British Politics

[soon]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

So you - a strident anti (British) imperialist, who has blamed Britain for just about everything pertaining to European colonialism

Ive not Blamed Britain for all European colonization.

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

are actually saying that we should not have handed over Hong Kong in 1997? Is that what you're saying because I need some clarity here?

No, Im not saying that. Im speaking to

1- the reality of a "handover" as a clearly destabilizing act in itself. Plus colonization being destabilizing for reasons I can explain but trust I dont have too.

2- There were terms. These terms have no teeth because they were always bullshit. Like so many other examples (making this line of questioning goofy) such as TCI, where the exit was as bad as the entrance was. There was no responsibility taken to ensure the rights and prosperity of the people.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, soon said:

Ive not Blamed Britain for all European colonization.

No, Im not saying that. Im speaking to

1- the reality of a "handover" as a clearly destabilizing act in itself. Plus colonization being destabilizing for reasons I can explain but trust I dont have too.

2- There were terms. These terms have no teeth because they were always bullshit. Like so many other examples (making this line of questioning goofy) such as TCI, where the exit was as bad as the entrance was. There was no responsibility taken to ensure the rights and prosperity of the people.

What would've been your solution? Acquire teeth?

The Handover was a perfectly fine gentlemanly agreement which handed over Hong Kong to Chinese sovereignty whilst maintaining Hong Kong's representative-democratic and capitalistic culture. The mainland has impeded on the agreement which is the reason for the protests. 

[DieselDaisy]

 

Haha

One answer and one answer only is required,

Spoiler

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Padme]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Alliance of Anti-democrats.

Best joke ever 

 And Hugh Grant is now Britain's Axl Rose? Is that his account? Oh well... Get In The Ring  

[AtariLegend]

fyi, if you're looking for a simple explantion for the DUPs support of Brexit and a border:

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by AtariLegend

[Dazey]

Boris yesterday: “The decision to prorogue is to allow the government to bring forward its new legislative agenda and has nothing to do with Brexit.”

Boris today: “Now we’ve prorogued parliament the EU knows we really are serious about Brexit.”

I mean the man can’t even go 24 hours without lying out of his arse and contradicting himself.  

Edited August 29, 2019 by Dazey

[DieselDaisy]

4 hours ago, AtariLegend said:

fyi, if you're looking for a simple explantion for the DUPs support of Brexit and a border:

 

 

 

The DUP don't want a hard border though, they just don't want to be trapped in the single market. The DUP want to see a,

Quote

frictionless border with Irish Republic assisting those working or travelling in the other jurisdiction

- DUP 2017 manifesto, http://www.mydup.com/images/uploads/publications/DUP_Wminster_Manifesto_2017_v5.pdf

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, Dazey said:

Boris yesterday: “The decision to prorogue is to allow the government to bring forward its new legislative agenda and has nothing to do with Brexit.”

Boris today: “Now we’ve prorogued parliament the EU knows we really are serious about Brexit.”

I mean the man can’t even go 24 hours without lying out of his arse and contradicting himself.  

You're actually surprised Boris is a political flip-flopper? The same Boris - "I am not by any means an ultra-Eurosceptic. In some ways, I am a bit of a fan of the European Union'' - Johnson?

11 hours ago, Padme said:

Best joke ever 

 And Hugh Grant is now Britain's Axl Rose? Is that his account? Oh well... Get In The Ring  

It is curious because both Boris and Hugh Grant enact a similar persona of, the floppy-haired bumbling posh Englishman.

 

PS

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

12 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

What would've been your solution? Acquire teeth?

Again, I at no time suggested intervention. The bullshit deal was never intended to be enforced is my point. They colonize, they abandon, all wth the most laissez-faire attitude. 

Its like the trope wherein a guy looses his wife (the colonies) and then in anger also lashes out and looses his friend (the eu)

 

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, soon said:

Again, I at no time suggested intervention. The bullshit deal was never intended to be enforced is my point. They colonize, they abandon, all wth the most laissez-faire attitude. 

I don't think you are aware of the protracted and complicated negotiations that resulted in the handover. And how you can describe a deal as ''bullshit'' which transferred the sovereignty of 6 plus million Chinese to the PRC, whilst maintaining their representative-democratic culture and capitalist economy is beyond me. 

