The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Rovim]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

When something hasn't been proven, and has no supportive evidence, then it is likely not to exist. And when that "something" is a supernatural entity, then it is even less likely to be real. And I can't for the loive of me understand why anyone would think it makes sense to believe in something that is that implausible. I suppose it comes from desire and hope?

Science works slowly yes, but it is still the best method we have. I mean, as far as knowledge-generating methods go, nothing beats science's CV. What other methods are there, really? Religious revelation? Divination? Gut feeling? Yeah, like any of those came up with the theory of relativity, the laws of thermodynamics, the synthetic theory of evolution, and resulted in just about every technological advance we have had, including the ability to fly, land on the moon, build computers, etc.

let me ask this Soul: do you believe there's a chance Aliens exist? and perhaps it's more reasonable to think they do exist cause there are too many fuckin' galaxies for them not to exist? this is supported by many respected scientists mind you. I hope you reply with an open mind cause you're so closed up in your little box of science.

[DieselDaisy]

Science has done bugger all of interest since the moon landings really. No Martians. No time travel. No hoverboards. 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

let me ask this Soul: do you believe there's a chance Aliens exist? and perhaps it's more reasonable to think they do exist cause there are too many fuckin' galaxies for them not to exist? this is supported by many respected scientists mind you. I hope you reply with an open mind cause you're so closed up in your little box of science.

Yes, of course there is a possibility extraterrestrials exist. In fact, it is rather likely. My father told me about Drake's equation when I was a little kid, and I still remember how fascinating it was to calculate the probability of alien existence.

[Len Cnut]

18 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Science has done bugger all of interest since the moon landings really. No Martians. No time travel. No hoverboards. 

They should've at least got a fuckin' DeLorean goin' by now eh? The religion v science debate at this point is so boring, its literally not worth having, you can't argue against faith so whats the point?  All the logic and evidence in the world doesn't stand a chance against faith. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Science has done bugger all of interest since the moon landings really. No Martians. No time travel. No hoverboards. 

It takes some time from a scientific discover happens until it results in innovations that affect our lives directly. That being said, the advances in healthcare due to the human genome project and increased understanding of biological mechanisms behind diseases combined with development of new techniques like PCR, CRIPR, cloning, stem cell therapy and gene therapy, which have all happened in the last 20-30 years, is quite outstanding and has resulted in much better prognoses for a multitude of diseases (including many cancer forms) in addition to eradicating certain diseases.

In astrophysics, for a layman like me, the most fascinating is the discovery of exoplanets that could host life as we know it. But this is more of inspirational nature than resulting in many practical applications.

Then I suppose the development of modern phones, screen and computers rely on scientific progress although this is far beyond my field.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

It takes some time from a scientific discover happens until it results in innovations that affect our lives directly. That being said, the advances in healthcare due to the human genome project and increased understanding of biological mechanisms behind diseases combined with development of new techniques like PCR, CRIPR, cloning, stem cell therapy and gene therapy, which have all happened in the last 20-30 years, is quite outstanding and has resulted in much better prognoses for a multitude of diseases (including many cancer forms) in addition to eradicating certain diseases.

In astrophysics, for a layman like me, the most fascinating is the discovery of exoplanets that could host life as we know it. But this is more of inspirational nature than resulting in many practical applications.

Then I suppose the development of modern phones, screen and computers rely on scientific progress although this is far beyond my field.

BOO-RING.

Where are the martians?

Give me a martian and I'll become a student of science tomorrow. 

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

They should've at least got a fuckin' DeLorean goin' by now eh? The religion v science debate at this point is so boring, its literally not worth having, you can't argue against faith so whats the point?  All the logic and evidence in the world doesn't stand a chance against faith. 

I like to think logic and evidence (or lack thereof) is one of the explanations for why we have a growing secularization in many parts of the world. Religion has been hiding in the dark, but we keep on illuminating. Sure, in discussions like this it never happens that people go, "shit, you are right, there is no evidence for god so now I am an atheist!", but seeds are sown. You just have to have patience. They deserve it, you deserve it, humanity deserves it.

