USA mass shootings

[janrichmond]

After seeing the reports of the latest mass shooting (in Texas) I read that there have been more shootings this year in America than days. 

191 in 127 days. This is just so sad.

How can it be stopped?

[SoulMonster]

Well, sensible gun laws would be a start. 

[janrichmond]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Well, sensible gun laws would be a start. 

That doesn't seem to be happening

 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

That doesn't seem to be happening

 

You're right. So the mass shootings will continue. 

[Dean]

The Dunblane Massacre resulted in mass restrictions across the UK. To think something like that at such scale is common in America and the lives lost are nothing more than a statistic is terribly sad from an outsider looking in. Change needs to happen but will cause mass divide throughout.

[janrichmond]

39 minutes ago, Dean said:

The Dunblane Massacre resulted in mass restrictions across the UK. To think something like that at such scale is common in America and the lives lost are nothing more than a statistic is terribly sad from an outsider looking in. Change needs to happen but will cause mass divide throughout.

I remember that the gun laws changed after that occurred, the government banned handguns and reimbursed the legal gun owners, and there was also an amnesty for guns.

[janrichmond]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Banning handguns? That will never, ever happen in USA.

I don't get why. Have they ever tried? 

[Cosmo]

I really don’t get America’s obsession with guns. It’s grotesque and kinda sad. “It’s in the constitution” well, fuck it. Look at what its doing to your country. The US is, technically, a rich and developed country, but the level of gun violence you guys have is completely disproportional, and would match a developing country with serious drug cartel, armed militia or political problems. Enough is enough, isnt it? How many children and teenagers must die before people get over the damn fantasy of overthrowing a tyrant government?

[pugachev]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

Other than say BB guns, airguns etc handguns are probably the least lethal and they're probably the most widespread guns both legally and illegally, I assume.

You don't do a mass shooting with handguns anyway due to limited magazine size, fire rate and accuracy(much harder than in the movies).

No good would come from trying to ban handguns in USA. Gun owners would, somewhat justifiably imo, be livid.

Most mass shootings and gun-related deaths are from handguns.

[janrichmond]

The Texas shooter had a handgun and assault rifles, more were found in his car. 

He had an RWDS (right-wing death squad) patch on his jacket. 

[ZoSoRose]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Well, sensible gun laws would be a start. 

 

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

You're right. So the mass shootings will continue. 

/thread

 

 

[SoulMonster]

17 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

"Sensible gun laws". The end. So simple. Call the press!

Does it work like a spell from Harry Potter? "Sensible gun lawerios!" *NRA turns into LGBTQ*

It is so simple that all comparable countries have managed to do it. It is not simple for the US, though. Hence the /thread.

[pugachev]

3 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Really? You're 100% certain of that? I'm not an authority on this topic and have mostly stopped paying attention, so I'm willing to take your word for it but I'm surprised to hear that. I thought most mass shootings were done with assault rifles.

Well, if you're talking banning handguns then really you're talking banning guns entirely. Let's pretend that's even remotely feasible, how does that work? Everyone turn in their guns and the police are defunded or what? What's done about 3D printed guns are we going to have to lose all rights to internet anonymity and try stamping it out with some kind of totalatarian approach like you need a real I.D. to connect to the internet?

Yes, the data is readily available on that.

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-database-amasses-details-half-century-us-mass-shootings
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
https://www.bdtonline.com/news/study-most-mass-shootings-involve-hand-guns/article_2315bb18-091a-11ed-99fa-4bf698e977b8.html

Who here said anything about banning all handguns or defunding the police? Who said a thing about defunding police here?

"It'd probably also help if hyperbole surrounding gun banning was toned down"

Take your own advice and quit with the manufactured strawman arguments. 

As others have said, we have to start with a few common sensical pieces of gun legislation like mandatory universal background checks, mandatory regular mental health evaluations, holding gun owners accountable for securing firearms, etc. 250,000 firearms are stolen each year from so-called "responsible" gun owners. What we can't do is just throw out "thoughts and prayers" every other day while someone's family is mowed down by another maniac with that purchased an AR-15 or handgun like it was bubblegum. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Yes, it's not simple for USA. But the complexity goes beyond "Ban guns oh yeah not that simple. The end."

What comparable countries are you talking about? I can't think of any.

No, it really is THAT simple. If sensible gun laws could be introduced in the US it would have a significant effect on gun violence. 

Australia, Canada and the UK are some examples.

 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

But apparently they can't be introduced...right? So it's NOT that simple...right?

Fuck me.

Hence the /thread.

[Rovim]

every country in the world has its own collective mentality which determines how flexible the people are and in what areas of life and then there's the goverment of a country which has its own agendas, level of corruption, and just their way of doing things or avoiding doing what's right to get votes. If you can't change the mentality of the people, your ability for change is limited. 

sadly, just as an outsider looking at the US, I think a lot more people are going to be brutally murdered in mass shootings and shit will need to reach a critical point which they are not there yet, where enough people won't tolerate this shit anymore so those in powerful political positions will actually have to do something about it which is, in fact, more sensible gun laws.

 

  

[action]

in the US especially, people don't lead meaningfull lives anymore. The society is hugely divided and there hasn't been more intolerance between people than since the days of stalin.

that's what you get with a "I'm the most tolerant person ever, but only when it's my personal extremist opinion" mentality.

Within this vast, intolerant mass, you then have lunatics who can shoot innocent people without a reason. Without a gun, they wouldn't have done it. But, without a climate of intolerance, they wouldn't either.