7 minutes ago, soon said:

Its like the trope wherein a guy looses his wife (the colonies) and then in anger also lashes out and looses his friend (the eu)

You'll have to explain this to me as it is nonsensical. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't think you are aware of the protracted and complicated negotiations that resulted in the handover. 

I think that you are aware that the deal made guarantees until 2047 that were never intended to be enforced and were bullshit. 

The reality of post-colonial upheaval isnt really something thats up for debate. 

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You'll have to explain this to me as it is nonsensical. 

Pretty standard trope, what can I help you with?

[DieselDaisy]

16 minutes ago, soon said:

I think that you are aware that the deal made guarantees until 2047 that were never intended to be enforced and were bullshit. 

The reality of post-colonial upheaval isnt really something thats up for debate. 

I think you need to read up on the subject personally before you make a further fool of yourself. This is all a bit embarrassing. 

I recommend, 

Flowerdew, John. The final years of British Hong Kong, and Lane, Kevin. Sovereignty and the status quo: the historical roots of China's Hong Kong policy

16 minutes ago, soon said:

Pretty standard trope, what can I help you with?

Are you trying to make some causal relationship between the handover, and Brexit, as even your chronology is crocked?

And Brexit does not aim to sever the United Kingdom's friendship - you use the word ''friend'' to describe the EU - with the EU or the 27 member states, but aims to sever the United Kingdom's membership with the intergovernmental/supranational European Union - and even then, only the most ardent of hard-Brexiteers would not wish to establish a ''future relations agreement''. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[Padme]

54 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You're actually surprised Boris is a political flip-flopper? The same Boris - "I am not by any means an ultra-Eurosceptic. In some ways, I am a bit of a fan of the European Union'' - Johnson?

It is curious because both Boris and Hugh Grant enact a similar persona of, the floppy-haired bumbling posh Englishman.

 

PS

 

Boris and Hugh Grant are two stupid idiots, a disgrace for England. Whatever happened to Michael Redgrave. At least Hugh Grant makes me laugh with his Axl style rant in twitter. Boris on the other hand makes me cry.

I don't see any problem with a picnic. It's a peaceful and civilized protest. It's the way it should be. The last thing I want to see is the violence we've seen in Paris with those yellow jacket assholes.

England 5 France 0

[soon]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I think you need to read up on the subject personally before you make a further fool of yourself. This is all a bit embarrassing. 

No, Im not uneducated on the subject. And this post is mildly edgy and out of line in friendly debate. Which is embarrassing.

I guess my truth has struck a nerve. Didnt figure youd be proud of the colonial aspect of your traditions and customs. I stand corrected on that fact.

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Are you trying to make some causal relationship between the handover, and Brexit, as even your chronology is crocked?

I literally referenced Britains colonial legacy as trying to take over "half the world" but you are obsessed with limiting discussion to Honk Kong. Im sure you have your reasons, yet you are still not proving any points about Honk Kong and have therefore resorted to name calling.

Im again, making the same point as yesterday that you all used to want to be in everyones business and now you want everyone out of your business. The fact that you cant even acknowledge that irony is really something. Cake and eat it too, all that. 

Arent you lot in the lead over there? Why so grumpy and unyielding in attack mode towards all comers?? Must be exhausting 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

 

 

Only in London 

Glad I went there last week to all of the tourists spots and missed this lot blocking all of the roads.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Padme said:

Boris and Hugh Grant are two stupid idiots, a disgrace for England. Whatever happened to Michael Redgrave. At least Hugh Grant makes me laugh with his Axl style rant in twitter. Boris on the other hand makes me cry.

I don't see any problem with a picnic. It's a peaceful and civilized protest. It's the way it should be. The last thing I want to see is the violence we've seen in Paris with those yellow jacket assholes.

England 5 France 0

Remainers are trying to depict Brexit as a ''working class delusion'' whilst the middle class people protesting here against the repudiation of ''democracy'' have clearly been shopping at Waitrose! 

It is not I who should be trying to convince here. The onus is on remainers to demonstrate the EU is not what its critics (such as myself) claim: that it is not white, elitist and middle class, that it is not (in an English sense) London-centric and espoused by people who call their children ''Tarquin'' and ''Beatrice''.

