STAR WARS: Convoluted Cash- Cow Disney Adventure Series That Will Never End Thread

[luciusfunk]

Glad Disney finally gave us an

Spoiler

Anakin force ghost

 

It was rumored to be happening in TROS, which it should have.

[Sweersa]

9 hours ago, luciusfunk said:

Glad Disney finally gave us an

  Reveal hidden contents

Anakin force ghost

 

It was rumored to be happening in TROS, which it should have.

I couldn't agree more. I heard rumors they filmed it, but KK cut it out, could be BS though. 

The Disney sequel trilogy is full of problems and missed opportunities. I'm still of the opinion they should have utilized George Lucas's outlines, at least the 9 films would all be his vision, then Disney can do as they please. 

[Cosmo]

The Ahsoka/Thrawn arc is the sequel trilogy the could and should have been. What a missed opportunity.

[rocknroll41]

29 minutes ago, Cosmo said:

The Ahsoka/Thrawn arc is the sequel trilogy the could and should have been. What a missed opportunity.

While I agree with you, to an extent, you gotta remember that when Force Awakens was made, “original trilogy purism” was still at an all-time high, and then the two other sequels had to try to make the most with what little TFA gave them to work with.

[rocknroll41]

For whoever may be curious, I have a new ranking of all the canon films and shows of the franchise on my blog, strictly based on first impressions from when I first saw each entry:

http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/ranking-star-wars-based-on-first.html?m=1

Edited October 28, 2023 by rocknroll41

[ZoSoRose]

27 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

For whoever may be curious, I have a new ranking of all the canon films and shows of the franchise on my blog, strictly based on first impressions from when I first saw each entry:

http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/ranking-star-wars-based-on-first.html?m=1

I like Solo but I don't know how you rate it so high compared to some others!

[Cosmo]

1 hour ago, rocknroll41 said:

For whoever may be curious, I have a new ranking of all the canon films and shows of the franchise on my blog, strictly based on first impressions from when I first saw each entry:

http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2023/10/ranking-star-wars-based-on-first.html?m=1

This is how I’d rank them:

 

Loved it:

1- The Empire Strikes Back

2- Star Wars

3- The Return of the Jedi

4- The Last Jedi

 

Saw It As A Little Kid So…

5- Revenge of the Sith

I liked it but I didn’t Love It:

6- Ahsoka

7- Obi Wan Kenobi

8- The Force Awakens

9- Mandalorian Season 2

10- Mandalorian Season 1

11- Rogue One

Wasn’t Sure How To Feel About It:

12- Mandalorian Season 3

13- The Phantom Menace

Found it a Bit Boring at First:

14- Andor

Didn’t Like It:

15- The Attack of the Clones

16- The Book of Boba Fett

17- Solo

18- Rise of Skywalker

 

Didn’t see any of the animated shows

[rocknroll41]

I imagine we will get an update on the Rey movie soon, now that the strike is over.

[rocknroll41]

They’re marathoning all the sw movies this weekend on tv… I never noticed just how annoying C-3PO is (particularly in ESB and RotJ).

Edited December 4, 2023 by rocknroll41

[downzy]

4 hours ago, rocknroll41 said:

They’re marathoning all the sw movies this weekend… I never noticed just how annoying C-3PO is (particularly in ESB and RotJ).

He's insufferable through most if it.  I get that one of the two marquee robots had to talk, but they gave C-3PO a grating personality.

Honestly, the older I get the less I like the original trilogy.  Empire is a fantastic film for a variety of reasons, but even within it and every other OT film there are some less than enjoyable aspects.  I feel like the OT was big on ideas, maybe not so great on execution.  For me, the prequels had neither (dumb ideas, bad execution).  The sequel trilogy is the closest the series as come to having decent execution, but middling ideas.

Really wish they'd just re-do the whole thing.  It's a great universe and there's so much potential to do it right.  Draw inspiration from the nine-film anthology but make the whole thing make sense.  It's a shame that more people can't be objective about the series as a whole and support reworking the entire thing. 

I make this same rant every six months or so...  So I'll see you all in six months to make the same point.     

[Gibson87]

7 hours ago, downzy said:

For me, the prequels had neither (dumb ideas, bad execution).

I'm curious about which ideas you think are dumb or poorly executed? I personally prefer the prequels (Ep. III has the best third act of the entire trilogy) but they definitely more than their fair share of flaws. They focused too much on the politics in AOTC. It was important to a certain degree as it served to show Palpatine's rise to power but considering 1-6 is essentially the story of Anakin Skywalker, I thought they'd have focused more on his training in Episode II.

[rocknroll41]

12 hours ago, downzy said:

He's insufferable through most if it.  I get that one of the two marquee robots had to talk, but they gave C-3PO a grating personality.

Honestly, the older I get the less I like the original trilogy.  Empire is a fantastic film for a variety of reasons, but even within it and every other OT film there are some less than enjoyable aspects.  I feel like the OT was big on ideas, maybe not so great on execution.  For me, the prequels had neither (dumb ideas, bad execution).  The sequel trilogy is the closest the series as come to having decent execution, but middling ideas.

Really wish they'd just re-do the whole thing.  It's a great universe and there's so much potential to do it right.  Draw inspiration from the nine-film anthology but make the whole thing make sense.  It's a shame that more people can't be objective about the series as a whole and support reworking the entire thing. 

I make this same rant every six months or so...  So I'll see you all in six months to make the same point.     