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

BOO-RING.

Where are the martians?

Give me a martian and I'll become a student of science tomorrow. 

Why would the existence of a Martian even have anything to do with scientific achievements?  

[Len Cnut]

Quote

I like to think logic and evidence (or lack thereof) is one of the explanations for why we have a growing secularization in many parts of the world. Religion has been hiding in the dark, but we keep on illuminating. Sure, in discussions like this it never happens that people go, "shit, you are right, there is no evidence for god so now I am an atheist!", but seeds are sown. You just have to have patience. They deserve it, you deserve it, humanity deserves it.

I think you underestimate the power of faith.  Its a lot stronger than logic.  People will fight for faith, kill for faith, die for faith. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

38 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I think you underestimate the power of faith.  Its a lot stronger than logic.  People will fight for faith, kill for faith, die for faith. 

It is stronger at leading people to do idiotic things yes, but that doesn't mean that religious people are entirely immune to logic and rationality. Case in point the growing secularization. They might seem immune in discussions like this but that comes down to so many other things. The reason for why religion make people do moronic things is of course that religion demands this from followers, whereas science and rationality isn't a world-view with dogmas and rules, just an approach to understanding the world around us.

[OmarBradley]

7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Science has done bugger all of interest since the moon landings really. No Martians. No time travel. No hoverboards. 

 

7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

BOO-RING.

Where are the martians?

Give me a martian and I'll become a student of science tomorrow. 

 

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

It takes some time from a scientific discover happens until it results in innovations that affect our lives directly. That being said, the advances in healthcare due to the human genome project and increased understanding of biological mechanisms behind diseases combined with development of new techniques like PCR, CRIPR, cloning, stem cell therapy and gene therapy, which have all happened in the last 20-30 years, is quite outstanding and has resulted in much better prognoses for a multitude of diseases (including many cancer forms) in addition to eradicating certain diseases.

In astrophysics, for a layman like me, the most fascinating is the discovery of exoplanets that could host life as we know it. But this is more of inspirational nature than resulting in many practical applications.

Then I suppose the development of modern phones, screen and computers rely on scientific progress although this is far beyond my field.

He's doing the 'rhetorical' thing again, it seems. I almost made the mistake of typing up a genuine reply to his "science has done bugger all" post, but then I remembered the last time I genuinely responded to a similar claim. I think this is his form of trolling. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, OmarBradley said:

 

 

He's doing the 'rhetorical' thing again, it seems. I almost made the mistake of typing up a genuine reply to his "science has done bugger all" post, but then I remembered the last time I genuinely responded to a similar claim. I think this is his form of trolling. 

It is. He believes I am a scientist so in his futile attempts to rile me up he is willing to embarrass himself by saying stupid things about science. 

[Dazey]

28 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

He believes I am a scientist

That was his first mistake. 😂

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, OmarBradley said:

 

 

He's doing the 'rhetorical' thing again, it seems. I almost made the mistake of typing up a genuine reply to his "science has done bugger all" post, but then I remembered the last time I genuinely responded to a similar claim. I think this is his form of trolling. 

I think it was fairly evident I was being facetious!

[spunko12345]

On 22/03/2019 at 11:05 AM, DieselDaisy said:

Science has done bugger all of interest since the moon landings really. No Martians. No time travel. No hoverboards. 

Ahem. Dolly the sheep.

[spunko12345]

On 22/03/2019 at 12:10 PM, SoulMonster said:

It is stronger at leading people to do idiotic things yes, but that doesn't mean that religious people are entirely immune to logic and rationality. Case in point the growing secularization. They might seem immune in discussions like this but that comes down to so many other things. The reason for why religion make people do moronic things is of course that religion demands this from followers, whereas science and rationality isn't a world-view with dogmas and rules, just an approach to understanding the world around us.

