. But Axl had changed his tune. Axl wanted a bigger slice of the pie. Axl didn’t think it was fair to split royalties evenly five ways on our songs. He believed he was entitled to more than the rest of us. The other guys were smart. They just stared at the floor. No one said a fucking thing. I don’t know if Axl intimidated them or if they just knew that silence was the best way to deal with his ego. Well, I couldn’t just shut the fuck up about it. The reason I wouldn’t dummy up was I was so outraged. So right off the bat, I was like, “Screw you, I was here from the beginning, I worked on putting those songs together just as much as you.”

I had no trouble standing up to Axl because I was right. So now there’s this deadly silence again, and it’s obvious that it’s become a big fucking deal. Still, no one else is saying anything, so rather than get into a big argument, I proposed what I thought was a fair offer: “Considering Axl did write most of the lyrics, which is a huge fucking part, I’ll give you five percent of my twenty percent.” Axl shot me this look not of thanks, not of appreciation, but of arrogance and triumph. It was like he expected it. So I looked around the room because what I expected was for everyone else to follow suit and ante up too, but the room went dead quiet again. I looked around and everyone kind of started talking about other stuff. The matter was over, settled, done. Axl was happy and I was like, “Fuck!” So it went 25 percent to Axl, 20 percent for each of the other guys, and 15 percent for me. The entire ordeal lasted only a couple of minutes. As long as Axl got more than everybody else he was a happy pig in shit. And at this point we were all trained to feel that as long as Axl wasn’t being pissy, as long as Axl was content, then we should all be happy. He got away with more than the rest of us combined.

[Adler's book]

At one point during the recording process, Axl refused to keep working because he didn’t feel the royalty split was fair. 

According to Slash, Axl said, “There’s no way Steven gets twenty percent, the same as I do.” Adler volunteered to give up 5 percent of his royalties so that Axl could have 25 percent. “I think Steven was permanently scarred by that,” Slash writes.


This whole cockamamie thing about “they didn’t pay me my royalties” is bullshit. He was paid his royalties and in fact he was paid composer royalties that he didn’t deserve. That was a courtesy bestowed on him by the rest of the band in a sense of all for one and one for all. [Alan Niven, quoted in Mick Wall, Last Of The Giants, 2016]

But then Alan says this years later:

"I think that both Axl and Goldstein were, at that time, both controlling and greedy. Axl complained all the time that Steven Adler got a percentage of composing royalties. I had recommended that the band have a share-and-share-alike approach to such income -- as did Van Halen, Great White, and others – because my observation was that the primary factors that destroyed bands were women and arguing over differential splits of income, especially mechanical royalties. Hence, I would recommend equal sharing of royalties -- and not women! - [ironic words since according to Goldstein he allegedly felt he could share Renee w/ Slash which sealed Niven's fate in the band but I digress.]

In any case with GNR, Axl got more than anyone else, and Adler got less. The other three got the same: less than Axl and more than Adler. Ultimately, the fracture between Axl and Adler was exacerbated by the two factors that always rupture bands -- money and a woman." [Metal Sludge 2012]

-- A very telling quote. Was Axl ultimately driven to remove Adler legally from GnR because of Erin Everly AND  because he wanted Adler's share in the partnership? Or by "money" is Niven referring to the paltry studio costs that had been incurred by Adler?


"During the last week in January 1989, Dougie suggested I go into rehab. When I got out, someone asked me why I hadn’t appeared on the American Music Awards. I didn’t know what the hell he was talking about. He proceeded to tell me that GNR performed “Patience” during the American Music Awards at the Shrine Auditorium with someone else on drums. I found out later that it was Don Henley of the Eagles who took my spot. I was completely blindsided by this, so stunned and hurt, I can’t begin to describe the feeling of betrayal. Nobody in our organization ever mentioned anything about the AMAs to me. I should have taken the temp and realized trouble was brewing big-time. I kept things so internalized that I never bothered to find out if Dougie made the rehab suggestion just to get me out of the way and substitute Henley. Frankly, I’ll never know. "