I think you make a good point as to why I don’t hate the ST as much as everyone else does. For me, execution is a very important part of movies. And yes, the ST has a “cheat” in that it had the access to the most money and modern movie-making tech, but still. Abrams and Johnson, for all their flaws, know how to make beautiful-looking movies with tight editing and great camera work.

I used to think that my enjoyment of the ST was a result of recency bias, as well as being too hyped from it between when it was announced (2012) and when it started (2015), and therefore letting the hype “get to me.” But now I think I actually like it for more objective reasons.

It also helps that 3po is not in the PT or ST as much as he’s in the OT. The only PT film he plays a big part in is AotC, but his slapstick in that one is so bad that it’s almost good (in that at least you can laugh along with just how bad it is). The only ST film he plays a big part in is TRoS, and at least he has somewhat of an arc in that one and isn’t just cowering or bitching the whole time.

EDIT: for the record, I’m not saying that the ST is better than the PT/OT, just that certain aspects of it are. Also, despite my moderate enjoyment of the ST, I’m continuing to feel less excited for the next sequel. The writer/director choices are strange, and the premise of simply “rebuilding the Jedi order” sounds boring. The fact that Rey supposedly waited 15 years to do so makes it even stranger. Would love to be proven wrong, though. I’ll probably go see it alone (so that I can judge the movie as is and not have to deal with friends screaming in my ear about why I should hate it the moment the credits roll).

Edited December 4, 2023 by rocknroll41

[downzy]

3 hours ago, Gibson87 said:

I'm curious about which ideas you think are dumb or poorly executed?

I'll start with the ideas/concepts introduced in Phantom Menace because it really fucks up the entire trilogy.

The whole saga is launched over a trade war.  A trade war. 

Look, I get that in the 90s trade liberalization and arguments over free trade were all the rage, but basing the starting gate of the entire Star Wars/Skywalker saga on shipping quotas and tariffs is a first bad step.

Whereas the Force was this vague and mysterious force in the OT, it's been quantized in the PT with the concept of midi-chlorians.  One of the appeals of Star Wars in the OT was the interplay and tension between science (lasers, light speed, light sabres, etc.) and the less tangible or fantasy-based ideas (the force, faith, belief).  The PT now moves the Force into the realm of science, as it's largely something that's based on biology.  For me, it cheapens and undermines one of the more interesting dynamics of the entire series.

Then there's the concept that Anakin is some sort of Force Jesus.  What?   So the Force gives birth to its messiah who proceeds to fuck everything up for the better part of 40-50 years. 

Qui-Gon tests Anakin and his midi-chlorian count is off the charts, leading him to believe he's the chosen one.  What?  Why?  Yoda couldn't bring "balance to the force" because a few thousand midi-chlorians short? 

From an execution stand point, the casting was the first big whiff.  Outside of Ewan McGregor, the PT is easily one of the worst cast film series I think I've ever come across. 

Lucas starts off the saga by casting the major love interests where the age discrepancy is hard to get past.  Anakin looks like he's seven or eight in PM while Padme looks like she's about to attend her first year at college.  A few years later we're suppose to believe that Anakin aged 15 years while Padame aged a couple.  What?  Forget about the fact that neither actor who played Anakin could act to save their lives, and Portman wasn't exactly killing it on screen either - the performances all around were tough to get past (again, save for maybe McGregor).  I love me some Samuel L, but it was crazy to put such a well-known actor in this film.

(Christ, I haven't even got to Revenge and I've already spent way too much time on this).

One more major execution issue I have the PT is that the world Lucas creates a) is not in any way consistent with the OT and b) looks somehow worse than the OT because of the over-reliance on green screens and CGI.

One of the hardest things for me to get past when PM came out was how sleek everything looked.  The technology presented in the PT somehow looks worlds better than the tech in the OT.  After PM I wondered how they were going to merge the two aesthetics in a way that made sense and wouldn't slap the viewer across the face.  In the end, they didn't.  Once Anakin tuns into the physical form of Vader, everyone for some reason starts looking like they're from the 1970s.  The technology looks like it's taken a giant step back for no other reason than the fact that the Empire now exists.

Lucas's decision to shoot on digital cameras meant they'll forever look natively worse than the OT and ST from a resolution standpoint.  Had he shot them on film they would not be capped at a native resolution of 1080p (yes, there are now 4K versions, but they're just upsampled from the 1080p source). 

The films appear more like cartoons than live action at certain points, made even more apparent when comparing them to the original and sequel trilogies.  Say what you want about the ST, but at least they were (mostly) beautifully shot.  I'm no fan of The Last Jedi, but the final battle scene with the white and red dust is striking.

4 hours ago, Gibson87 said:

(Ep. III has the best third act of the entire trilogy)

For me, this is the worst film of the nine. 

And it's not even close.

It had the most riding on it.  We were finally going to see the transition from Skywalker to Vader. 

I walked into the theatre thinking there was no way Lucas could screw it up. 

And I walked out saying, "well, I was wrong again."

Let's first start with the dialogue.  Lucas was never a master at writing lines for his actors to say, but Revenge has to be some of the worst dialogue ever committed to a script in the history of cinema. 

Anakin: "Only the sith deal in absolutes!"  (Never mind what Yoda says about trying.)

Anakin: "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." 

Yoda: "Not if anything to say about it, I have!"