Have we evolved in the last few thousand years where we need faith/religion though? Whether it's real (and i happen to believe its not) or not you can't argue that it has played a significant role in how humanity has structured itself, and let's be honest humans have fucking thrived in the last 5k years. Look at everything we've done and created as we've evolved. 

I suppose the argument to that would be that other animals don't seem make decisions based on faith, its odds and probability about whether they can outrun that predator or get that food. But then again they're shitting on the floor and sleeping outside so whose the fucking winner really? That's right humans (except me who shits on the floor and sleeps outside every time my missus gets the hump with me 😁)

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by spunko12345

[Dazey]

58 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

Ahem. Dolly the sheep.

It's all about the fucking sheep with you isn't it?  

[SoulMonster]

15 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

Have we evolved in the last few thousand years where we need faith/religion though? Whether it's real (and i happen to believe its not) or not you can't argue that it has played a significant role in how humanity has structured itself, and let's be honest humans have fucking thrived in the last 5k years. Look at everything we've done and created as we've evolved. 

I suppose the argument to that would be that other animals don't seem make decisions based on faith, its odds and probability about whether they can outrun that predator or get that food. But then again they're shitting on the floor and sleeping outside so whose the fucking winner really? That's right humans (except me who shits on the floor and sleeps outside every time my missus gets the hump with me 😁)

We've had religion for probably as long as we have existed, and there are some evidence suggesting our closed evolutionary relatives (the great apes) can have experiences bordering to the spiritual, too. But yes, organized religion developed in parallel to how we organized ourselves in societies. 

So yes, religion has been there right by us as we have thrived for the last 5k. I would argue that it us now more of an impediment than anything, and that we certainly don't need it. Although some wluld say it did play a role in helping to organize us in societies.

[Dazey]

4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Evidence apes may have religious experiences?

Does being bummed by a man in a dress count as a religious experience?  

[Sosso]

The Five Pillars of Islam

The most important Muslim practices are the Five Pillars of Islam.

The Five Pillars of Islam are the five obligations that every Muslim must satisfy in order to live a good and responsible life according to Islam.

The Five Pillars consist of:

Shahadah: sincerely reciting the Muslim profession of faith

Salat: performing ritual prayers in the proper way five times each day

Zakat: paying an alms (or charity) tax to benefit the poor and the needy

Sawm: fasting during the month of Ramadan

Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca

Why are they important?

Carrying out these obligations provides the framework of a Muslim's life, and weaves their everyday activities and their beliefs into a single cloth of religious devotion.

No matter how sincerely a person may believe, Islam regards it as pointless to live life without putting that faith into action and practice.

Carrying out the Five Pillars demonstrates that the Muslim is putting their faith first, and not just trying to fit it in around their secular lives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/practices/fivepillars.shtml

[SoulMonster]

8 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Evidence apes may have religious experiences?

I think I said spiritual. Anyway, I saw a program once where they discussed why one chimpanzee group tended to take trips to a, I think it was, a waterfall, for no obvious reason, and where they sort of participated in what looked like rudimentary ritualistic behavior. Obviously I can't remember this very well so I did a quick google: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/chimpanzee-spirituality/475731/

I haven't even read the article but it might be of interest.

[SoulMonster]

9 hours ago, Dazey said:

Does being bummed by a man in a dress count as a religious experience?  

It does if you are bummed by a man in a cassock.

[Len Cnut]

On 23/03/2019 at 8:35 PM, spunko12345 said:

Have we evolved in the last few thousand years where we need faith/religion though? Whether it's real (and i happen to believe its not) or not you can't argue that it has played a significant role in how humanity has structured itself, and let's be honest humans have fucking thrived in the last 5k years. Look at everything we've done and created as we've evolved. 

