New Sean Beavan Interview Talking Chinese Democracy, Axl, GNR, NIN & More!

[RONIN]

Axl was obviously inspired by NIN/Manson w/ OMG but I agree with whoever mentioned the CD songs sounding more Nu-Metal-ish. Particularly bands like Korn - Axl was a big fan of those guys - GnR even follows them on twitter. Stuff like Riad, Shacklers, CD and Better have a nu metal substratum. They may have been more conventionally "Korn" before evolving over the years as Axl added more layers and nu metal fell out of vogue. Chinese Democracy was largely conceived during the late 90's and nu-metal/industrial dominated the rock scene back then. The album simply reflects the time period it came from. I'm not entirely sure why this is a controversial opinion here with some aside from the fact that nu-metal is considered hot garbage by most people and it sucks that Axl was influenced by this genre. It is what it is though. Axl's 90's musical obsessions are all over Chinese Democracy.

I think Beavan definitively puts to rest this bizarre notion that Chinese wasn't a solo project.  On the Brian May sessions:

"He wanted the full artistic emphasis of the album to his vision and having another iconic guy there made him feel like he might have to argue with somebody about where he wanted to go. He didn't want that tension - he didn't want that division - he just wanted it to be his voice, his idea." - Sean Beavan

What part of that quote sounds like a collaborative effort? That's the producer of Chi Dem essentially saying that Axl was running the show and did not want any creative input that wasn't on his terms. Axl didn't want Brian May to have a say in how his work was used on the songs. His fear was that Brian would expect some measure of creative control. When you ask Brian May to play on your record, you don't cut/paste his stuff as you see fit, you leave it intact. That's just respect from one professional to another. That's why Slash flipped out when Tobias was added in without his permission on Sympathy for the Devil. May and Slash are artists. They are used to artistic control over their work. Had Axl opted to work further with May, he would have been obligated to give consideration for Brian's suggestions on CITR which he wasn't interested in. Axl himself spells out how he raped Brian's work in studio:

"Brian's solo itself is a personal fave of mine and I really couldn't understand as he's such a rock legend why it wasn't openly appreciated more at the time. In actuality all that feel and emotion referred to now had a lot to do with Sean and I and the parts I chose out of Brian's different runs, versions, practice runs etc to make sure we had those elements in one version. It's entirely constructed from edits based around one specific note Brian hit in a throw away take. And though Brian seems to have warmed a bit to it at least publicly he was unfortunately none to pleased at the time with our handiwork.

I remember looking at Brian standing to my left and him staring at the big studio speakers a bit aghast saying "But that's not what I played." Sean Beavan and I were not in any way trying to mess with Brian we just did what we do and then try and do our best to stand up for our decisions." - W. Axl Rose

Axl took on more of a producer role. He was an auteur  with a vision that he executed with the help of world class (mostly) session players. Just because he was a bit more collaborative than say...Trent Reznor, doesn't somehow change the reality of the situation here. The collaborative aspect that people bring up with Dizzy/Robin/Tommy quotes sounds to me like Axl not having a really defined vision and hence the innumerable jam sessions w/ Nu Guns and Duff/Slash, which were meant as a way of inspiring him and giving some clarity on how to move forward. Axl did not know what he was doing during that time (well documented on Chinese Whispers) - he just knew what he didn't want to hear. And that's why Chinese Democracy sounds like a clusterfuck. So "collaboration" really means letting the band members have the freedom to play in a loosely defined capacity with Axl having final cut. Robin/Tommy are not crafting the songs - they're just adding texture to a canvas that belongs to someone else. Like programmers writing code for a project which continues evolving long after their work is finished. All these guys would jam for hours and then Tobias parsed through everything and assembled that stuff into a collection of tapes which were delivered to Axl. Whatever Axl liked, he took to the laboratory and reassembled it into a song. 

Is there any creative driving force on that album other than Axl's? Including some buckethead solos does not mean that Chinese Democracy was an Axl/Bucket collaboration. It means Axl hired Bucket to play some stuff to his specifications and Bucket did as he was told. That's a session player.  Simple as that. These guys aren't going "I don't like that Axl, add this into it, use these lyrics, don't change that riff". Axl is in complete ownership of everyone's work and he can do whatever he wants to it. There's a '96 interview (or somewhere in his book) where Slash mentions how he was a bit spooked by the fact that he may not even have control over how his riffs would be used in the current GnR project (if he signed on as a hired hand w/ Nu Guns). That he was essentially uncomfortable with ceding full artistic control of his work to Axl and demoting himself to a session player in Guns. 