Padme: "It's only because, I'm so in love."
Anakin: "No, *little laugh* no, it's because, I'm so in love with you."
Padme: "So love has blinded you?"
Anakin: *nervous laugh* "Well, that's not exactly what I meant."
Padme: "But it's probably true."

And the Granddaddy of them all:

Obi-One: "I have the high ground. It's over."

That line alone should relegate this film to the bottom of the pack.  It's so absurdly bad as not only as a line of dialogue but as a plot device that leads to Anakin/Vader's loss.  I get that some have tried to justify this line as some sort of strategy to juice Anakin's rage into making a bad choice.  But that attempt to justify bad writing is just that, a bad justification for a bad plot device.

If the Golden Raspberry awards were to ever create an award for worst line of dialogue, they should call it the "Higher Ground" award.  

And I'm not even going to touch Vader's yell at the end.  It's just mind boggling bad.

The ultimate narrative failure of Revenge is with Padme.  She dies of a broken heart?  What?  How does that work? 

There are a lot of ways the PT undermines the OT, but Padme's death so soon following the birth of Luke and Leia renders one of the more touching scenes in Return (Leia talking to Luke about their mother) at best meaningless and at worst false.  

The entire point of a prequel is to provide context for the original story told earlier.  But Revenge does a great job (as does the entire PT) to undermine the OT and raise more questions than answers.  

It was the film that we had spent decades waiting for.   And not only did it fail to deliver, it made the OT worse.  

That said, some of the problems with Revenge aren't really its fault. 

One of the dynamics that makes the sabre battle between Vader and Luke in Empire so great is you don't really know what's going to happen.  You assume that Luke will win because he's the good guy, but at the same time, he seems so thoroughly outmatched by Vader.  There's a sense of dread that the viewer assumes will be alleviated by Luke somehow prevailing.  But he doesn't (which makes sense) and we're left with an ending that's both novel, satisfying (from a logic standpoint), but also depressing.  The same could sort of be said about the final battle in Return, with Luke again being outmatched against two powerful opponents.  It's through Vader's redemption that Luke survives (arguable if Vader's redemption makes sense).

The final sabre battle in Revenge just doesn't hold up.  Technically it does what it's suppose to do, with both actors doing all the necessary jumps and fencing one wants in a lightsabre battle (though, it doesn't compare to the Kenobi-Vader battle in the TV series).  But you know how it's going to end.  You know that Anakin will lose.  Only question is how Anakin survives and even that makes little sense (why doesn't Obi-One finish him off; how does Anakin survive on the side of a lava field while being utterly fucked up).

I have way more to say about why I found Revenge to be the worst, but I think I'll cap it here.  For me, it just doesn't work as a whole.  The final twenty minutes of Revenge should have been its own film. 

If I had to boil down the primary problem I have with the PQ, it's that we got two and a half films of setup for 30 minutes of pay off.  

[downzy]

3 hours ago, rocknroll41 said:

I think you make a good point as to why I don’t hate the ST as much as everyone else does. For me, execution is a very important part of movies. And yes, the ST has a “cheat” in that it had the access to the most money and modern movie-making tech, but still. Abrams and Johnson, for all their flaws, know how to make beautiful-looking movies with tight editing and great camera work.

I don't think you need oodles of money to make the films look good.  There's still a lot of the OT that holds up for me. 

With the prequels, Lucas made the mistake of bear hugging CGI technology.  And the CGI from those films do not hold up.  Granted, a lot of film makers back then were all about CGI.  It was this new shiny toy that many embraced without questioning whether it looked good.   And back then, CGI could often paper over weaknesses.  

3 hours ago, rocknroll41 said:

I used to think that my enjoyment of the ST was a result of recency bias, as well as being too hyped from it between when it was announced (2012) and when it started (2015), and therefore letting the hype “get to me.” But now I think I actually like it for more objective reasons.

I still like the ST (for the most part).  Not a huge fan of The Last Jedi, but for all its problems from a narrative stand point I still think it's the most beautifully shot Star Wars film.  There are aspects in each film that I enjoy.  I can't say the same thing about the prequels (though Darth Maul was cool; shame he died in PM).

3 hours ago, rocknroll41 said:

EDIT: for the record, I’m not saying that the ST is better than the PT/OT, just that certain aspects of it are.

The prequels are suppose to serve the OT; where as the OT serves the ST.  In that sense the PQ have a harder job.  The ST can rely a bit on the momentum established by the OT.  So they definitely benefit from that dynamic.  There's not as fun and lighted hearted in the film as Han Solo's interplay with Chewie and other characters; A Force Awakens definitely benefits from having this character dynamic present.

For me, it's OT>ST>PT from a narrative stand point.  From a technical stand point, it's ST>OT>PT.

[rocknroll41]

@downzyi agree with your two rankings at the bottom there. Literally the only thing the PT has going for it is that I saw it as a kid and it was my entry to SW. I guess you can also say it’s the trilogy where Lucas got to express himself creatively the most.

I like a lot of the thematic ideas that TLJ had, but the dialogue in that movie is dreadful. The Abrams ones make a better first impression and are easier to watch, but when you start to think about them enough, you realize that both movies are basically just nostalgia and mystery boxes.

As you said, each trilogy/film has unique pros and cons.

