Oh My God, The Big Daddy SCOM and Axl's "perfectionism"

[Cosmo]

The other day I was thinking about this whole "Axl is such a perfectionist" myth that people say. And then I remembered That Big Daddy version of SCOM from 1999, which was something pretty unusual to release. I mean - who the hell releases a track which has a live first half performed by one band, and a studio second half performed by another? That kinda goes against the "Axl is a perfectionist" stuff. But then we need to remember there was Oh My God, which also had a terrible mix, and sounded like a demo. And that was quickly released by the new line-up, in 1999 also.  So So I was thinking - if those songs got very negative reception, maybe that is what triggered Axl's "I'm not gonna release stuff until I deem it to be perfect" thing. I mean, kinda weird for a guy to go from "Release this new track as is, with this awful mix that makes it sound like a demo" to "I know it's been 8 years since GnR last released a single, but we're still not ready". I know this has probably been discussed already, but am I missing something?

[jekylhyde]

In my opinion, perfectionism is a bullshit term. There is no such thing as a perfectionist. You either tinker endlessly because you're insecure/indecisive or you complete your art and understand that being an artist is a long, ongoing, endless process, which means your work will never be "perfect".

And I think with Axl it was a case of endless tinkering caused by insecurity and indecisiveness. He would've needed a good manager and a good producer, but more importantly he should've been ready and willing to trust them too.

Edited July 10, 2023 by jekylhyde

[SoulMonster]

I consider perfectionism and insecurity to often be two sides of the same coin. 

As for Axl, he clearly isn't overly concerned over all aspects of his art. Some songs he would be happy to release in an "imperfect" state, others he would tinker on for long times. In my opinion, he considers "the album" to be really important, with some songs being key to the experience of that art. The album should be packaged correctly according to his vision, and these key songs on the album should be exactly like he pictured them in his mind's eye. Similarly to how he experienced albums when growing up from the 60s and 70s, as a package with cover art and credits and then some really great songs and some that are more "filler". With Chinese Democracy, the album, came the added weight of this being a test of his ability to take GN'R forward, a demonstration of his abilities as an artist without Slash and the rest of the previous lineups, and also, and maybe more importantly, a validation of his importance in GN'R, also on the band's previous albums.

[jacdaniel]

If Axl was really a perfectionist then he'd show up for rehearsals, soundchecks and in great shape at the start of new tours. 

He's not actually a perfectionist though. That's just one of the many excuses people have used to defend his lack of productivity. 

[Guest]

https://chinese-democracy.blogspot.com/2009/02/del-james-interviews-axl.html

Do you feel that your alleged sense of perfectionism has delayed the release of the album? Del James

"No. Guns in any lineup wasn't going to release anything all that great any sooner. And no matter how any of us tried, that didn't happen, and often while any number of us were pushing to try and do so with whatever we had going at the time. In regard to so-called perfectionism, I feel that has a lot to do with your goals or requirements with whatever one's doing or creating. Different levels may be required for different objectives. If you're making brakes for a vehicle, what's required? It's all relative, right? You try to make the best calls you can at any given moment and go from there. Generally, when this term is used by others in regard to me or how I work, it's said in a negative way or as an excuse for their shortcomings -- and again by my detractors. Whether they are open about such or not, some people love putting others in a negative light; helps them feel better about themselves. Too many ears and too many stupid comments have proven that. Axl Rose

Edited July 10, 2023 by Shacklermyrye

[DSTK]

I could honestly go to a gig if scom wasn't played, I wouldn't be bothered...and if OMG was played, I'd go hyper 

[Billy Cundy]

If axl was a perfectionist, he wouldn’t be using Frank Ferrer.

no but seriously, I think axl would’ve greatly benefited from a long-standing paternal producer like MJ had in Quincy, or the Beatles had in Sir George Martin. I assume after Appetite, the power balance shifted and it would’ve been difficult for anyone, even Clink, to challenge his authority. Once he was a success, it was his way or the highway. That doesn’t really bode well for music, as really the producers should really be the grown ups in the room. As we’ve seen, with Axl as the big kahuna, he’s floundered and tinkered and dragged his feet for what, 30 years? Yes axl was a phenomenal singer and proved he could contribute to a hit, but even McCartney deferred to George Martin. 
 

