British Politics

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Padme said:

But this deal doesn't honour the Referendum for neither side. When you say the UK must leave. This deal is not really a Leave. Norway kind of deal is half way Leave and Remain

And people voted back in the 70s over membership in the EEC.

Well that is true and that is why it'll probably be chucked out of the Commons but if you are going to frame a second referendum, and that is certainly not something I desire in the slightest but for case of argument, you cannot have a ''remain'' option otherwise you open up a dangerous precedent for plebiscitary anarchy (try and try again till the masses vote the way a party want them to, and watch the opposition repeat the experiment). 

If a referendum is worth the beer mat it has been written on, something of its outcome has to stand.

[Padme]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well that is true and that is why it'll probably be chucked out of the Commons but if you are going to frame a second referendum, and that is certainly not something I desire in the slightest but for case of argument, you cannot have a ''remain'' option otherwise you open up a dangerous precedent for plebiscitary anarchy (try and try again till the masses vote the way a party want them to, and watch the opposition repeat the experiment). 

If a referendum is worth the beer mat it has been written on, something of its outcome has to stand.

 If more than half of the country is so desperate to leave. They will vote Leave again no matter what. However if they changed their minds because either they don't like this new deal. Or because they figured out the 300 millions for healtcare was a lie. Well they might just want to stick with the EU.

There is only one way to know how people feel. I remember even Farage has said he was open to  a second referendum

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Padme said:

 If more than half of the country is so desperate to leave. They will vote Leave again no matter what. However if they changed their minds because either they don't like this new deal. Or because they figured out the 300 millions for healtcare was a lie. Well they might just want to stick with the EU.

There is only one way to know how people feel. I remember even Farage has said he was open to  a second referendum

It is dangerous precedent: ''here you voted in referendum A but we are just going to ignore it and have referendum B''. As I said, where do you draw the line? Run the thing a third, a fourth, a fifth time? The MPs should be legislating, not the people - we are not ancient Athenians! 

It is also a colossal waste of (tax-payers') money.

[Padme]

17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is dangerous precedent: ''here you voted in referendum A but we are just going to ignore it and have referendum B''. As I said, where do you draw the line? Run the thing a third, a fourth, a fifth time? The MPs should be legislating, not the people - we are not ancient Athenians! 

It is also a colossal waste of (tax-payers') money.

March 2019 is the deadline. Well I draw the line there. There could evetually be a referendum before March. Anyway before any referendum we have to wait for Parliament to vote on this deal.

[Dazey]

18 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

This draft is a dog's dinner, an invitation for being rogered up the arse by the EU. I hope the Tory rebels, DUP and Labour hard-left chuck the thing out.

As opposed to the invitation to be rogered up the arse by the rest of the world on weaker terms that is Brexit in a nutshell?

[DieselDaisy]

17 minutes ago, Dazey said:

As opposed to the invitation to be rogered up the arse by the rest of the world on weaker terms that is Brexit in a nutshell?

The rest of the non-EU world somehow cope with the stigma of having full possession of one's sovereignty including trade policy. The United Kingdom herself, united since 1707, somehow managed this herculean task, of possessing one's sovereignty, until the relatively late date of 1973. However did we manage? 

[wasted]

I thought the whole idea was that we already getting a raw deal so might as well get to decide the diameter of our toilet seats without having to instagram Brussels. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by wasted

[Padme]

11 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The rest of the non-EU world somehow cope with the stigma of having full possession of one's sovereignty including trade policy. The United Kingdom herself, united since 1707, somehow managed this herculean task, of possessing one's sovereignty, until the relatively late date of 1973. However did we manage? 

The world was very different back in 1707. The UK had several colonies everywhere. Even the U.S. was still a colony. Looking at the U.S. right now. I'm begining to think it would be a good idea for the UK to take back control over of those 50 States. The UK controled not only territory but also the waters. Later during the industrial revolution it got bigger and better.

Then in 1973 the U.K. wanted to be part of the old EEC. Later with EU took shape. The UK didn't seem to have too much of a problem with it.