Edited December 4, 2023 by rocknroll41

[ZoSoRose]

The older I get, the more I maintain that Star Wars is only genuinely good if you grew up with it. If you are in your even 20s and are just watching it for the first time, now, you probably will think it is stupid. I say that as someone who overall loves Star Wars as a nostalgia- fan. You can probably dig up ancient posts from me on here in The Force Awakens thread. The 2012 announcement of the sequel trilogy blew my mind and unlocked the true nostalgia chemicals in my college- aged brain at the time. Now I am older, and I realize the series is kind of stupid. 

The OT- This is Star Wars. Everything else is like a reunion tour or fever dream shit. The OT is the original band's original run. They are iconic adventure movies from the classic era of blockbusters. They are like time capsules to those eras. If you are old, you can put them on your shelf with the other movies you grew up with in this era. Throw it up there with 1970s and 1980s classics like Jaws, Close Encounters, Wrath of Khan, ET, Indiana Jones, etc and they look right at home. Is A New Hope too slow? Are the special effects a bit cheap or dated sometimes? Do the retcons, plot holes, pacing, and tonal inconsistencies in Return of the Jedi give you whiplash? Who cares?! Just chalk it up to these being old, beloved, classics. You have simple, but very iconic and likeable characters, timeless designs, legendary music, and an intriguing and now- very famous science- fantasy world that has become the most famous in movie- history all in one package. The story even wraps up with a happy ending and a bow. You guessed it, I grew up with these movies, so I think they are great. I was one of two target audiences when the special editions hit in the 1990s- adults who grew up with the movies, and children who liked space toys. I was in the latter category. Star Wars was the greatest thing since sliced bread to those two groups. If you have never seen the OT, you might appreciate these as fun, older adventure flicks. but if you think about the story too hard by the time you get to Jedi, your head will hurt. You probably won't be converted, at this point. 

The PT- Alright, the OT was milked again in the 1990s and it was a huge success. It is time to bring this all back with an all- new saga! We all know how that went. This is where the band gets experimental on paper, but in truth, there are still the core elements there (lightsabers and spaceships and Yoda and shit) but the final product is a mess. The PT is Chinese Democracy. These three movies get weirder with age. They are actually kind of bananas and they have gotten more credit with the arrival of the ST, but no, they are not high- quality movies. They still suck. These are bad movies in a completely different way than the ST. These are not committee- made movies, they are the brainchild of the whacky mind of Lucas. Lucas had collaborators and handlers for the OT, and even the story in the originals turned into a slop- fest by the end. George Lucas just kitchen- sinked these three movies with every weird and stupid idea and design he had. To be honest, they never really did feel like Star Wars, but this is when Star Wars really became more than that little snapshot you got with the old movies. I agree with @downzy that the aesthetic is not like the OT. The crazy cgi is dated, the writing and dialog is hot garbage, and the story is hard to follow in the PT. Its funny how much George Lucas had to do backflips to insert all the characters in the originals into this. Darth Vader building C-3PO is peak "who gives a fuck."

Again, if someone has never seen a SW movie and you fire up Phantom Menace, they will fall asleep and check out. If you make it to Clones, they will look at you like you are crazy by the time you have Anakin and Padme rolling around in the fields with the pig creatures. They might think something like, "You buy toys for your desk at the office for these shit movies?!" The PT is only for diehard fans of the series, or those that grew up with this version of SW. I was in second grade for Phantom Menace. It was good shit, back then, even though I was way too young and stupid to understand the core story. "Wow! A little kid like me can be in a space battle! Wow! Darth Maul!" Stupid. 

The ST- Fuck. Arguably the most hyped shit in movie history and they really fucked it up. The ST is the reunion and the future. The story ended but the people want more! There is money to be made, so fuck it! The Force Awakens is that initial reunion. You get all the old gang back for one last adventure. The special effects are a lot better than the PT, the stuff in the movie looks a lot like the stuff in the OT (Wow! The Millennium Falcon! Wow! Old Han Solo and Chewbacca and Princess Leia! Wow! X Wings and TIE Fighters) and that is really exciting at first. Then you realize it is all the same as what you remember, but a little bit different. Maybe you weren't around in the 70s/80s so it's exciting seeing this shit on the big screen. That movie was pretty redundant, but it was a safe, fun, nostalgia- bate watch that sets up cool things. Maybe the other two movies will be different and exciting! It was clear The Force Awakens was focus grouped to get the maximum amount of people to like it. And it worked. The movie made a zillion dollars, fans were too busy taking a bath in nostalgia to notice how plain and repetitive the story was (myself included), and new people could easily hop on the train here. The new characters were cool, too. When you really think about the film, though, it also did story backflips. Whereas the PT did them to insert old characters, the ST did them to return the universe to the OT's status- quo. It is boring and strange that it is just essentially rebels vs empire, again and that all the old characters abandoned their character arcs and are doing what they did in the OT. It doesn't matter that TV shows and books explain it, that interesting shit should have been in the movie. I also think an unspoken sin of The Force Awakens is also how its success led to Hollywood going absolutely batshit insane with nostalgia- bait releases, but that is a different discussion. Ironically, I am starting to look back at The Force Awakens era with nostalgia because I have good memories associated with 2012-2015. It is so fucked up. I have nostalgia for the nostalgia. What a fucked up chemical imbalance this all is. For that reason, I still enjoy this movie.