"Then came the deathblow: Slash called me and told me that we were going into the studio to record “Civil War.” “Dude, haven’t you talked to Dougie? I’m sick as hell.” Slash didn’t want to hear it. His voice was strangely detached, zero emotion. “We can’t waste any more money,” he replied. Was I really hearing this shit? From my dearest friend, the guy I was instrumental in getting into GNR, for fuck’s sake? Where was the loyalty, the compassion? “Fuck that, Slash. Listen to me. We both know someone in the band who’s wasted a helluva lot more time and money than it would cost to postpone this one lousy recording session. It would just be for the week or so that it would take for me to get better.” We hadn’t done shit in over a year and now they wanted to record one damn song, and they couldn’t wait for me to feel better. It was such bullshit, and I could only hope that it was someone else pushing their buttons. I didn’t want to believe that Slash really had it in for me."

On signing the contract:

"I counted on Dougie to keep me in the loop. He had me believe that he had my back, that he cared for and loved me. Well, he fooled the hell out of me. I had been lured into having total trust in him and didn’t want to believe some conspiracy was actually going down." 

[Adler's book]  

"This was something that Axl wanted, there was a whole plan to get rid of me." [Adler, Classic Rock]

In no way was it minor. It was incredibly painful and frustrating. I’ve got to confess I’m still capable of a flash of red-hot anger with Steven at that. I have an understanding of why and what happened to him. But it was survivable. We spent a lot of time with Steven trying to get him through it and I resent the fact that he plays the victim, I think that’s bullshit. You know, own up, Steven. Be responsible for your own decisions and actions. You let us down, all of us. And we got to the point where putting him on probation didn’t work. [Alan Niven, quoted in Mick Wall, The Last Of The Giants, 2016]

I think [I was fired because] of monetary issues, which is ridiculous too because we were on our way to making loads of money. Izzy Stradlin (guitar) was the only one who apologized to me. [Steven Adler, Ultimate Guitar 2004]

Axl was fucking convinced that Erin had been overdosed and raped. Well, that’s going to go down well, isn’t it? That was a really clever choice that you made there, Steven, and it really helped everybody. Is it any surprise that we got to the point that we had to seriously consider getting someone else? Did we have any choice? [Alan Niven, quoted in Mick Wall, Last Of The Giants, 2016]

"In 1990, he [Axl] fired Steven Adler (Halfin claims, because Adler had sex with Rose's fiancée Erin Everly, then shot her full of heroin).."


- In hindsight, given everything that happened with GnR in the ensuing years w/ Axl and Goldstein's shenanigans - it's not entirely implausible that the Steven Adler firing may have been the first joint Axl/Doug Goldstein venture. Axl would get a bigger slice of the pie with Steven gone (something he apparently always wanted as per Niven) and Goldstein would ingratiate himself with Axl for giving the idea of how to engineer Adler's complete removal legally. A plan to demote Steven to an employee is not without precedent - Axl and Goldstein would do the same to Duff and Slash years later. It's ironic that Steven's final act in the band is to meet Doug Goldstein and "sign away his life". 

The writing was on the wall, and things quickly came to a head. Axl's patience as far as Steve went was long gone, so we had the inevitable get-together to discuss the situation; with Alan [Niven]'s support, Axl insisted that we give Steven a written ultimatum. It was a contract that Steve was forced to sign, that at best we hoped would scare him sober and at worst would orchestrate his departure from the band. The paperwork was clear; it said that if Steven showed up high to recording sessions, he'd be fined. If he did it three times, he'd be fired, or something along those lines. Steven signed it, he agreed to all of the terms, and like anyone caught in the throes of smack, he ignored all the promises he made and continued the way he had been [Slash, autobiography, 2007]

"They told me I had a drug problem, well, who the fuck were they to tell me that? A couple alcoholics and heroin users? Did they take some time in between fucking strippers to decide they were going to throw me out of the band? Doug Goldstein took me to have an opiate blocker, which made me very sick. I told them [slash & Duff] that I felt sick and couldn't record. Slash told me we had to, because we couldn't waste the money. I said "Money? What about the money we wasted last year [referring to the 1989 Chicago rehearsal/recording sessions, in which only Slash, Duff, and Steven attended] when Izzy was cleaning himself up, and Axl was nowhere to be found? Why was it okay for those guys to waste the money, but not me [in order to] get well?" So anyway, they bring me into the studio and I feel like shit. It took me forever to get the song [Civil War] right, and they got frustrated with me.