Writing together as a band and crafting songs as a cohesive unit is different from asking people in your band to jam and then taking bits and pieces you like and manipulating it further in the studio. The former suggests a more unified and synergistic approach to making music while the latter is really more of an auteur model - molding people's contributions into your vision (see Tommy's quote below). He's telling them what to play, how to play, what he wants to hear, and then further dicing and splicing it up in studio. It's a completely different process from AFD which is a true band effort where they played live together and recorded the album in 1 or 2 takes. Or even Illusions where Izzy is handing Axl a finished song with lyrics or Slash giving him a completed song musically like Coma. Illusions was a hybrid of the AFD and Chinese Democracy process but Slash and Izzy were significant creative forces on that album along with Axl. It was a blend of their visions with Axl's predominating. Chinese Democracy is wholly Axl's from start to finish.

Reading Tommy and Dizzy's quotes about Axl's process sounds to me like : "I'm "including" all of you guys in the song to prove that this is a band and not a solo effort. Of course, I'll work on it further in studio and reserve the right to cut 90% of your contributions out and/or make it sound completely different than what you intended, but you guys could be rewarded with songwriting credits if you play ball and give me some good stuff. In no way does that sound like real collaboration. Nor does that process really lend support to any dodgy songwriting credit system Axl devised for CD regardless of how generous he was in giving out credit to his hired hands. 

Giving songwriting credit to Izzy for 14 years is totally different from giving Paul Tobias or Tommy Stinson writing credit on Chinese Democracy. Does anyone really believe that Paul Tobias wrote 3/4 of Chinese Democracy? Or that Robin Finck/Buckethead were songwriters that had real artistic input anywhere close to Slash and Izzy? Giving writing credit to your bandmates for their loyalty or for a piece of an idea that you used is pretty different from getting completed work musically including lyrics from your bandmates or crafting it together as a band in studio a la AFD. But hey, that's just my 2 cents. 

These quotes just align further with what Sean said about Axl's creative control over CD:

Duff: But how it worked before was the band would write all the music and rehearse it all, and kind of give it to Axl and he'd write lyrics to it. Or Izzy or I would already have lyrics, and he would just come in at the end. Later he wanted to be the ringleader and it didn't go anywhere. And I guess it still hasn't. Whatever, I have no resentment [Thrasher Magazine, January 2005].

He's so intense about EVERY single note that's on there, and the solos that I played, um, he was totally into it VERY much in the way that Freddie used to be. You know, Freddie used to go through my solos and, and say "You know there's this particular note here and I think if you did this and this and this", you know and I thought I would just go in there... I'd forgotten, you know, what Axl was like, and I thought I would just go in there and he'd like it. He did like it, but he wanted to get into EVERY single take of every single note, and sort of string, you know ... I would go in there and he, from, from one day to another, Axl would have been in there like from 5 o'clock in the morning to 7 o'clock in the morning, comping little bits of my solos and saying "Can you get Brian to try this?" You know, he's UTTERLY meticulous." (Brian May, 2000)

Tommy: (...) Axl as a producer is trying to get the best out of eight guys and get them all in a song, like trying to pull everyone in. You know, mush it together like a fucking piece of clay or something. Trying to form a piece of art work out of it. It takes time. (...) He has a way of working with people and pulling them in. Get you to bring something to the plate that's gonna be special and cool for that song. And it just takes a long time. Because you got eight guys you know. So that process takes a while [This tastes like pretzels - the Tommy Stinson interview, Here Today... Gone To Hell!, 2004].

It's Axl's band, and he runs it the way he wants. And whatever he wants to do is gonna happen. So we can work on songs all year long and come up with 20 songs, but when it comes down to it, if Axl writes 10 songs, he'll go, 'I want my 10 songs on the record'. And that's what's gonna happen [War Of The Roses! (Gilby Clarke interview), Kerrang!, May 1994]. 

Matt: GN’R turned into a Gestapo – It was run by one guy who had his vision of what Guns was supposed to be, at that point. In this band, we like hanging out together and playing music with each other, it’s like we can’t wait to come up with a new riff. With Guns, we’d come up with a new riff and Axl would be like, “That sucks!" [breaking The Big Machine, Metal Edge January 2005].

Edited February 24, 2018 by RONIN

[Its Tino]

Well that escalated quickly. 

[SlashisGOD]

Exactly as Ronin said. A fucking solo album with session guys whose stuff was compiled bit by bit. 

