Covid-19 Thread

[EvanG]

^ calimerocomplex

[soon]

3 minutes ago, Dazey said:

You do have the finest beers in the world though which is far more important.  

They used to, thats for sure  Next time youre Stateside head north of the border and Ill change your mind 

[Whiskey Rose]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

ou got so close to getting a like from me. If you had just ended in time 

The Oil of Oregano?  

I'm a staunch supporter, and that's ok if not everyone is. But it just might be helpful to some. 

 

[ZoSoRose]

Do you snort the oregano?

[Whiskey Rose]

2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Do you snort the oregano?

For you, sure, give it a go. 

[ZoSoRose]

PerhapsI I am  particularly cranky today

[Whiskey Rose]

I have a "natural" remedy for that too! 

[soon]

COVID-19 sounds like the name of a PornHub channel

[action]

8 minutes ago, soon said:

COVID-19 sounds like the name of a PornHub channel

one that risks getting you a virus

... I'll get my coat

[action]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

But this has nothing to do with your outright denial and rejection of data on covid-19 fatality rates. This is you not accepting established facts because you don't understand how science, or society, works. 

 

'outright denial' is an unfair accusation you lay on me. I misread a graph earlier, which is true, and I apologize. Then, when the record was set straight, I made my reservations clear about the validity of the numbers. You have to note, that many of these numbers were provided by the chinese government, which are proven liars with how they wanted to silence the outbreak in the first place.

Edited March 5, 2020 by action

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, action said:

'outright denial' is an unfair accusation you lay on me. I misread a graph earlier, which is true, and I apologize. Then, when the record was set straight, I made my reservations clear about the validity of the numbers. You have to note, that many of these numbers were provided by the chinese government, which are proven liars with how they wanted to silence the outbreak in the first place.

But whether you trust data provided by the Chinese government -- and which are for the record apparently trusted by WHO and other international bodies of health -- has nothing to do with your ramblings against science. 

And your denial of the data doesn't limit itself to just that one graph which you misread, you have throughout this thread written about not trusting science yet trusting "common sense" and what your "eyes and ears" tell you. You have demonstrated a profound distrust of facts and have rejected them consistently when they have stood in the way of your own decisions that this disease is a danger to you.

Edited March 5, 2020 by SoulMonster

[action]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But whether you trust data provided by the Chinese government -- and which are for the record apparently trusted by WHO and other international bodies of health -- has nothing to do with your ramblings against science. 

And your denial of the data doesn't limit itself to just that one graph which you misread, you have throughout this thread written about not trusting science yet trusting "common sense" and what your "eyes and ears" tell you. You have demonstrated a profound distrust of facts and have rejected them consistently when they have stood in the way of your own decisions that this disease is a danger to you.

I want to believe though. I'm just naturally sceptic and cautious, in everything I do.

when I use my eyes and ears, I'm basically doing scientific research myself. Every scientific experiment ever done, is based on observation. What can not be observed, can not be explained (black holes), what is observed can refute an older theory (earth moving around the sun). There is no reason why my eyes, my observations, would be of less value as an observation made by a scientist. My clock runs different than the clock of a scientist (see the relativity of time), for example. Absolute truth, is something that can never be achieved. Only approximation is possible. On the most fundamental levels, scientists can not agree about the state of a particle. Different experiments yield different results. 

Certainly in the case of this virus, where knowledge is limited and our understanding changes daily (such as with the recent mutation of the virus), constant attention is needed, and what was true yesterday may not be true anymore today.

Add in political intervention in the publication of data, and you might wonder what value do graphs anyway. That is an evaluation that everyone of us has to make, and I'm not obliging anyone to follow my interpretation. My interpretation is as valid as anyone elses.

That is the extent of my sceptism, and my confusion. The life of people is at stake, and that is not something that should be taken lightly.

[SoulMonster]

Just now, action said:

I want to believe though. I'm just naturally sceptic and cautious, in everything I do.

To the extent that you has expressed a belief that the entire scientific community and every government across the world is collaborating in on some global conspiracy to keep the actual death rates for children unknown so as to not cause panic. Your words. That goes beyond what most people would consider sensible skepticism and caution, and is well beyond and into the land of the the nuts.

 

3 minutes ago, action said:

when I use my eyes and ears, I'm basically doing scientific research myself.

No, you aren't.

 

3 minutes ago, action said:

Every scientific experiment ever done, is based on observation. What can not be observed, can not be explained (black holes)

But black holes are observed. Not with the eyes, but with other instruments.

 

4 minutes ago, action said:

There is no reason why my eyes, my observations, would be of less value as an observation made by a scientist. 