I love axl but he only ever achieved anything approaching perfection on AFD. And that had Clink at the reigns, and 4 other musicians contributing equally. What does that tell you? 
 

 

[SoulMonster]

15 minutes ago, Billy Cundy said:

If axl was a perfectionist, he wouldn’t be using Frank Ferrer.

no but seriously, I think axl would’ve greatly benefited from a long-standing paternal producer like MJ had in Quincy, or the Beatles had in Sir George Martin. I assume after Appetite, the power balance shifted and it would’ve been difficult for anyone, even Clink, to challenge his authority. Once he was a success, it was his way or the highway. That doesn’t really bode well for music, as really the producers should really be the grown ups in the room. As we’ve seen, with Axl as the big kahuna, he’s floundered and tinkered and dragged his feet for what, 30 years? Yes axl was a phenomenal singer and proved he could contribute to a hit, but even McCartney deferred to George Martin. 
 

I love axl but he only ever achieved anything approaching perfection on AFD. And that had Clink at the reigns, and 4 other musicians contributing equally. What does that tell you? 

That you like Appetite more than Chinese.

[meadsoap]

2 hours ago, Billy Cundy said:

If axl was a perfectionist, he wouldn’t be using Frank Ferrer.

no but seriously, I think axl would’ve greatly benefited from a long-standing paternal producer like MJ had in Quincy, or the Beatles had in Sir George Martin. I assume after Appetite, the power balance shifted and it would’ve been difficult for anyone, even Clink, to challenge his authority. Once he was a success, it was his way or the highway. That doesn’t really bode well for music, as really the producers should really be the grown ups in the room. As we’ve seen, with Axl as the big kahuna, he’s floundered and tinkered and dragged his feet for what, 30 years? Yes axl was a phenomenal singer and proved he could contribute to a hit, but even McCartney deferred to George Martin. 
 

I love axl but he only ever achieved anything approaching perfection on AFD. And that had Clink at the reigns, and 4 other musicians contributing equally. What does that tell you? 
 

 

If you're using AFD as the measuring stick, most other people would fall short of that too. No one in the band has put out an album as great as AFD, but that's not due to them having shortcomings as a musician. It was lightning in a bottle.

The main problem with Chinese Democracy is not the basic songwriting (which is really great imo, even if very different from what people wanted him to make). He just tinkered with it too long and added too many bells and whistles that ultimately detracted from the experience. There's a reason most of those songs sound much better in the demo stages or when played live. 

Axl was never lacking in good ideas for music. What he needed was a person to snatch his hands away from the work and say "enough is enough". Without it he just ended up chasing his own tail trying to find a version of the songs that he would be satisfied with, never realizing that his lack of satisfaction wasn't really because of the songs or how they sounded. They were just a scapegoat, a representation of turmoil within himself.

Once you begin to understand that the route cause of Axl's anxiety was really never about the music, you can understand why it's manifested in contradictory ways over the years. Absent and careless in some places, controlling in others. They're all coping mechanisms. Ones that sadly obscure the great musical talent that Axl really is. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by meadsoap

[guitarpatch]

My thoughts is that he was upset that the label told him there weren’t many strong songs on it and that they wanted them to re-record the album around that time. A tactic by Jimmy Iovine to maybe get Slash back in the fold? 

Maybe it broke his confidence in the material or maybe he didn’t feel the new label was ever going to back the record and just wanted a reunion (Geffen had essentially been dissolved, many of the people the band worked with gone and the label had just merged with UMG at the time) 

Perhaps he just decided to blow up the label’s budget in defiance by tinkering/re-recording as they requested for as long as he could and rename the project Chinese Democracy. Something that sounds good in theory, but will never exist 
 

 

 

[UseYourDemocracyIII]

not an expert, haven't been around long enough, but whenever i hear about CD and Axl being a perfectionist, i just don't think it's true. i hear music in my head sometimes, and i imagine art sometimes. my inability to translate that into real world material is extremely frustrating, maddeningly so. i always figured Axl was similar. not trying to make perfect music, but just trying to get the sound he hears out into the world exactly as he hears it. which is difficult, cause the sound changes, the human brain is inconsistent. it's like chasing a heat mirage, it's always far away. the ability to stop and accept what you've made despite its imperfections is a learned skill.