So next thing I know, Doug has a stack of papers in front of me that I could never fucking read because they were about five inches thick! He's telling me 'sign here, sign there' and telling me I was signing an agreement saying I was on "probation", meaning I was going to detox in time to record, or else. But it turns out, those papers weren't really giving me that chance. So I don't hear a fucking thing from anyone for awhile, then I got these notices saying 'you're out of the band'. Through my lawyers, I discovered that the "probation" papers that Doug had me sign were actually the rights to my partnership and all my royalties, which I was unknowingly signing away! They completely screwed me out of everything, these guys, [who were] my friends, my family. It hurt more than anything. My royalties were from playing, writing, and [use of] my image such as t shirts and shit. Two fucking albums that I played on are still selling and they're collecting money from them, and I'm not. Guns N Roses T shirts with my face on them are still selling, and they're collecting money from them, and I'm not. That's what they did to me, people I thought were my friends took it all away and said goodbye as if I never existed. Fuck that! That's why I sue them, and I'm confident the jury will see it my way."

--Steven Adler, 1991 press release on his lawsuit against Guns N Roses.

- The Adler firing has all the hallmarks of a Doug Goldstein power move. Did they deliberately give him that contract knowing he would blow it? That there was no way for him to clean up and recover within a 30 day probationary period? Note the Slash quote mentioning Axl's insistence on Steven signing that 30 day probation contract. The terms of that contract seem particularly harsh regardless of the circumstances - 30 days to clean up or you forfeit being a partner? Really? Convincing Slash that removing Steven out of the partnership was in his best interest would have been easy at that point and Slash would have been able to get Duff and Izzy onboard given Steven's ongoing issues. 

And then there's Adler's press release where he claims he wasn't even given a probation period and simply tricked into signing over his partnership rights and demoting himself to an employee whereupon he was promptly fired by the band the very next day.

Even after they fired Steven and recorded tracks in 1990, it took an entire year for Axl to put down vocals/overdubs and by his own words, the album was taken out of his hands against his wishes and released in late '91. He wanted to work on it further (!) - no doubt to remove Izzy entirely. Surely this isn't someone who was concerned with getting an album out on time or studio costs racking up. Then you have this: "I tried talking to him, during the Illusion albums: 'If we had a schedule here, come in at a certain time ... ' And he completely blew up at me: 'There is no f---ing schedule,'" Stradlin told Rolling Stone. 

Something just doesn't add up in this story...

Edited by RONIN
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On 2/19/2018 at 11:08 PM, Hollywood Gunner said:

i wonder if we'll ever find out the exact details why hes not part of NITL. It hurts to see frank play his parts while hes sitting at home

I think it's pretty obvious why he isn't part of the tour 

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On 2/19/2018 at 8:08 PM, Hollywood Gunner said:

i wonder if we'll ever find out the exact details why hes not part of NITL. It hurts to see frank play his parts while hes sitting at home

There's a rumor that it may have been a Team Brazil decision. Not the first time they have made decisions on behalf of Axl Rose. 

"Chip Z'Nuff talks about GNR and Steven Adler in the latest issue of a Spanish magazine called Popular 1. He says Steven was preparing to play the whole tour but was kicked out by management and lawyers after he hurt his back at rehearsals."



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I cant help but think axl has never been able to move on from all of this and put it behind him. Off topic im starting to think team brazil are an extended version of doug goldstein. From all of this and hats off to izzy for the way he tried to reach out to steven, he never got sucked into the managers and other hangers on and always never saw the rest of the band members bigger than themselves. To him the band were always the same 5 guys from gardner street. Im sure the reason why things got so out  of hand was the lawyers and goldste in whispering different thing's in different band members ears because i think the label were looking to invest alot of money into the illusion recordings.

Edited by Sydney Fan
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