[Order of Nine]

1 hour ago, SlashisGOD said:

Exactly as Ronin said. A fucking solo album with session guys whose stuff was compiled bit by bit. 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-n-roses-bassist-talks-chinese-democracy/

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, Order of Nine said:

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-n-roses-bassist-talks-chinese-democracy/

"I came in around '98 when the band was still writing the record. It was Paul Tobias and Robin Finck on guitar, Dizzy Reed and Chris Pitman on keys, Josh on drums and me. Everybody was just slowly starting to bring in ideas. We were set up at Rumbo Recorders, a big studio out in the middle of nowhere. A funny thing — Captain & Tennille own it. The whole thing looks like a boat. Anyway, we all just started hammering ideas out. Essentially it was eight guys collaborating. To be thrown into that kind of environment — eight guys from very different walks of life — was very crazy, I'd never worked in that way, but it was cool. There were guys who'd never ever made a record putting out their ideas. At first, those of us who'd actually made records thought their ideas sucked, but there were also some good ones." [Paul Tobias]

"We each had to give reasons for liking or disliking something — you couldn't just be bull-headed. We had to function as a democracy or we'd end up hating each other. Collaborating was good for that. I think every one of us learned a lot from it."

"I had to redo them[Josh Freese tracks]. I probably ended up completely re-recording each part five or six times over the years. It was tough. What really happened was the record company stood back and left Axl to his own devices. Axl had all these ideas, and he needed somebody to help interpret what he wanted. He had to basically produce himself, and that's not what he went into this wanting to do. There are a lot of reasons the album took so long to make, but I think the record company really dropped the ball on this one."

- Tommy Stinson

Not sure what that proves, if anything. None of what Tommy said really disproves what the rest of us have been saying on this thread. The guys came in, jammed their ideas, gave some feedback and fucked off while Axl did whatever he wanted to their work in the studio. He's basically confirming what has been said before: the hired guns were mostly adding to existing Axl songs and/or jamming new ideas that Axl was going to carve into pieces in the studio [Robin's untitled song #41]. Axl was acting as a producer that molded and incorporated their work into his ideas or he was taking pieces of their ideas that inspired him and stitching it all up into a new song. Unless you believe that Paul Tobias is an unsung hero of Chinese Democracy that allegedly wrote more than 3/4 of the songs according to Axl's crediting system. Then yes, perhaps CD was a collaborative effort. Tommy appears to be a big fan of Tobias. 

"Help interpret what he wanted" = session players trying to play the sound Axl was hearing in his head. How is that not a solo effort? Compare that to AFD era Guns assembling Paradise City or Slash and Axl teaming up on Coma. Even "Axl" songs like Estranged and November Rain are heavily influenced by Slash. Nothing on Chinese has that kind of definitive artistic imprint from a band member from start to finish aside from maybe Shacklers (Bucket) and Better (Robin) and even that feels like a bit of a stretch imho. 

Sean Beavan mentioned Axl having mixed feelings about Brian May playing on stuff because he didn't want to in essence compromise and allow Brian's input to influence his songs - you know...collaborate. That's straight from the original producer of CD. If he felt that way about a legend like Brian from his favorite band Queen, imagine how he felt about a bunch of guys way below Brian May's stature? You think he let the nu guns guys actually influence and contribute to his songs as equals instead of telling them what to play and picking through their work to find what he liked? Let's not forget the amount of people that have been hired and fired on Chinese - three different lead guitarists, three different drummers, two different rhythm guitarists - you call that a band dude? 

Edited February 24, 2018 by RONIN

[Order of Nine]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

"I came in around '98 when the band was still writing the record. It was Paul Tobias and Robin Finck on guitar, Dizzy Reed and Chris Pitman on keys, Josh on drums and me. Everybody was just slowly starting to bring in ideas. We were set up at Rumbo Recorders, a big studio out in the middle of nowhere. A funny thing — Captain & Tennille own it. The whole thing looks like a boat. Anyway, we all just started hammering ideas out. Essentially it was eight guys collaborating. To be thrown into that kind of environment — eight guys from very different walks of life — was very crazy, I'd never worked in that way, but it was cool. There were guys who'd never ever made a record putting out their ideas. At first, those of us who'd actually made records thought their ideas sucked, but there were also some good ones." [Paul Tobias]

"We each had to give reasons for liking or disliking something — you couldn't just be bull-headed. We had to function as a democracy or we'd end up hating each other. Collaborating was good for that. I think every one of us learned a lot from it."