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, soon said:

No, Im not uneducated on the subject. And this post is mildly edgy and out of line in friendly debate. Which is embarrassing.

I guess my truth has struck a nerve. Didnt figure youd be proud of the colonial aspect of your traditions and customs. I stand corrected on that fact.

I edited my post to include further reading on the subject. 

6 minutes ago, soon said:

I literally referenced Britains colonial legacy as trying to take over "half the world" but you are obsessed with limiting discussion to Honk Kong. Im sure you have your reasons, yet you are still not proving any points about Honk Kong and have therefore resorted to name calling.

Im again, making the same point as yesterday that you all used to want to be in everyones business and now you want everyone out of your business. The fact that you cant even acknowledge that irony is really something. Cake and eat it too, all that. 

Arent you lot in the lead over there? Why so grumpy and unyielding in attack mode towards all comers?? Must be exhausting 

But this is blatantly untrue!

Also, the British Empire only encompassed 24% of the world's landmass - you may as well get this stuff right?

[Padme]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Remainers are trying to depict Brexit as a ''working class delusion'' whilst the middle class people protesting here against the repudiation of ''democracy'' have clearly been shopping at Waitrose! 

It is not I who should be trying to convince here. The onus is on remainers to demonstrate the EU is not what its critics (such as myself) claim: that it is not white, elitist and middle class, that it is not (in an English sense) London-centric and espoused by people who call their children ''Tarquin'' and ''Beatrice''.

@Dazey, @SoulMonster, myself and others have explained to you many times that the EU is not what you think it is. You don't listen. So I don't bother anymore. You can believe whatever you want to believe

[soon]

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Also, the British Empire only encompassed 24% of the world's landmass - you may as well get this stuff right?

You might as we try and get this stuff right I said:

19 minutes ago, soon said:

I literally referenced Britains colonial legacy as trying to take over "half the world"

[DieselDaisy]

16 minutes ago, Padme said:

@Dazey, @SoulMonster, myself and others have explained to you many times that the EU is not what you think it is. You don't listen. So I don't bother anymore. You can believe whatever you want to believe

I have never heard any of you speak about the European Union!! It is only me who has actually analysed in detail its constitution, ideology, history and major progenitors. From the Schumann Declaration, Maastricht, to today I have looked at it in depth, but have not seen similar levels of interest.

Dazey, a materialist, is obsessed with tariffs and the economic aspect, and, by his own admission, doesn't care about anything else. He doesn't care about ''where it comes from?'', ''what its ideology is?'', ''how it is appointed?'' so long as it delivers more money to him than it would if we were not a member. Soul, who isn't a member of the EU, doesn't seem very interested either, but is more interested in deriding Britain's working classes for being ''misinformed'' when they voted in 2016; although, in fairness, I have seen Soul indulge in Verhofstadt-esque platitudes (e.g., ''cooperation'', ''peace'', etc) which demonstrates he is at least versed in EU rhetoric. 

I have been wanting a good conversation about the European Union for some time, but none has been forthcoming! I pointed out that the Parliament has no legislative initiative but nobody seemed especially interested, that the Commission is unelected - more recently, that the spitzenkandidaten system has been repudiated - but nope...

I suspect I am the only one here who has actually looked at the EU in depth. There is an irony there of sorts.

9 minutes ago, soon said:

You might as we try and get this stuff right I said:

Even trying is thoroughly incorrect with an understand of the history of its acquisition. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Even trying is thoroughly incorrect with an understand of the history of its acquisition. 

Im writing posts on a rock forum where figures of speech and chatter for effect should be expected. I am not writing in a British Colonial History quarterly. Silly tactic.

You are all over the place trying to see what sticks! 

Any criticism of the 'good old ways':

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Im writing posts on a rock forum where figures of speech and chatter for effect should be expected. I am not writing in a British Colonial History quarterly. Silly tactic.

You are all over the place trying to see what sticks! 