[DieselDaisy]

15 minutes ago, Padme said:

The world was very different back in 1707. The UK had several colonies everywhere. Even the U.S. was still a colony. Looking at the U.S. right now. I'm begining to think it would be a good idea for the UK to take back control over of those 50 States. The UK controled not only territory but also the waters. Later during the industrial revolution it got bigger and better.

Then in 1973 the U.K. wanted to be part of the old EEC. Later with EU took shape. The UK didn't seem to have too much of a problem with it.

I do not see how that is pertinent. The majority of sovereign nations today, including 19 European countries which are not members of the EU, neither possess colonies, nor require/desire colonies in order to sustain the prosperity of the metropolitan core, and, anyhow, Great Britain had long since began the retreat from empire (1947, Indian Independence, is as good a date as any to cite) before joining the EEC in 1973 so the chronologies do not even correspond! 

[Dazey]

12 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The rest of the non-EU world somehow cope with the stigma of having full possession of one's sovereignty including trade policy. The United Kingdom herself, united since 1707, somehow managed this herculean task, of possessing one's sovereignty, until the relatively late date of 1973. However did we manage? 

Why have you got such a hard on for sovereignty at any cost? There's no value in being able to make our own trade deals if everybody we're making them with knows we're desperate because we just told our main trading partner (who just so happen to be the largest trading block in the world) to fuck off so we can pursue opportunities with fucking New Zealand! (no offence @Oldest Goat I love you). Do you really think that all the other countries are just going to be falling over themselves to give us these amazing trade deals? Do you think that Trump et al are going to be sucking us off because we're just dear old Blighty and they must respect the old empire or do you think they're going to bend us over at the first opportunity? We're not an empire nor a superpower anymore. We're better served as part of the EU than we ever will be extricated from it. The cod wars are over, Jimmy Savile Thatcher fucked the minors miners 30 years ago and who gives a fuck about 1973 in the context of 2018? You're tanking absolute bollocks for the sake of bragging rights just to say a big fuck you to Johnny Foreigner! 

 

 

 

*I've just got home from my 13th night shift in 13 days and I've been drinking.  

[wasted]

There’s more to life than a little bit of money. 

[Dazey]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not see how that is pertinent. The majority of sovereign nations today, including 19 European countries which are not members of the EU,

None of which are leaving the EU after being a long term member either which is a major distinction. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Dazey

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Dazey said:

Why have you got such a hard on for sovereignty at any cost? There's no value in being able to make our own trade deals if everybody we're making them with knows we're desperate because we just told our main trading partner (who just so happen to be the largest trading block in the world) to fuck off so we can pursue opportunities with fucking New Zealand! (no offence @Oldest Goat I love you). Do you really think that all the other countries are just going to be falling over themselves to give us these amazing trade deals? Do you think that Trump et al are going to be sucking us off because we're just dear old Blighty and they must respect the old empire or do you think they're going to bend us over at the first opportunity? We're not an empire nor a superpower anymore. We're better served as part of the EU than we ever will be extricated from it. The cod wars are over, Jimmy Savile Thatcher fucked the minors miners 30 years ago and who gives a fuck about 1973 in the context of 2018? You're tanking absolute bollocks for the sake of bragging rights just to say a big fuck you to Johnny Foreigner! 

 

 

 

*I've just got home from my 13th night shift in 13 days and I've been drinking.  

Sovereignty entails more (legislative, jurisprudential) than mere trade deals, and I do not possess such a low opinion on foreign desirability of our exports, many of which, especially in fashion and retail, are highly recognised global brands which will still be coveted post-Brexit. Trade deals being compared with supraintnationalism is such a poor analogy I do not know where to begin, and no, I do not desire to say ''a big fuck you to Johnny Foreigner'' - in fact the reverse! I want Europe, the Italians and Greeks front of the queue, to remove the shackles of the European Union which has dealt with them so appallingly. The imperial stuff? See above; irrelevant. 