I suppose the argument to that would be that other animals don't seem make decisions based on faith, its odds and probability about whether they can outrun that predator or get that food. But then again they're shitting on the floor and sleeping outside so whose the fucking winner really? That's right humans (except me who shits on the floor and sleeps outside every time my missus gets the hump with me 😁)

 

The way I see it is that everybody has something.  In a fuckin' Dr Joseph Mengele sense you can take anybody, as a human experiment, and seperate something from their lives after which life will become untenable.  It could be some passion or something, like a football player who can't handle life anymore after the loss of his legs, it could be a loved one, like guys who lose a family member and commit suicide.  For others that thing is religion/God.  Thats fair enough to me.  I realise that this opinion has the potential to come across as very arrogant in relation to people of faith and their beliefs, its just one idea I suppose.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Len Cnut

[HOOSIER GUNZ]

some interesting stuff

[SoulMonster]

"religious" is a label that is put on anything we can't understand, as if to mask our fundamental lack of intellectual capabilities to understand the universe.

scientific progress is limited by the capabilities of our instruments to catch light. Science has actually put forth a theory that "what can not be seen, is scientifically irrelevant and is the realm of religion"

We can't prove how the big bang started? No problem. Religious people try to explain it, and we as scientists are smarter by default.

We can't explain how the cathedrals of france form a pattern that's the star sign of virgo, and this knowledge dates from long after the cathedrals were build? No problem. Cathedrals are religious. Religious people are irrational.

we can't explain near dead experiences? No problem. it probably has something to do with chemical unbalance in the head just before you die. religion doesn't provide the right answer because.... religion

the ignorant people of the middle ages already understood that you have to try to link religion to rationality. Both elevate each other and provide answers the other can't give. see thomas of aquino who wanted to prove the existence of god by using aristotle

No, scientific progress does not depend upon visual observation. The recording of electromagnetic waves (including the visible light) is just part of the scientific experimental repertoire; we can prod the universe in many other ways. The correct phrasing is that "what does not affect the material world, is beyond scientific scrutiny." If any aspect of a religion affects the material world in any way, then that religion does encroach on the realm of science and can be investigated by scientific methods. An example is the alleged religious affect of prayer. Any aspect that does not affect the material way in any detectable fashion, can not be studied by science. That is the division: between what affects the world in any significant way and what doesn't. Not between what can be observed and what can't.

The singularity of the big band is a moment when the laws of nature isn't relevant any more. It collapses. Thus we cannot really make any scientific hypotheses of what came "before" (and since time likely started with the big bang, nothing could possible have come "before"). Any ideas about what started big band thus find themselves in the realm of pure fiction. It is beyond the realm of science at this point. And sure, religion can come up with ideas about what was "before" or what caused the big bang to happen, but that is entirely unfalsifiable hypotheses and without any substantial evidence whatsoever. The fact that religion has zero qualms about presenting explanations for things we can't possible know anything, while science can't, isn't to religion's credit. It just means that religion is better at fiction whereas science is better at reality.

I had never heard that the cathedrals of France plot out the constellation of Virgo  Without looking into this, I am sure you choose many religious buildings in isolated regions and make their patterns resemble some arbitrary thing, like in this case the man-made concept of star signs. Doesn't really mean anything. It would be surprising if no man-made structures had some fleeting resemble to constellations.

We don't reject religious explanations because they are religious, we reject religious explanations because they rely on supernatural agents and have no scientific evidence. Like the religious belief in an afterlife. It is much more likely that any personal experience of what could be an afterlife when one goes through near-death experiences are just cognitive errors from an oxygen-depleted brain, than actual supernatural experiences. 

I can't for the help of me think of any sound question that only religion can provide an answer to. Usually the questions themselves are flawed ("what is the meaning of existence") or cannot be answered ("what started big bang"). What religion can do, though, is provide hope and consolation.

 

 

[soon]

Governments are a reason people kill. Pollution kills. Football rivalries kill.

So, governments, pollution, football, and the billions of faithful:

Because Im just that smart. S.M.R.T