Any criticism of the 'good old ways':

Much of the empire was acquired through - to use the American expression - ''filibustering'', handing the British government a fait accompli conquest which they then sanctioned, not always without protest from the Opposition. ''Proconsuls'' like Robert Clive, Cecil Rhodes, and even the settlement colonies (thirteen colonies, in New Zealand) which broke their boundaries and repudiated treaties between Britain and the indigenous denizens, colonised with next-to-no assistance from the mother country. There were of course exceptions such as chunks of land acquired by Great Britain as a consequence of war. Canada is a good example actually, as is Cape Colony (taken from the Dutch during the Napoleonic Wars); these were usually acquired for strategic interest: Cape Colony secured maritime links with the Pacific around the Cape of Good Hope. 

The very earliest ''English'' Empire, the minuscule Elizabethan Empire, was built on little more than piracy/free-booting and colonies of what the state perceived as non-conformists, i.e., religious riff-raff.

There was little centripetal plan for any of this.

 

 

[EvanG]

17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I suspect I am the only one here who has actually looked at the EU in depth. There is an irony there of sorts.

I'm sure you know more about the EU in depth than most people here, but it's really about where your priorities lie, isn't it? There are pros and cons and everyone knows that. You only concentrate on the cons. When I asked you the other day to name one good thing about the EU, you refused to answer. (or if I'm not mistaken you came up with some medical card, after asking you three times). There are countries in Europe that have flourished and benefitted a great deal since joining the EU, but I have never heard you talk about that, probably because you don't live there. I am not turning a blind eye to this, just like I'm not turning a blind eye to the fact that the EU isn't perfect and still has a long way to go. A lot of people don't think running away from it is the solution, you obviously do, so godspeed.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Remainers are trying to depict Brexit as a ''working class delusion'' whilst the middle class people protesting here against the repudiation of ''democracy'' have clearly been shopping at Waitrose! 

It is not I who should be trying to convince here. The onus is on remainers to demonstrate the EU is not what its critics (such as myself) claim: that it is not white, elitist and middle class, that it is not (in an English sense) London-centric and espoused by people who call their children ''Tarquin'' and ''Beatrice''.

Again with the classes And elitist because it is ruled by people who, well, are better than you. Boo-hoo. You just can't cast this image of being an insecure, rural yokel trying to dress up your skepticism of the EU as being ideology-driven while in reality it is you just feeling down-trodden and lashing out against the "elite" whether that is the middle class, or Londoners, people naming their kids "Tarquin", or owning dishwashers, or coming to take your jobs, or passing laws that add the final nail in your dying fisheries' coffin, or having more money to spend on decent coffee than you, or basically act like they are better than you. There is no difference between you and all these angry men across the world who are against the "elite" and feel disgruntled at the time. You just make more of an effort to fake being someone else. But you are just like the other people who can't accept responsibility for their own situation. People who stick by in industrial wastelands because they don't have the initiate to seek greener pastures. People who grow increasingly bitter about their lot in life and just need an outlet. Just an insecure little man with complexes. Dressing up your little Englander mentality in sophisticated prose, dressing up your true motives in cries about the EU not being democratic enough (while applauding Boris the Bozo's antics). Occasionally trying to convince us there is more depth to your hostility by passing a flawed, nonsensical economic argument that is quickly shot down. Affecting a lifestyle with crickets and vernicular reminiscent of colonial times and hostility to cultural dilutions, a period you yearn for, when Brits ruled the world, when Britain was Great. But you aren't. Both you and Britain are just mediocre. And stuck in the past. And now you take a huge step in the wrong direction. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, EvanG said:

I'm sure you know more about the EU in depth than most people here, but it's really about where your priorities lie, isn't it? There are pros and cons and everyone knows that. You only concentrate on the cons. When I asked you the other day to name one good thing about the EU, you refused to answer. (or if I'm not mistaken you came up with some medical card, after asking you three times). There are countries in Europe that have flourished and benefitted a great deal since joining the EU, but I have never heard you talk about that, probably because you don't live there. I am not turning a blind eye to this, just like I'm not turning a blind eye to the fact that the EU isn't perfect and still has a long way to go. A lot of people don't think running away from it is the solution, you obviously do, so godspeed.

I am unapologetic about focusing on the countries which have not ''flourished and benefited'' such as the Greeks and Italians. If the EU functioned in accordance with its abstract ideology - ''solidarity, cooperation, togetherness'' - these countries would be benefiting also, not sunk in debt and unemployment.