"I had to redo them[Josh Freese tracks]. I probably ended up completely re-recording each part five or six times over the years. It was tough. What really happened was the record company stood back and left Axl to his own devices. Axl had all these ideas, and he needed somebody to help interpret what he wanted. He had to basically produce himself, and that's not what he went into this wanting to do. There are a lot of reasons the album took so long to make, but I think the record company really dropped the ball on this one."

- Tommy Stinson

Not sure what that proves, if anything. None of what Tommy said really disproves what the rest of us have been saying on this thread. The guys came in, jammed their ideas, gave some feedback and fucked off while Axl did whatever he wanted to their work in the studio. He's basically confirming what has been said before: the hired guns were mostly adding to existing Axl songs and/or jamming new ideas that Axl was going to carve into pieces in the studio [Robin's untitled song #41]. Axl was acting as a producer that molded and incorporated their work into his ideas or he was taking pieces of their ideas that inspired him and stitching it all up into a new song. Unless you believe that Paul Tobias is an unsung hero of Chinese Democracy that allegedly wrote more than 3/4 of the songs according to Axl's crediting system. Then yes, perhaps CD was a collaborative effort. Tommy appears to be a big fan of Tobias. 

"Help interpret what he wanted" = session players trying to play the sound Axl was hearing in his head. How is that not a solo effort? Compare that to AFD era Guns assembling Paradise City or Slash and Axl teaming up on Coma. Even "Axl" songs like Estranged and November Rain are heavily influenced by Slash. Nothing on Chinese has that kind of definitive artistic imprint from a band member from start to finish aside from maybe Shacklers (Bucket) and Better (Robin) and even that feels like a bit of a stretch imho. 

Sean Beavan mentioned Axl having mixed feelings about Brian May playing on stuff because he didn't want to in essence compromise and allow Brian's input to influence his songs - you know...collaborate. That's straight from the original producer of CD. If he felt that way about a legend like Brian from his favorite band Queen, imagine how he felt about a bunch of guys way below Brian May's stature? You think he let the nu guns guys actually influence and contribute to his songs as equals instead of telling them what to play and picking through their work to find what he liked? Let's not forget the amount of people that have been hired and fired on Chinese - three different lead guitarists, three different drummers, two different rhythm guitarists - you call that a band dude? 

Can you read what Tommy said?

Was that just a Psy op??? 

Come on.

Why all the writing credits/ copyrights?????

[Order of Nine]

Btw.

Korn is not metal..

That's just laughable.

[Derick]

People around here are still stuck on a romanticized idea of what a band is, and mistakenly think that anything that runs away from that idea, or that ideal, can not be considered a band. 

[Order of Nine]

And btw. Guns is STILL run by Axl. Get over it.

Just because Duff and Slash are back has not changed the fact that he has the last word on everything Guns related. 

People just want to demonize the band because Slash and Duff were not in it at the time.

 

[RONIN]

On 2/20/2018 at 1:56 PM, soon said:

I bet Beaven was mistaken when he says that both Slash and Duff overlapped with Vrenna.  But interesting as Slash was back and forth again (pun intended) a few times in the preceding years.  Maybe this exposes another 'feel out period' ? 

Did I miss this? I don't recall hearing this in the interview but if he said that...wow, interesting indeed. It's conceivable that Duff could have overlapped with Vrenna since Matt was fired in early '97 and Duff stayed on till August. 

Beavan's interview also confirms that Axl was gunning for a trilogy of albums with each one being stylistically different. 

They pretty much covered most of the good stuff with Beavan - I guess the only missing piece of the puzzle was asking him about how far along they were with the album prior to his exit. The rumor is that Beavan's CD was already mastered and that it was Geffen that killed the release of that album even though Axl was ready to roll. From what Beavan seems to be saying, the album was still bogged down in the vocals stage and that they weren't even at a point where it was nearing completion, let alone ready for release which sounds more plausible. Something big must have happened to the album's status around that time given Beavan, Freese, Finck, and Billy Howerdel all quitting in quick succession around 2000. Nearly the whole original team quit and they replaced them with a new producer, lead guitarist, and drummer. Feels almost like there was an Axl or Geffen mandate to change the direction of the album by bringing in a new team. 

Fantastic interview though. 

[zombux]

9 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Did I miss this? I don't recall hearing this in the interview but if he said that...wow, interesting indeed. It's conceivable that Duff could have overlapped with Vrenna since Matt was fired in early '97 and Duff stayed on till August.

not "conceivable", but just true - check this: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=54760#p54760

[RONIN]

28 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

Why all the writing credits/ copyrights?????