Then Last Jedi comes out and it annihilates the fanbase. From 2017 onward anything to do with Star Wars becomes a stupid battleground. The movie is a mess, but I actually like Last Jedi and appreciate that it at least tried to be a little original and different (even though the core story isn't as different as people think). @Cosmo and I are are 2 out 7 people worldwide that seem to genuinely like it more than not, though. It needed a lot more editing, and another go at the story draft, but so do most SW movies. I didn't leave the theater with an air bump, but this is the SW sequel I have spent the most time thinking about with the highest high points for me. It has actually improved with age. The movie actually looks amazing and has some great performances from the cast. With a bit tighter of a story, I think they were almost there, but Disney wanted all these movies rushed out. A divisive film like this is never good for a franchise this big. Rian Johnson said something before it came out, I think like, "If half the people love it, and half hate it, I made the movie I wanted to make". That is a stupid thing to say as the director and writer of a tentpole SW movie. It led to one of the worst big- budget blockbusters ever made with Rise of Skywalker. This movie is like if a stupid AI wrote a SW movie to try to appeal to as many stupid fans as possible. I will always be in disbelief that Rise of Skywalker got greenlit. It is utterly shocking to me that so many executives and businesspeople could read that script and watch what was being shot and say, "yup! This makes sense!". I thought I liked it for a second because it was the last big Star Wars movie (supposedly) with the old cast, but then you think about it and you know you can trust your brain. Your brain knew something was wrong while you were watching it. The movie is actually offensive because it treats the audience AND cast and crew with such contempt by how nonsensical and poorly made it is. It is what a Rick Ruben- GNR reunion album would be if they tried to splice CD2 leftovers with a Welcome to the Jungle 2. It is like a 7- year- old playing with their toys and making up a story as they go. I mean that in the worst possible way. Because of how big of a disaster this film is and the disjointed nature of the ST as a whole, this is also a very poor place to enter if you have not watched the series before. I don't even say that because it is the "end" of the story. That doesn't even matter, really.

There also will not be a generation that grows up in 15- 20 years that magically loves these movies and story- era like they did the PT. There is way too much corporate- entertainment- competition. If anything, Marvel pre- Endgame has that market, but kids also have phones and tablets, now. The Force Awakens was almost a generational event, but then Disney flubbed it and this era turned into corporate goo. 

Live Action Shows/Spin Off Movies, etc.- If you don't care about any of the above, forget about these. The best by far (imo) is Rogue One, Mandalorian Season 1 and 2 and Andor but even those all rely on the series' lore and imagery to an extent. You could probably enjoy the first season of Mando and Andor without caring about Star Wars too much, though. The rest ranges from okay to junk. 

TLDR- Star Wars only remotely holds up if you have nostalgia for it. The more you have, the more you accept from it. Only the original and Empire are genuinely good from the 9 main ones

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by ZoSoRose

[rocknroll41]

@ZoSoRoseyou can add me to the list of 7 people that mostly likes TLJ.

[downzy]

3 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

That movie was pretty redundant, but it was a safe, fun, nostalgia- bate watch that sets up cool things. Maybe the other two movies will be different and exciting!

This is and was my thinking regarding Force Awakens.  For me, it's the best of the three sequel films.  It was still fun, even if it was a re-hash.  And that was largely on the back of seeing what happened after Return and Harrison Ford reprising his role as Han.  It certainly isn't without its faults.  It's essentially A New Hope redux.  Even Han Solo makes the comment about how they have done it before (in reference to blowing up the Death Star versus the dumb death planet).  And not including Luke until the last 30 seconds felt like a waste.  But it was safe, dumb fun and I enjoyed it for what it was.  It was a better looking New Hope that made more sense in some respects.  And I know some disagree, but for me, it did setup the series well.  The problem was they gave the film to a different writer/director who decided to go in a different direction.  Too many cooks in the kitchen but not enough hands at the wheel either.  

[downzy]

3 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

Then Last Jedi comes out and it annihilates the fanbase. From 2017 onward anything to do with Star Wars becomes a stupid battleground. The movie is a mess, but I actually like Last Jedi and appreciate that it at least tried to be a little original and different (even though the core story isn't as different as people think)

My issue with The Last Jedi (well, my main issue, I have a lot of them) is that it tries to shift the overall story away from the story of Skywalker.  It sort of democratizes the force that takes the focus off the Skywalker story.  What is the story of Star Wars so far but the story of the Skywalkers.  I love that Rhian wanted to do something new.  Great.  But tell a consistent story at least.  Start a new instalment about other force sensitive people that doesn't muddy up the story of the Skywalkers.  For me, that's the film's greatest fault (with Leia's space Mary Poppins routine not far behind).  

There's a better story after Return, the issue I think the producers had was that the original cast was too old to tell that story.  So they largely got put on the back burner and let a new cast of characters carry the weight.  Which would be fine if they could have done a better job tying it into the first six films.  Too many narrative zig-zags due to the conflict in ideas of the two directors.  

[rocknroll41]

Eh, ive said before that, in hindsight, TFA “ruined” the ST from the start by doing nothing but nostalgia and mystery boxes. TLJ at least tried to make something new/ substantial out of it all.

That said, TFA is much easier/funner to rewatch than TLJ, and made a better first impression than either TLJ or TRoS. Like I said a few posts ago, most of the dialogue in TLJ is awful, whereas the dialogue in the abrams films is not so bad.

Abrams and Johnson have different strengths and weaknesses, and it shows.

As I’ve said awhile back, all this constant discourse around sw is making me think I might not go see the TRoS continuation. On the other hand, sw is like the closet thing we have to a modern mythology. It almost feels important to go see them (especially the main ones). Which is weird, considering how silly they all are (yes, even ESB).