But of course, it's all the fault of gun laws and gun laws alone. Too much guns. Strange. In the middle east, you can buy an AK47 on the market so to speak. Apart from the religious inspired terrorist attack you don't hear of this type of mass shooting there. Because, even with the huge divide in religious beliefs in the middle east, you'd find that people of the middle east are very friendly, altruistic and compassionate.

Western people on the other hand, and americans in particular, are complainers. They want to succeed in life by doing nothing. When that is not economically valable, you get frustrated people like this.

So no, I do not think that changing gun laws will change the smallest thing. Everyone's mentality needs to change for that to happen.

Edited May 8, 2023 by action

[Rovim]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Sensible gun laws? I'm all for that. What I'm trying to explain is there's more to it than 'just' more sensible gun laws and it matters how those laws are presented. That's all.

sure, but first more sensible gun laws and actually enforcing that shit imho. My post was maybe overly simplistic but my point is that that's the major hurdle, the legislation for many different reasons that are often talked about.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Rovim

[action]

"more enforcement of gun laws", while at the same time criticising the violent police apparatus.

it's always someone else who needs to sort things out. The government needs to make better laws. The police needs to enforce them better, while at the same time needing to become less brutal.

Another one of these logical fallacies you see proposed: "the other needs to become less violent, with violence if necessary"

I'd say, the current "gun laws" al least provide hope, that things can change. There is always the hope, that shootings will decrease when there's better laws. Go on then, change your gunlaws. I can guarantee, that without a change of people's mentality far and wide, mass murders will still happen.

Edited May 8, 2023 by action

[SoulMonster]

13 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I think you need to address all the other stuff I mentioned too at the same time, possibly first. Such as abolishing lobbyism, creating genuine dialogue with gun owners rather than barking orders at them and of course addressing the mental health crisis.

There are basically two different approaches: (1) reduce the amount of guns or (2) make people less likely to use guns in violence (or a combination thereof). The latter is the essence of the "guns do not kill people, people kill people" argument that gun lovers tend to use. The problem with the latter approach is that it means you have to somehow change people to make them less likely to use guns in violence. And that requires structural societal changes, like a different way of taking care of the mentally ill, less financial inequality in society, a moving away from gun and violence culture, etc etc, all of which are much harder to achieve, on paper at least, than introducing sensible gun laws. Which is why other countries have simply enacted more strict gun laws and enjoyed a reduction in gun violence. Serbia, btw, is now discussing banning hand guns after their two recent tragedies. 

Unfortunately, in the US, introducing sensible gun laws isn't as easy as it has been elsewhere, because of the political tribalism, corruption, lobbyists, wide-spread ignorance - basically, because their democracy is flawed in so many ways - so in short: That country is fucked. The gun violence will not be reduced because they can't do either (1) or (2). At least in the short term.

Edited May 8, 2023 by SoulMonster

[Rovim]

13 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I think you need to address all the other stuff I mentioned too at the same time, possibly first. Such as abolishing lobbyism, creating genuine dialogue with gun owners rather than barking orders at them and of course addressing the mental health crisis.

Here's an example of the mentality I'm talking about, on a different topic; we want to stop using coal, right? Well, some people are pro-coal, their livlihoods depend on it. So we need to figure things out with them and how to go forward together like creating new jobs for them. "Fuck you we'll figure it out later if we get around to it. YOU'RE KILLING US! YOU'RE KILLING US!"  Simply isn't good enough and will not work, it certainly won't work quickly.

I'm saying, get everyone on board by looking out for each other and going forward togther. Sincerely btw not just appeasing.

I think I've already covered what you're talking about here in my previous two posts. There are a lot of steps that should be taken to reach the positive change when it comes to gun violence in the US, for stricter gun laws to be implemented, etc. I was just saying that if/when the US will see that day, it will be the main step imo to prevent the brutal murders of innocent people.

[Rovim]

12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

So you're saying in the context of addressing those other things too, the laws will be the biggest factor? I'm not really sure about that but you could be right.

yeah I think until you can educate an entire country/change the mentality of enough people by using various methods that you've also mentioned, which is also very important and a part of the solution imo, first you gotta implement stricter gun laws. Like first stopping the bleeding in a patient for example, and then use whatever you can to treat them when it's more stable cause now it's fucked and has been for a long time now.

in a country like the US, the problem of gun violence is complicated, so it's not going to be an easy solution, or just 1 step to make it all better, but it will be a great start when people won't be able to own an AR-15 for example or an arsenal of weapons that could be enough to arm a small army or selling weapons to basically anyone without worrying too much when it comes to who is it that you're selling a deadly weapon to.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Rovim

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

What do you think should be done regarding 3D printed guns?

kinda like asking what do I think should be done about illegally buying a real gun, no? I don't think it's possible to totally prevent people with poor judgement or malicious intentions from getting their hands on a weapon, but if you prevent most people that shouldn't own a weapon from doing so, you're already on the right track imo.

also, I'm not saying I know the exact solution for every aspect of the problem of gun violence in the US, like 3d printed guns, or even if a certain solution will work but how many mass shootings involved 3d printed guns? it seems like it could become a serious problem, but there are more burning issues right now like how easy it is to just legally buy a weapon in the US.

maybe make it illegal to 3D print a gun and build a system that recognizes and prevents the 3d printer to print it, but even if that's not possible, or there is a much better solution that I can't think of right now or at all, I think that the more difficult you make it for people to get their hands on weapons, especially semi auto or automatic weapons, rifles, etc, it's still better than the shitshow they are in now.

[Dazey]

Clearly the solution is to ban Americans. 

[jekylhyde]

44 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Clearly the solution is to ban Americans. 

I'm afraid of AmeriGuns.