Who knows. Maybe Yoda told Axl that Dizzy's vibes smelled extra good so he should get songwriting credits? Maybe he was generous with crediting to keep his long suffering employees happy and reward them for their loyalty? Chinese Democracy doesn't get much radio play though so I doubt anyone's bank account is blowing up with royalty payments. 

I think he became OCD about crediting to give the impression that Nu Guns was an actual band and out of a sense of loyalty to those who stuck with him through the journey. Giving them some ownership in the project and not officially designating them as session players, even if that's what they were essentially.  Duff has mentioned in the past how he wasn't properly credited on certain songs in Illusions so it's not something that Axl was always meticulous about from day one. 

The Tobias crediting is very generous and I think any objective person would find it a bit dubious - unless Paul is one of the great songwriters of the 90's that just did one album with his friend Axl and disappeared into the ether. Nobody mentions Paul's songwriting, not Beavan, Tommy, Finck - no one....except Dizzy in some obscure interviews. For a guy with that much influence on the creation of this album, you'd think he'd be mentioned more by the other band members. 

[ludurigan]

6 hours ago, RONIN said:

Axl was obviously inspired by NIN/Manson w/ OMG but I agree with whoever mentioned the CD songs sounding more Nu-Metal-ish. Particularly bands like Korn - Axl was a big fan of those guys - GnR even follows them on twitter. Stuff like Riad, Shacklers, CD and Better have a nu metal substratum. They may have been more conventionally "Korn" before evolving over the years as Axl added more layers and nu metal fell out of vogue. Chinese Democracy was largely conceived during the late 90's and nu-metal/industrial dominated the rock scene back then. The album simply reflects the time period it came from. I'm not entirely sure why this is a controversial opinion here with some aside from the fact that nu-metal is considered hot garbage by most people and it sucks that Axl was influenced by this genre. It is what it is though. Axl's 90's musical obsessions are all over Chinese Democracy.

I think Beavan definitively puts to rest this bizarre notion that Chinese wasn't a solo project.  On the Brian May sessions:

"He wanted the full artistic emphasis of the album to his vision and having another iconic guy there made him feel like he might have to argue with somebody about where he wanted to go. He didn't want that tension - he didn't want that division - he just wanted it to be his voice, his idea." - Sean Beavan

What part of that quote sounds like a collaborative effort? That's the producer of Chi Dem essentially saying that Axl was running the show and did not want any creative input that wasn't on his terms. Axl didn't want Brian May to have a say in how his work was used on the songs. His fear was that Brian would expect some measure of creative control. When you ask Brian May to play on your record, you don't cut/paste his stuff as you see fit, you leave it intact. That's just respect from one professional to another. That's why Slash flipped out when Tobias was added in without his permission on Sympathy for the Devil. May and Slash are artists. They are used to artistic control over their work. Had Axl opted to work further with May, he would have been obligated to give consideration for Brian's suggestions on CITR which he wasn't interested in. Axl himself spells out how he raped Brian's work in studio:

"Brian's solo itself is a personal fave of mine and I really couldn't understand as he's such a rock legend why it wasn't openly appreciated more at the time. In actuality all that feel and emotion referred to now had a lot to do with Sean and I and the parts I chose out of Brian's different runs, versions, practice runs etc to make sure we had those elements in one version. It's entirely constructed from edits based around one specific note Brian hit in a throw away take. And though Brian seems to have warmed a bit to it at least publicly he was unfortunately none to pleased at the time with our handiwork.

I remember looking at Brian standing to my left and him staring at the big studio speakers a bit aghast saying "But that's not what I played." Sean Beavan and I were not in any way trying to mess with Brian we just did what we do and then try and do our best to stand up for our decisions." - W. Axl Rose

Axl took on more of a producer role. He was an auteur  with a vision that he executed with the help of world class (mostly) session players. Just because he was a bit more collaborative than say...Trent Reznor, doesn't somehow change the reality of the situation here. The collaborative aspect that people bring up with Dizzy/Robin/Tommy quotes sounds to me like Axl not having a really defined vision and hence the innumerable jam sessions w/ Nu Guns and Duff/Slash, which were meant as a way of inspiring him and giving some clarity on how to move forward. Axl did not know what he was doing during that time (well documented on Chinese Whispers) - he just knew what he didn't want to hear. And that's why Chinese Democracy sounds like a clusterfuck. So "collaboration" really means letting the band members have the freedom to play in a loosely defined capacity with Axl having final cut. Robin/Tommy are not crafting the songs - they're just adding texture to a canvas that belongs to someone else. Like programmers writing code for a project which continues evolving long after their work is finished. All these guys would jam for hours and then Tobias parsed through everything and assembled that stuff into a collection of tapes which were delivered to Axl. Whatever Axl liked, he took to the laboratory and reassembled it into a song. 