Edited December 6, 2023 by rocknroll41

[ZoSoRose]

TLJ has really big issues.

1. Finn and Rose. I get what they were going for with this subplot, and it gives Finn a lot more to do than in IX (lol). It is just really sloppy. They leave to go on a side quest during a space- siege. The side story itself has a very poor setup. The conversation with Maz Kanata was awful and cheesy. Her saying to go to a specific table across the galaxy to find a specific person makes no sense- it is like an NPC giving you a scripted quest in a video game. Of course, he is there, but it is a red herring. They happen to find a guy that works for their mission perfectly when they go to space jail for a... parking ticket? Then they go back to the space siege and end up where they started. Along the way we get bad special effects and awkward set pieces with the horse chase and BB- 8 AT- ST shit. Bad. The message they were going for is actually pretty advanced for Star Wars- "war is bad and people can profit by playing both sides. Not everyone is a bad guy or good guy, some are in the middle." That is like 6th grade comprehension wheras the rest of Star Wars is 1st grade. The thing is, it wasn't portrayed great in the movie. Kudos for trying? Maybe not... Having a side plot for Finn and a new friend with Rose (although they could have just paired him with Poe) is not a bad idea, it is just what they came up with did not land. Maybe have them go to the Star Destroyer and Finn helps incite a stormtrooper uprising or something. 

2. Luke Skywalker. If you are vehemently against what they did to Luke Skywalker, then this entire movie falls apart and I get why you hate it. Luke is the big trump card the sequels had for a lot of fans. The fact that Mark Hamill, Harrisson Ford, and Carrie Fisher do not all share a scene is absolutely insane to me and one of the biggest missed layups in blockbuster history. Anyways, that is a JJ problem. JJ also chose to exile Luke so Rian's only options were: have him there to protect or hide something, or have him be in exile because he fucked up. The latter was set up in VII, so he went with that. He went too far by having Luke contemplate killing Kylo, but the idea was there. I don't hate Luke in this movie because Mark Hamill does such an amazing job portraying him. There are tons of great Luke moments in the movie if you can get past the lightsaber toss and alien milk (which is over- complained about imo). Him explaining the force, meeting with Yoda, the falcon scene, meeting with Leia, Kylo conversation. All top- notch character shit imo. He feels like a real person instead of neutered monk- man in Jedi and the new TV shows. I loved that he got the big scene of the movie, but I don't think they should have killed him. I know it doesn't matter because he is an immortal ghost, but maybe having more "hero Luke" in IX would have helped. 

3. Princess Leia. The Leia Poppins scene. Again, the idea is fine. It is cool we see Leia use the force. I am okay they didn't kill her, here, because she has a great scene with Luke at the end. Other than that, she doesn't do much in the movie. Still, it would have made sense to kill her off here and keep Luke alive by the end of the movie considering Carrie Fisher died. Anyways, they should have had her floating a few feet away instead of a mile. Have her use the force subtly. Gets the same message across and looks way less stupid. 

4. Space siege. This was sloppy because they tried to make Laura Dern an antagonist for no reason. Have her just explain her plan from the start and have Poe disagree. Or just axe her character and have him and Leia at odds until they band together at the end of the movie. Done. Shit, they even have Leia and Poe at odds in the beginning. That was a good setup that didn't have a great payoff because they sidelined Leia for a new character nobody cares about. Give Ackbar the lightspeed ram moment, or something. It isn't like a ton of people cared about Laura Dern, anyways. Ackbar is a bit character, but at least nerds would have appreciated it. 

5. Humor and dialog. Some landed, a good amount did not. The "your mama" joke was weird, the lightsaber toss was misplaced, Rose's cheesy love line and the unearned kiss (don't get me started on the awful Rey-Kylo one in IX). All could have been trimmed with another script pass. 

Now, that is all a lot wrong with the film. As much as I like TLJ, I can admit it has a ton of bad parts and is a mess. That being said, there are a ton of high points for me. It also feels like an actual movie. What I mean by that is, it feels like a story that was written by a creative- warts and all. I do appreciate that about it, kind of like the prequels. It has the slop of the prequels but with OT characters and some better parts, actually. The art direction and cinematography is also sublime. It is the best-looking modern- day Star Wars movie. They even dropped the ball there for the next one. Because Star Wars sucks aside from the first two movies, this is still probably my third favorite one.

I agree with @rocknroll41 that Abrams and Johnson have different strengths and weaknesses, but I have no idea wtf happened with IX. It did not feel like Abrams to me. As safe and focus grouped the story in TFA is, it still feels like it was made with relative passion. Abrams put care into the world he was making in that movie and put effort into the characters and their interactions in it. The dialog is more natural in TFA, wheras I feel like the writing and dialog is awful in IX. TRoS feels soulless; like it was made in a boardroom, but the businesspeople are all children and chimpanzees. I don't think he truly wanted to come back, and I believe there were a lot of studio stipulations from the Disney machine after TLJ split audiences so much. I somehow don't blame him for that film because I cannot believe that is truly the story and ending for the characters he created and set up in TFA.  

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by ZoSoRose

[downzy]

I think the other problem I have with TLJ is that it's just not a whole lot of fun to watch.

Star Wars at its best is giving audiences high-wire action (lightsaber duels, space ship combat, etc.) with swashbuckling adventure with lighthearted moments between charismatic and likeable characters.  As messy as Rise of Skywalker was, at least it had the last element.  