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Sovereignty entails more (legislative, jurisprudential) than mere trade deals, and I do not possess such a low opinion on foreign desirability of our exports, many of which, especially in fashion and retail, are highly recognised global brands which will still be coveted post-Brexit. Trade deals being compared with supraintnationalism is such a poor analogy I do not know where to begin, and no, I do not desire to say ''a big fuck you to Johnny Foreigner'' - in fact the reverse! I want Europe, the Italians and Greeks front of the queue, to remove the shackles of the European Union which has dealt with them so appallingly. The imperial stuff? See above; irrelevant. 

The Italians and the Greeks should have paid their fucking taxes and they wouldn't be in the state they're in. 

I need to go to bed now. If Idon't get to sleep I can't wait up later and regret this rant.  

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Dazey said:

No of which are leaving the EU after being a long term member either which is a major distinction. 

I do not see why that matters, and we aren't really a long-term member. We were not a founding member in 1957, and De Gaulle vetoed our attempts to join twice, in 1963 and 1967, out of reasons most historians attribute to anglophobia.  

[wasted]

Let’s be realistic. 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The Italians and the Greeks should have paid their fucking taxes and they wouldn't be in the state they're in. 

I need to go to bed now. If Idon't get to sleep I can't wait up later and regret this rant.  

There you see the problems caused by the dislocation of sovereignty and the conflation of national interests with a larger body. Germany hammers the Greeks within an ''alleged'' free trade common market, a common market with some claim to (anti-exclusive) supranationalism and fraternal cooperative solidarity, despite (drum role) bankrolling her own eastern Länder for decades, since 1990 and reunification! 

 

[Len Cnut]

38 minutes ago, wasted said:

There’s more to life than a little bit of money. 

Yeah but you need money for the bus fare to it

[Padme]

24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not see how that is pertinent. The majority of sovereign nations today, including 19 European countries which are not members of the EU, neither possess colonies, nor require/desire colonies in order to sustain the prosperity of the metropolitan core, and, anyhow, Great Britain had long since began the retreat from empire (1947, Indian Independence, is as good a date as any to cite) before joining the EEC in 1973 so the chronologies do not even correspond! 

 You mentioned 1707. Why you brought that up? Places like Norway or Switzerland are not members but they do have trade agreement with the EU. Then places like Monaco or Andorra are not members either. But they are tax havens. And the UK plan is to negotiate a trade agreement with the EU during the transition year.  India, New Zealand, Singapore or South Africa are not the UK priority, at least not for this current government. Theresa May wants to follow Norway's model. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Padme said:

 You mentioned 1707. Why you brought that up? Places like Norway or Switzerland are not members but they do have trade agreement with the EU. Then places like Monaco or Andorra are not members either. But they are tax havens. And the UK plan is to negotiate a trade agreement with the EU during the transition year.  India, New Zealand, Singapore or South Africa are not the UK priority, at least not for this current government. Theresa May wants to follow Norway's model. 

Creation of the United Kingdom.

I'm not saying that we'll repudiate trade with Europe, employing a form of Sakoku haha. 

[wasted]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Yeah but you need money for the bus fare to it

Not necessarily, you might just want to wave an England flag at home and kiss a picture of the Queen every morning. And not have Fabio Cappello play 4-4-2. The idea that everyone in the UK are Gordon Gecko is funny. You are also not sophisticated, You Philip Schofield, you basically...what is the difference between libel and slander again?

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, wasted said:

.what is the difference between libel and slander again?

Couple of hundred grand in compo

[wasted]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Couple of hundred grand in compo

I pretty good I pulled out, I don’t have PS money. Going up sgainst a former Blue Peter presenter isn’t really going to go well for a marginally world famous top tier poster on mygnr is it. Look at his hair, it cost more than I made in the last decade at least. Luxurious. 

[Axl's Agony Aunt]

On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:21 PM, wasted said:

 When I get back to the future I’ll tell them we messed it up. 

You're wasted here! 

[wasted]

1 minute ago, Axl's Agony Aunt said:

You're wasted here! 

Because building a dream from your memory is the easiest way to lose your grasp on what's real and what is a dream.