Is there any creative driving force on that album other than Axl's? Including some buckethead solos does not mean that Chinese Democracy was an Axl/Bucket collaboration. It means Axl hired Bucket to play some stuff to his specifications and Bucket did as he was told. That's a session player.  Simple as that. These guys aren't going "I don't like that Axl, add this into it, use these lyrics, don't change that riff". Axl is in complete ownership of everyone's work and he can do whatever he wants to it. There's a '96 interview (or somewhere in his book) where Slash mentions how he was a bit spooked by the fact that he may not even have control over how his riffs would be used in the current GnR project (if he signed on as a hired hand w/ Nu Guns). That he was essentially uncomfortable with ceding full artistic control of his work to Axl and demoting himself to a session player in Guns. 

Writing together as a band and crafting songs as a cohesive unit is different from asking people in your band to jam and then taking bits and pieces you like and manipulating it further in the studio. The former suggests a more unified and synergistic approach to making music while the latter is really more of an auteur model - molding people's contributions into your vision (see Tommy's quote below). He's telling them what to play, how to play, what he wants to hear, and then further dicing and splicing it up in studio. It's a completely different process from AFD which is a true band effort where they played live together and recorded the album in 1 or 2 takes. Or even Illusions where Izzy is handing Axl a finished song with lyrics or Slash giving him a completed song musically like Coma. Illusions was a hybrid of the AFD and Chinese Democracy process but Slash and Izzy were significant creative forces on that album along with Axl. It was a blend of their visions with Axl's predominating. Chinese Democracy is wholly Axl's from start to finish.

Reading Tommy and Dizzy's quotes about Axl's process sounds to me like : "I'm "including" all of you guys in the song to prove that this is a band and not a solo effort. Of course, I'll work on it further in studio and reserve the right to cut 90% of your contributions out and/or make it sound completely different than what you intended, but you guys could be rewarded with songwriting credits if you play ball and give me some good stuff. In no way does that sound like real collaboration. Nor does that process really lend support to any dodgy songwriting credit system Axl devised for CD regardless of how generous he was in giving out credit to his hired hands. 

Giving songwriting credit to Izzy for 14 years is totally different from giving Paul Tobias or Tommy Stinson writing credit on Chinese Democracy. Does anyone really believe that Paul Tobias wrote 3/4 of Chinese Democracy? Or that Robin Finck/Buckethead were songwriters that had real artistic input anywhere close to Slash and Izzy? Giving writing credit to your bandmates for their loyalty or for a piece of an idea that you used is pretty different from getting completed work musically including lyrics from your bandmates or crafting it together as a band in studio a la AFD. But hey, that's just my 2 cents. 

These quotes just align further with what Sean said about Axl's creative control over CD:

Duff: But how it worked before was the band would write all the music and rehearse it all, and kind of give it to Axl and he'd write lyrics to it. Or Izzy or I would already have lyrics, and he would just come in at the end. Later he wanted to be the ringleader and it didn't go anywhere. And I guess it still hasn't. Whatever, I have no resentment [Thrasher Magazine, January 2005].

He's so intense about EVERY single note that's on there, and the solos that I played, um, he was totally into it VERY much in the way that Freddie used to be. You know, Freddie used to go through my solos and, and say "You know there's this particular note here and I think if you did this and this and this", you know and I thought I would just go in there... I'd forgotten, you know, what Axl was like, and I thought I would just go in there and he'd like it. He did like it, but he wanted to get into EVERY single take of every single note, and sort of string, you know ... I would go in there and he, from, from one day to another, Axl would have been in there like from 5 o'clock in the morning to 7 o'clock in the morning, comping little bits of my solos and saying "Can you get Brian to try this?" You know, he's UTTERLY meticulous." (Brian May, 2000)

Tommy: (...) Axl as a producer is trying to get the best out of eight guys and get them all in a song, like trying to pull everyone in. You know, mush it together like a fucking piece of clay or something. Trying to form a piece of art work out of it. It takes time. (...) He has a way of working with people and pulling them in. Get you to bring something to the plate that's gonna be special and cool for that song. And it just takes a long time. Because you got eight guys you know. So that process takes a while [This tastes like pretzels - the Tommy Stinson interview, Here Today... Gone To Hell!, 2004].