Johnson stripped most of the fun adventurous part out TLJ. 

It took itself way too seriously at the expense of fun.  As much as I don't like Phantom Menace, at least there were some fun aspects about it.

What could be more fun than a slow-motion chase in space (that makes little sense if you think about it).

The guy you're supposedly rooting for (Poe) throughout the entire film turns out to be wrong because the person you're setup to not like (Vice-Admiral Holdo) turns out to have a strategy that would have saved everyone.  Why this plan isn't shared?  Doesn't matter.  We've just spent most of the movie cheering for the wrong person.

The closest attempt at "fun" in the film is the trip to Canto Bight (which turned out to be a pointless trip) where the audience is confronted with animal cruelty and child labour.  So much fun!

And then there's the slog with Luke, which turns one of the most beloved characters into a jaded and bitter curmudgeon that Yoda only bothers to visit once Luke has figured out that his years of sulking isn't helping anyone.  Thanks Yoda for not showing up before all the damage was done.

We finally get to see Luke in action, but the ability to enjoy the fight is removed once we're told that it's not really Luke - it's space-ghost Luke where the stakes of his battle with Kylo Ren mean next to nothing.  Yeah!   And then he dies.  Why?  No real real explanation.  It's up there with Padme's death that makes little sense.  

The Last Jedi suffers from the same tonal issues that The Dark Knight Rises does: just too much foreboding dread with few light and fun moments.  

With Empire we still had moments of levity and the audience didn't feel beaten down throughout most of the film.

Again, TLJ is a film that takes the Star Wars franchise way too seriously.  Forget about my issues with how it completely changes the trajectory of the entire series by virtue of discounting the Skywalker saga and democratizes the force.  It assumes the heart of the Star Wars film lies in the franchises's lore; that what the audience really wants is a deep dive into the mysticism of the force at the expense of everything else.  Star Wars is great when it's fun.  And I found little fun in The Last Jedi nor did I appreciate being hoodwinked by the Poe storyline and Luke's final scene.    

The film is beautifully shot.  Love the opening scene where Poe takes out the Dreadnought.  The choice to remove the sound during the kamikaze scene was really cool.  And the visuals and direction during the final battle scene were stellar.  There just wasn't much about the rest of the film that worked for me.  

Anyway, this discussion got me thinking about all of this again so felt the need to get it out.

 

[ZoSoRose]

28 minutes ago, downzy said:

I think the other problem I have with TLJ is that it's just not a whole lot of fun to watch.

Star Wars at its best is giving audiences high-wire action (lightsaber duels, space ship combat, etc.) with swashbuckling adventure with lighthearted moments between charismatic and likeable characters.  As messy as Rise of Skywalker was, at least it had the last element.  

Johnson stripped most of the fun adventurous part out TLJ. 

It took itself way too seriously at the expense of fun.  As much as I don't like Phantom Menace, at least there were some fun aspects about it.

What could be more fun than a slow-motion chase in space (that makes little sense if you think about it).

The guy you're supposedly rooting for (Poe) throughout the entire film turns out to be wrong because the person you're setup to not like (Vice-Admiral Holdo) turns out to have a strategy that would have saved everyone.  Why this plan isn't shared?  Doesn't matter.  We've just spent most of the movie cheering for the wrong person.

The closest attempt at "fun" in the film is the trip to Canto Bight (which turned out to be a pointless trip) where the audience is confronted with animal cruelty and child labour.  So much fun!

And then there's the slog with Luke, which turns one of the most beloved characters into a jaded and bitter curmudgeon that Yoda only bothers to visit once Luke has figured out that his years of sulking isn't helping anyone.  Thanks Yoda for not showing up before all the damage was done.

We finally get to see Luke in action, but the ability to enjoy the fight is removed once we're told that it's not really Luke - it's space-ghost Luke where the stakes of his battle with Kylo Ren mean next to nothing.  Yeah!   And then he dies.  Why?  No real real explanation.  It's up there with Padme's death that makes little sense.  

The Last Jedi suffers from the same tonal issues that The Dark Knight Rises does: just too much foreboding dread with few light and fun moments.  

With Empire we still had moments of levity and the audience didn't feel beaten down throughout most of the film.

Again, TLJ is a film that takes the Star Wars franchise way too seriously.  Forget about my issues with how it completely changes the trajectory of the entire series by virtue of discounting the Skywalker saga and democratizes the force.  It assumes the heart of the Star Wars film lies in the franchises's lore; that what the audience really wants is a deep dive into the mysticism of the force at the expense of everything else.  Star Wars is great when it's fun.  And I found little fun in The Last Jedi nor did I appreciate being hoodwinked by the Poe storyline and Luke's final scene.    

The film is beautifully shot.  Love the opening scene where Poe takes out the Dreadnought.  The choice to remove the sound during the kamikaze scene was really cool.  And the visuals and direction during the final battle scene were stellar.  There just wasn't much about the rest of the film that worked for me.  

Anyway, this discussion got me thinking about all of this again so felt the need to get it out.

 

Even though I like VIII, I cannot deny that those are all very good points. The core movie is kind of a long slog and inserting bad "Marvel humor" doesn't make it light or fun. I also agree the Luke death was contrived and stupid. 