Oh, I can think of many! But most importantly, the observations done by scientists are done using strict experimental rules and the data are then published in peer-reviewed papers allowing the scientific community to verify the results and build onto it. You going round using your eyes is something very different than science. And this just underlines the fact that you know so very little about science.

 

6 minutes ago, action said:

 Certainly in the case of this virus, where knowledge is limited and our understanding changes daily (such as with the recent mutation of the virus)

But our understanding doesn't change daily. You make it seem like one day the fatality rate for children is 80 % and then next day it is 0.0 %. Which is rubbish. Since we started researching this virus our understanding has just gotten better. Our data-sets have become larger and thus more precise. Since day one, zero kids have died from this virus. This means that the fatality rate for kids has remained at 0.0 %.This hasn't changed at all. As I have said repeatdled, I do expect this to raise somewhat, but it is extremely unlikely it will go above 0.1 % in western countries. That is just simple statistical analysis. 

 

9 minutes ago, action said:

constant attention is needed, and what was true yesterday may not be true anymore today.

Constant attention is needed, and trust me, this disease is getting more attention than anything else at the moment. Do you doubt this, too?

 

10 minutes ago, action said:

Add in political intervention in the publication of data, and you might wonder what value do graphs anyway. 

No, but I am not a conspiracy theorist. I find the idea that these numbers are faked incredibly ridiculous. And it is weird coming from someone who professes to be "skeptical" and "cautious". Here's is how it really is: You are skeptical and cautious to anything that challenges your own half-assed, conspiracy theories. And you are extremely open and accommodating to ridiculous brainfarts you might have.

 

12 minutes ago, action said:

That is the extent of my sceptism, and my confusion. The life of people is at stake, and that is not something that should be taken lightly.

No one is taken anything lightly. But in addition to fighting an epidemic we also have people like you who go round and spread insane conspiracy theories while refuting facts and data. You are part of the problem and very far from being part of the solution.

[action]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You are part of the problem and very far from being part of the solution.

I have not asked for this outbreak, I don't have solutions for this nor do I feel I need to provide them.

People like me, keep other people awake. People should trust their own observations. 

Immanuel kant has put it in this way: "Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man's inability to make use of his understanding wirthout direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude!. Have courage to use your own reason!"

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, action said:

I have not asked for this outbreak, I don't have solutions for this nor do I feel I need to provide them.

No, I think I speak for everyone when I say it's okay, you don't need to provide any of your solutions. We already know you use face masks despite having learnt they likely only increase your risk of attracting the virus and that you considered keeping your boy at home from school despite recommendations. If that's on level of what you can bring of solutions then no thanks, I have had about as much as I can stomach.

But the problem isn't what you do to yourself, because I couldn't really care less about you, but the fact that you have said your family is also swept up in hysteria. And I find it hard to think this isn't partly your fault. What we absolutely don't need, is hysterical people making bad decisions and spreading inane conspiracy theories, because that will result in more people being fearful, more people worrying when they shouldn't, and more people doing stupid things. And so far, this disease directly only affects a few people (a few hundreds in Europe have contracted the disease), yet indirectly, through fear and hysteria, it affects many, many, many more. It is like a disease upon the disease. A disease that is just in peoples' mind but can make them just as sick as a minor respiratory infection. And you are carrying this disease and seem to be hellbent on spreading it to others.

10 minutes ago, action said:

Immanuel kant has put it in this way: "Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man's inability to make use of his understanding wirthout direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude!. Have courage to use your own reason!"

I think I have said it before, but all philosophers can just go straight and fuck themselves. 

[action]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

 

I think I have said it before, but all philosophers can just go straight and fuck themselves. 

kant was a great influence on albert einstein's early intellectual development

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Influence_on_modern_thinkers

[action]

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 

But the problem isn't what you do to yourself, because I couldn't really care less about you, but the fact that you have said your family is also swept up in hysteria. And I find it hard to think this isn't partly your fault.

every decision in our household is made in mutual agreement. Our son is sick with fever and can not attend school anyway.

Quote

What we absolutely don't need, is hysterical people making bad decisions and spreading inane conspiracy theories, because that will result in more people being fearful, more people worrying when they shouldn't, and more people doing stupid things. And so far, this disease directly only affects a few people (a few hundreds in Europe have contracted the disease), yet indirectly, through fear and hysteria, it affects many, many, many more. It is like a disease upon the disease. A disease that is just in peoples' mind but can make them just as sick as a minor respiratory infection. And you are carrying this disease and seem to be hellbent on spreading it to others.

my decision to let my kid home from school, which I took last sunday evening, has been made by the italian government yesterday when they closed schools in the whole of italy. 300 million children stay at home from school now, and that is coming from a government which is as much concerned with economic growth as possible. Are they hysterical too? Am I hysterical because I took the same decision? Again: common sense is my guidance, not hysteria.