It's Axl's band, and he runs it the way he wants. And whatever he wants to do is gonna happen. So we can work on songs all year long and come up with 20 songs, but when it comes down to it, if Axl writes 10 songs, he'll go, 'I want my 10 songs on the record'. And that's what's gonna happen [War Of The Roses! (Gilby Clarke interview), Kerrang!, May 1994]. 

Matt: GN’R turned into a Gestapo – It was run by one guy who had his vision of what Guns was supposed to be, at that point. In this band, we like hanging out together and playing music with each other, it’s like we can’t wait to come up with a new riff. With Guns, we’d come up with a new riff and Axl would be like, “That sucks!" [breaking The Big Machine, Metal Edge January 2005].

 

fantastic argument, fantastic post, hard to argue with this!

[ludurigan]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Did I miss this? I don't recall hearing this in the interview but if he said that...wow, interesting indeed. It's conceivable that Duff could have overlapped with Vrenna since Matt was fired in early '97 and Duff stayed on till August. 

Beavan's interview also confirms that Axl was gunning for a trilogy of albums with each one being stylistically different. 

They pretty much covered most of the good stuff with Beavan - I guess the only missing piece of the puzzle was asking him about how far along they were with the album prior to his exit. The rumor is that Beavan's CD was already mastered and that it was Geffen that killed the release of that album even though Axl was ready to roll. From what Beavan seems to be saying, the album was still bogged down in the vocals stage and that they weren't even at a point where it was nearing completion, let alone ready for release which sounds more plausible. Something big must have happened to the album's status around that time given Beavan, Freese, Finck, and Billy Howerdel all quitting in quick succession around 2000. Nearly the whole original team quit and they replaced them with a new producer, lead guitarist, and drummer. Feels almost like there was an Axl or Geffen mandate to change the direction of the album by bringing in a new team. 

Fantastic interview though. 

by listenin to beavan it seemed like nothing happened and thats why they left one by one

like they started really well, wrote 35 songs, then when came time to axl record the vocals or finish the album with the band then apparently nothing happened, so all the momentum was lost and people started to lose interest on it and slowly but surely some of them decided to leave

it seems to me that beavan took a bit of care with his words to not blame it all on axl

he apparently avoids saying something like "axl sat on those fucking songs and went nowhere for a year and a half and thats why we all left" but thats what seems to be what he is saying

[RONIN]

4 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

by listenin to beavan it seemed like nothing happened and thats why they left one by one

like they started really well, wrote 35 songs, then when came time to axl record the vocals or finish the album with the band then apparently nothing happened, so all the momentum was lost and people started to lose interest on it and slowly but surely some of them decided to leave

it seems to me that beavan took a bit of care with his words to not blame it all on axl

he apparently avoids saying something like "axl sat on those fucking songs and went nowhere for a year and a half and thats why we all left" but thats what seems to be what he is saying

Agreed. So it's basically a repeat of '94-97 where he didn't do shit with the Duff/Slash/Izzy material - some 400 hours worth of stuff that had been jammed out as per Matt. And 80 songs according to the Slash interview below.

"Even if we don't sell any copy of the next album, I will be very proud of what we did. But I don't worry about it, I know that what we are doing right now is great. [...] We are working on rock songs that last only 4 minutes (laughs). We already did 7 songs and we will write 7 others. [...] It will be a single album with 10 or 12 songs." (Matt, 09/23/96)

"The record will be all up-tempo rock songs ("No ballads," McKagan said firmly) and it will be just 12 songs, with a release planned for next spring." (Duff, Addicted to Noise, 08/30/96)

"So far, Slash and McKagan say the band has worked up about 16 songs, and the bassist reports that: 'the material is really strong...This record is going to fuckin' rock. There's nothing like the chemistry of Guns when we're in the same room.'" (Total Guitar, 01/97)

 

[tbaugerud]

Axl is the main reason why GnR conquered the world.

He is also the main reason behind the downfall. 

Very simple. 

[6lake sa66ath]

Lock this shit up already

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

Btw.

Korn is not metal..

That's just laughable.

Yes they were. They were part of the 1990s nu-metal genre. 

[bucketfoot]

6 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

Btw.

Korn is not metal..

That's just laughable.

Yes they are. You're just talking utter shit now.

[killuridols]

13 hours ago, tremolo said:

I did, and it doesn’t make sense to me.

I mean no disrespect, I just think that when you are more familiar with the material (in this case NIN and gnr music), you can really see and hear how different they are in so many ways that they don’t have much in common at all.

But if I played THTF, Shackler’s and Man in the Box to some random 60-y/o lady, she would probably say they all sound the same. Not because she’s old, but because she’s not familiar with the songs and it will all sound like distorted electric guitars and screaming.