Anyways, I know I use mental backflips to say I like the movie. In truth, the ST is a mess and a colossal, missed opportunity, possibly the biggest in film. I think SW played its hand and the days of it being a cultural event are gone. Disney had one chance to really cash in on the nostalgia with the original cast, and they did not do a good job. I know we are now getting endless shows and new movies are on the horizon- but they have now all just joined the stream of streaming content alongside all the other soulless corporate entertainment.

It isn't all bad, Disney got lucky getting one last taste of pop- culture relevance with baby Yoda and Mandalorian. Even though the latest season was bad, the first two are fun. I also think Andor is phenomenal, but that is because it had a good story and good writing. It would be good without being Star Wars. Star Wars will always have fans and people that tune- in, but so does every franchise. It is not special, anymore, and I don't think there is anything they can do to make it so, again. You can't replicate the characters and the decade+ in between each trilogy from 1977- 2015. 

I cannot believe they are double downing and making the next movie a Rey movie, and with another unproved director who has limited action- adventure experience. I don't despise the character like a lot of people do, I think she started strong and was let down by the last movie (like the entire new cast). I just don't see the masses turning up for this; they are making a movie about an experienced Jedi who is restarting the Jedi after the Empire was defeated. Literally what VII was supposed to be, how is that exciting? What was all the point?

They are in a no- win scenario with the franchise. The franchise has been so split and hit- and- miss. The TV shows have also been all over the place. The closest thing they have to hype is The Mandalorian. Linking their post- Jedi TV shows with a big, dumb event movie on the big screen is probably the closest thing they have to a hyped cultural event. But even that would be messy with CGI legacy characters and a big villain that is kind of dull (Thrawn). I thought the first few episodes of the Ahsoka show were cool, then it turned into a funless slog that relied way too much on cartoons. Not hot- garbage like IX, but still messy. Shit is off the rails with a billion characters, zombies, and CGI Mark Hamills, but maybe the big, dumb movie will get people excited? Or maybe it won't. Even if all this is pulled off, it still leads to the ST.

Edited December 6, 2023 by ZoSoRose

[downzy]

25 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Anyways, I know I use mental backflips to say I like the movie. In truth, the ST is a mess and a colossal, missed opportunity, possibly the biggest in film. I think SW played its hand and the days of it being a cultural event are gone. Disney had one chance to really cash in on the nostalgia with the original cast, and they did not do a good job. I know we are now getting endless shows and new movies are on the horizon- but they have now all just joined the stream of streaming content alongside all the other soulless corporate entertainment.

I guess for people who liked TLJ, Return of Skywalker was a let down.

But for people like me who felt TLJ kind of killed the series, I just really didn't care how Skywalker turned out.  I hoped J.J. could fix what Johnson broke, but the air had been let out of the balloon at that point and I just didn't care.  If I cared at the point it was out of sheer curiosity how'd they land the plane.  

As for ST being a cultural event, I think it's a bit unrealistic in this day and age to expect anything of achieving what Star Wars and other big cultural drivers once did.  Things are too fragmented.  Everyone is into their own thing, whether it be news, games, music, tv shows, etc.  There are five to ten films every year trying to be or do what Star Wars did in the 70s and 80s and no one really cares anymore.  It's akin to people around here talking about the path to GNR being relevant again; that all they need is one big album and they'll be on top of the world again like they were in the 90s.  But that's never going to happen.  People turned out for The Force Awakes out of nostalgia.  But the ST was never going to be the next "Star Wars" - if you get my drift - even there was a well thought out plan (which there clearly was not).  Star Wars in the 70s was a completely new thing in terms of technical innovations and merging classic storytelling with the new frontier of space.  It was novel in so many ways that no film or series can be these days (the closest is probably the MCU up until Endgame). 

I don't think either J.J. or Johnson were making their Star Wars films to check boxes laid out to them by Disney's executive class.  I think they both made the movies they wanted to make (unless someone can show me a quote where either claimed they were limited).  I know Disney put a stop to Trevorrow's vision, but based on what I read for what he had in mind, thank god for that.  I think they did their best with what they had.  I'd love a proper reunion film of the original cast.  But delving into the EU stories just wasn't possible with the age of the original cast.  So I'm less inclined to blame "corporate entertainment" than just the limits of what each director had to work with.  Doesn't mean I agree with their choices (as I explain above).  But I'm not sure I'd agree that if Lucas had never sold SW to Disney that a ST would have been any better.  Based on the PQ, I think they would have been worse.  

25 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I also think Andor is phenomenal, but that is because it had a good story and good writing

Andor was sensational.  The prison episode is some of the best television I've seen in years.  But you're right, it had little or nothing to do with Star Wars.  It just so happened to be set in the SW universe.  

[downzy]

27 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

They are in a no- win scenario with the franchise. The franchise has been so split and hit- and- miss.

This is why I'd love to see them reboot the whole thing. 

Start from the very beginning.  Make the story of Anakin make sense.  Use much better casting.  Setup where the series is going to go from the very beginning and sort of work backwards.  Have a master and unified vision.  Take the best parts of Star Wars and eliminate what didn't work.  

That said, I don't think doing this would re-capture the magic and make SW a cultural phenomenon.  You get your moment and then it's gone.  People will want the next thing, not a retread of something they've already experienced (which is why people are moving on from the MCU).  But telling the story again from a fresh and logical perspective that doesn't involve tripping over itself could still be a worthwhile exercise for me at least because as much as I enjoy Star Wars, it's not my religion like it is for some people.  And I guess for many rebooting the whole thing might be considered blasphemous.