I have actually bet with my wife, when belgium is going to follow with closing schools. My bet was on tomorrow, but granted there are too few deaths in belgium (they pretend as if deaths in other countries are non existent) for that to go into practise. The coming days will be interesting, as when the first deaths in belgium come in, belgium will close schools too. Far too late of course, but not for me: that decision was made long ago, in our household.

Edited March 5, 2020 by action

[Dazey]

20 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I think I have said it before, but all philosophers can just go straight and fuck themselves. 

 Here! Here! Well said that man!   

10 minutes ago, action said:

every decision in our household is made in mutual agreement. Our son is sick with fever and can not attend school anyway.

my decision to let my kid home from school, which I took last sunday evening, has been made by the italian government yesterday when they closed schools in the whole of italy. 300 million children stay at home from school now, and that is coming from a government which is as much concerned with economic growth as possible.

300 million children and they're just Berlusconi's.  

[SoulMonster]

24 minutes ago, action said:

kant was a great influence on albert einstein's early intellectual development

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Influence_on_modern_thinkers

I really tried, but no, I really could not care less. 

[soon]

Philosophy and social theory are among the most scrumptious aspects of being alive. Lately rhetoric and tech philosophy calls my name 

[SoulMonster]

19 minutes ago, action said:

every decision in our household is made in mutual agreement. Our son is sick with fever and can not attend school anyway.

my decision to let my kid home from school, which I took last sunday evening, has been made by the italian government yesterday when they closed schools in the whole of italy. 300 million children stay at home from school now, and that is coming from a government which is as much concerned with economic growth as possible. Are they hysterical too? Am I hysterical because I took the same decision? Again: common sense is my guidance, not hysteria.

I have actually bet with my wife, when belgium is going to follow with closing schools. My bet was on tomorrow, but granted there are too few deaths in belgium (they pretend as if deaths in other countries are non existent) for that to go into practise. The coming days will be interesting, as when the first deaths in belgium come in, belgium will close schools too. Far too late of course, but not for me: that decision was made long ago, in our household.

You don't understand that the fact that there are many more infected in Italy than in Belgium, is the reason for these differences in policies? That in Italy it is not possible to isolate individual people any more so to slow down the spread they have decided to close schools whereas this is not the case, yet, in Belgium? Okay, I will try to explain this to you when I have more time. 

[ArthurMorgan]

15 minutes ago, soon said:

Philosophy and social theory are among the most scrumptious aspects of being alive. Lately rhetoric and tech philosophy calls my name 

Philosophy and science are like the two main building blocks of society. You remove one of them and it becomes unstable😄

[action]

28 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You don't understand that the fact that there are many more infected in Italy than in Belgium, is the reason for these differences in policies? That in Italy it is not possible to isolate individual people any more so to slow down the spread they have decided to close schools whereas this is not the case, yet, in Belgium? Okay, I will try to explain this to you when I have more time. 

last time I checked, in belgium it's the same virus as in italy.

as a scientist, you should view italy as the perfect setting to evaluate the possible consequences of this outbreak. your own charts provide an excellent scenario, almost like a glass ball, about what will happen in belgium.

the experience and knowledge you'd gain from the study of the italian situation, would provide you solid guidelines, on how to do better than italians.

Why make the same mistakes as the italians, who as the fact show, waited too long to close schools? Because, if it is necessary to close schools yesterday, then it was necessary to close them last monday. They just didnt know yet, but now they do. Belgium, knows too, but still refuses to act. They have actually said they want to wait until the first people die of covid19 in belgium before closing schools! this is actually worse than the italian government, who didnt know better. but belgium, now, does.

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, action said:

last time I checked, in belgium it's the same virus as in italy.

But the epidemics is at different stages in these countries with different numbers of infected rates calling for different responses. 

There is a threshold point where you go from too few infected to it making much sense to shut down schools, to where it might make sense to slow down the spread and relieve some of the pressure on the health care systems.

I suspect you didn't understand this, so I can write more about this later if you want. 

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, action said:

as a scientist, you should view italy as the perfect setting to evaluate the possible consequences of this outbreak. your own charts provide an excellent scenario, almost like a glass ball, about what will happen in belgium.

I am not trained as a virologist nor am I an active scientist. And the graphs (not charts) I have presented to you aren't mine. 

The rest of your post was nonsensical garble.