How can I not be familiar with GN'R music?

I'm an old school fan, I didn't discover Guns in 2006. I know you mean no disrespect but you can't be assuming things about people you dont know.... As for NIN, Im nowhere near in "fandom" for them as I am for GN'R but its not like I know only two songs and that's it.

If you read my comments, I never said that ChinDem and NIN are the same thing. I was particularly talking about the song Shackler's Revenge and how I think there are some similarities with NIN's The Hand That Feeds. I also explained which part and what is that I find similar. Reading beyond that is something that Im not understanding, neither do I think someone needs a music degree (which I have) or to have listened to every album of both bands to be able to find what I consider a similarity in those particular songs.

Like @RussTCB said before, we all have different hearing, different backgrounds too and we all have listened to different things throughout our lives. It is possible that the 60-years-old lady you mention might consider those songs the "same" but if she said "well it sounds like rock n' roll to me", would she be mistaken? No, she wouldn't, because in the end this music is rock, not jazz or tango.

The first part of @RONIN's next comment summerizes pretty well what I intended to say all this time, so I will paste it here, just in case I'm not that good at explaining my POV:

Quote

Axl was obviously inspired by NIN/Manson w/ OMG but I agree with whoever mentioned the CD songs sounding more Nu-Metal-ish. Particularly bands like Korn - Axl was a big fan of those guys - GnR even follows them on twitter. Stuff like Riad, Shacklers, CD and Better have a nu metal substratum. They may have been more conventionally "Korn" before evolving over the years as Axl added more layers and nu metal fell out of vogue. Chinese Democracy was largely conceived during the late 90's and nu-metal/industrial dominated the rock scene back then. The album simply reflects the time period it came from. I'm not entirely sure why this is a controversial opinion here with some aside from the fact that nu-metal is considered hot garbage by most people and it sucks that Axl was influenced by this genre. It is what it is though. Axl's 90's musical obsessions are all over Chinese Democracy.

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by killuridols

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, tremolo said:

But you’re probably not as familiar with NIN music. I meant being familiar with both, not either/or.

I read what you wrote and I don’t hear what you are hearing, that’s all.

I have about 30 NIN songs in my iPod from different albums. I know their catalogue is much bigger than that but a casual fan would have only listened to 3-4 songs at the maximum.

It is okay that you don't hear what I hear.

End of discussion.

[Blackstar]

9 hours ago, RONIN said:

Nearly the whole original team quit and they replaced them with a new producer, lead guitarist, and drummer. Feels almost like there was an Axl or Geffen mandate to change the direction of the album by bringing in a new team. 

Beavan said that, with the exception of giving Oh My God for the End Of Days movie, Axl said "no" to everything the label told him to do and that he, as a producer, is always with the artist and not with the label.

My understanding from the interview is that Axl would want to continue with Beavan, but the label wanted an older and more opinionated producer who could push Axl. By that point that was convenient for Beavan too (a "mutual thing", as he said) because he wanted to put a record out and Axl was revisiting the material and having the newcomers re-record the parts that were already recorded by the ones who had left.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Blackstar

[killuridols]

19 minutes ago, tremolo said:

What we hear is concrete, can be perceived objectively and can also be analyzed. We're not talking about something abstract as in "the way it makes me feel", but what it actually is: a certain note, or chord, or progression, pitch, timbre, tone, tempo, etc. It either is or isn't.
Now, the interpetation, the "mood", "vibe" or "feel" is completely subjective, and yeah, in that regard we can "hear things differently". But a C5 on a grand piano is a C5 on a grand piano, not an F#4 in a guitar with chorus and delay.

I never said one song was a carbon copy of the other (except that line intended as a joke) or that a verse were the same exact notes as the other song verse.

Not once did I go those lengths of analysis and somehow you and the other guy keep trying to read further than what was said, I really don't know with what purpose.... at this point, it seems you are just trying to keep the arguement for the sake of it, since there is nothing left to say.

You dont agree with me and I have accepted it. This should be over

[Draguns]

There's no doubt that CD is an Axl solo effort. If it was a band, you would not be cutting and pasting different solos. Also Shackler's Revenge is definitely inspired by NIN. You can hear it in the song. I said this when CD came out: this would have been a good NIN song. Riad reminds me of nu-metal for the late 90s. 

[Order of Nine]

6 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Yes they were. They were part of the 1990s nu-metal genre. 

Korn has no ounce of credibility in the world of metal and that perception is not something that can be denied. If they had any respect in that regard they would be taken seriously instead of laughed off.