AFD and UYI were combined efforts. CD? it was just Axl. he had people play on it, yes, but i'm pretty certain it was just his vision. not a great artist contributing to a collaborative work, but a great artist trying to translate from mind to matter. that's always been the difference from my pov.

[Axls_Moustache_Rules]

13 hours ago, Shacklermyrye said:

https://chinese-democracy.blogspot.com/2009/02/del-james-interviews-axl.html

Do you feel that your alleged sense of perfectionism has delayed the release of the album? Del James

"No. Guns in any lineup wasn't going to release anything all that great any sooner. And no matter how any of us tried, that didn't happen, and often while any number of us were pushing to try and do so with whatever we had going at the time. In regard to so-called perfectionism, I feel that has a lot to do with your goals or requirements with whatever one's doing or creating. Different levels may be required for different objectives. If you're making brakes for a vehicle, what's required? It's all relative, right? You try to make the best calls you can at any given moment and go from there. Generally, when this term is used by others in regard to me or how I work, it's said in a negative way or as an excuse for their shortcomings -- and again by my detractors . Whether they are open about such or not, some people love putting others in a negative light; helps them feel better about themselves. Too many ears and too many stupid comments have proven that. Axl Rose

Holy shit I never thought I would hear him utter a DSPism. Axl has detractors! 

[Hollyangel]

I think Axl is a complicated guy with bad anxiety, controlling personality and a whole lot of deep rooted personal stuff going on through his life that contributed both to his brilliance and the stalling of himself as a productive artist.  He probably needed someone stronger than him, to just take him in hand and cut the endless bullshit that seemed to go on.  Easier said than done clearly.   

[DSTK]

21 hours ago, Billy Cundy said:

If axl was a perfectionist, he wouldn’t be using Frank Ferrer.

no but seriously, I think axl would’ve greatly benefited from a long-standing paternal producer like MJ had in Quincy, or the Beatles had in Sir George Martin. I assume after Appetite, the power balance shifted and it would’ve been difficult for anyone, even Clink, to challenge his authority. Once he was a success, it was his way or the highway. That doesn’t really bode well for music, as really the producers should really be the grown ups in the room. As we’ve seen, with Axl as the big kahuna, he’s floundered and tinkered and dragged his feet for what, 30 years? Yes axl was a phenomenal singer and proved he could contribute to a hit, but even McCartney deferred to George Martin. 
 

I love axl but he only ever achieved anything approaching perfection on AFD. And that had Clink at the reigns, and 4 other musicians contributing equally. What does that tell you? 
 

 

Steven isn't even the best drummer Guns have worked with, so leave this Adler bandwagon where it belongs, the 80s

[Billy Cundy]

40 minutes ago, DSTK said:

Steven isn't even the best drummer Guns have worked with, so leave this Adler bandwagon where it belongs, the 80s

Nah I’m staying on the bandwagon. He might not have been technically the steadiest drummer, but he was certainly my favourite. 

Sorum was a far crisper and more powerful drummer. He was a very deliberate player and that was a welcome quality when the venues got bigger and the arrangements became more complex and demanding. Sorum had an authoritative left hand/right foot, and just the right amount of push and pull between sections of songs, not to mention his shotgun backbeat. Frank’s really lacking that sense of theatre and drama in his playing. Sometimes it sounds like he arrives at the downbeat by accident. 
I know he’s a ‘groove’ drummer but GNR aren’t Steely Dan. I think his playing lacks the definition required.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Billy Cundy

[Sausagebrain]

22 minutes ago, Billy Cundy said:

I know he’s a ‘groove’ drummer but GNR aren’t Steely Dan. I think his playing lacks the definition required.

Interesting that you should bring up Steely Dan in a thread like this.

The Steely Dan guys were infamous for their studio 'perfectionism'. To the point where they would junk hours of performances from some of the top pop/rock/jazz musicians of the time. 

But despite this, in their heyday they put out a new album every year or two. Unlike.... you know who. 

 

 

[Billy Cundy]

19 minutes ago, Sausagebrain said:

Interesting that you should bring up Steely Dan in a thread like this.

The Steely Dan guys were infamous for their studio 'perfectionism'. To the point where they would junk hours of performances from some of the top pop/rock/jazz musicians of the time. 

But despite this, in their heyday they put out a new album every year or two. Unlike.... you know who. 

 

 

Steely Dan are one my favourite bands. If GNR were the band of my teen years, Steely Dan have been the band of my 20s. Same goes for Donald Fagen’s solo output.
Their ‘perfectionism’ gave us some of the most astounding performances in popular music history. Steve Gadd on ‘Aja’, Larry Carlton on ‘Kid Charlemagne’… Bernard Purdie on everything. But those guys were geniuses. 

I saw them live (without Walter sadly) a few years back and it was truly mesmeric. Keith Carlock on drums. Wowzer. 

[DSTK]

I'm not saying Steven wasn't awesome on Appetite, I just feel that Dave Grohl has hired the man that Axl should have had for 20+ years, or Brain 

Frank is decent, seen him with Guns 13 times, I really don't get all the hate 

[SoulMonster]

39 minutes ago, DSTK said:

I'm not saying Steven wasn't awesome on Appetite, I just feel that Dave Grohl has hired the man that Axl should have had for 20+ years, or Brain 

Frank is decent, seen him with Guns 13 times, I really don't get all the hate 

There will always be a contingent of the hardcore fanbase that will hate on Frank because despite all his skills he persistently and annoyingly refuses to be Steven Adler. 

[Sausagebrain]

51 minutes ago, DSTK said:

I'm not saying Steven wasn't awesome on Appetite, I just feel that Dave Grohl has hired the man that Axl should have had for 20+ years, or Brain 

Frank is decent, seen him with Guns 13 times, I really don't get all the hate 

Would have been awesome to have Josh as a permanent drummer for GnR, but in hindsight it was never going to happen. That guy likes to get around (professionally!)

[Billy Cundy]

37 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There will always be a contingent of the hardcore fanbase that will hate on Frank because despite all his skills he persistently and annoyingly refuses to be Steven Adler. 

Or they, like me, just don’t like his drumming? I’ve provided some specifics in my response above about what I believe to be his weaknesses when performing GNR music are. Nothing to do with him ‘just not being Steven Adler’ 🙂 some people have discerning ears and can tell what they like and don’t like. Others will just accept what daddy Axl gives them on a plate and gobble it up. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Billy Cundy

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Billy Cundy said:

Or they, like me, just don’t like his drumming? I’ve provided some specifics in my response above about what I believe to be his weaknesses when performing GNR music are. Nothing to do with him ‘just not being Steven Adler’ 🙂 some people have discerning ears and can tell what they like and don’t like. Others will just accept what daddy Axl gives them on a plate and gobble it up. 

I was making a joke not targeted at you. 

[Gigigil]

Perfectionism and insecurity feed of each other. If you don't compromise, the result is nothing. 

I have no idea if Axl is a perfectionist. Maybe an idealist with a hard shell and a soft core. As for CD, I think he tamed that monster in his own way. He seems well resolved now, self grounded. Maybe now he can live at his best, whatever that means to us.

[ZoSoRose]

The older I get, the more I can see how easy it is to get lost to years. I feel like Axl just got lost in bullshit. Combined behind the scenes legal shit, expectations, lineup changes, likely behind the scenes drama, Axl himself, general craziness, etc- it just got out of hand.

Personally, I think the 2008 version of Chinese Democracy is better than the 1999 version. 9 years better? I don’t know, but we would have probably gotten more new music if it came out then

Edited July 12, 2023 by ZoSoRose

[rumandraisin]

I've always thought the perfectionist thing was rubbish. And OMG 99 showed that. Such a weird mix on that demo and really bizarre it got released. 

I've wondered whether Axl went through bouts of bi polar style mania and a brief manic episode led to the flurry of 99 events, doing a few interviews, releasing OMG?