Has Frank been relegated to a touring drummer?

[Billy Cundy]

As I said on another thread, it’s common practice. In the good old days, studio drummers like Jim Keltner/Jim Gordon/Jeff Porcaro would record the track, then a live drummer would replicate it on the road. These monster studio musicians didn’t need to schlep around the world to make their money, they stayed in LA to do dates … because they were a cut above. Live hired guns are also brilliant musicians, but there’s a reason artists used studio specific players. 
 

[Free Bird]

3 hours ago, allwaystired said:

Reasonable theory I'd say. 

It's equally likely though that there was just no need to replace the drums. 

Slash and Duff needed to be added, for publicity and authenticity and personal politics reasons......other than that, there maybe just wasn't a reason to re-do stuff that already sounded good? 

Slash and Duff were needed for the songs to sound more like GNR.

There are rumors or hints that Slash and Duff have (or had) their difficulties with Franks playing. When they're getting material to work on with an existing drum track, why replace it with a drummer they don't get along with very well (on a musical sense - not on a personal level).

I think Frank would get his chance if they were ever to write and record new shit.

[AxlRoseCDII]

It's a tricky question to answer I think. The answer I think is yes and no. On the one hand, Frank did play some songs on CD, the newest album. You can argue that moves him out of the touring drummer status, and I think if they were to record entirely new material, there's a solid chance Frank would be involved to at least some degree.

Brain's tracks were all recorded 20 or whatever years ago. They have them sitting around, and it's likely what the band agrees is best anyways, so having Frank redo them would be a waste of time and money. Frank, who was recommended by Brain, likely understands that Brain got him the current role and just stays in his lane, so to speak. It's a weird thing to conclude what this all means. I don't think we'd ever really have the answer until an entirely new GNR song comes out, which may be never. 

That being said, basically everyone besides Axl, Slash, and Duff are considering touring members in a way. No one besides the Big 3 are really ever promoted, never in the lithos, etc. It's cool they got nods in the music videos. With GNR though, I don't think Axl really ever thinks of it as touring members and studio members, I think he just sees everyone as a band member (a few other people said this too).

[Seb91]

I think the status of band members has changed since the NuGuns era. In the NuGuns era there was the vibe that everyone was a full GN'R member,  everyone had their solo spots and was featured in promo stuff; the biggest example of that was the 2010 tour shirt with all the band members (my favourite band shirt of all time - fairly faded now but I'm never giving it up! ). Since the reunion the vibe has been that Axl, Slash and Duff are GN'R as all the promo stuff has just featured them. To be fair that's not unusual, Darryl Jones is very much Bill Wyman's replacement in the Stones as he's played on the records, same goes for Guy Pratt in Pink Floyd and yet neither became proper band members.

Re Frank's relegation - I think the difference with GN'R is that Brain is still on the books as he never technically left and so if it's all about having the current lineup on there I imagine Axl doesn't see the point in paying Frank to copy Brain's parts when he's still part of the band. Plus, as the official line is Guns is Axl, Slash and Duff then it doesn't really matter anyway in terms of representing the current lineup. I mean, I'm sure Frank doesn't mind, he knows the reality of the music business and as one of the last NuGuns standing along with Richard, is able to make more money than with NuGuns I imagine due to the scale of the tours and shows. I imagine if pigs were to fly there were a new record from scratch then anyone not Axl, Slash and Duff would be listed as 'additional musicians' rather than part of GN'R. Therefore I think it's not really possible to say whether Frank's been fully relegated as there hasn't yet been a release that needed a drum track (and let's be honest, there isn't likely to be). if a new record from scratch were to come out and it was all Brain then yeah, we can safely say Frank's been relegated but then anyone not Axl, Slash or Duff isn't a GN'R member anyway it seems these days. 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by BassistSeb

[silkchild]

47 minutes ago, AxlRoseCDII said:

 

Brain's tracks were all recorded 20 or whatever years ago. They have them sitting around, and it's likely what the band agrees is best anyways, so having Frank redo them would be a waste of time and money. Frank, who was recommended by Brain, likely understands that Brain got him the current role and just stays in his lane, so to speak. 

That’s not so, Fortus is responsible for putting Frank forward. They were former band mates in PsychedIic Furs. I was gutted when Brain left. And still am  I’ve never liked Frank in the Band. They leave Brains parts on, as he spent many years with them recording, after they transcribed all Josh’s original parts and  he re-did them. That is above Franks ability. I’m sure he’s  a top bloke personally. But why would you remove parts, and replace them with inferior ones by somebody with less ability? 
 

Frank is lucky to be playing with these guys at all imo. Bottom of all Guns drummers.

[liers]

4 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

I saw a theory on another site that makes sense:

These tracks were worked on in lockdown. Slash and Duff have home studios, but maybe there wasn't a way for Frank to redo the drums at home.

That, and since the drums are the backbone of a song, Slash and Duff (and Richard and Melissa) just worked with what was already in the bank (for example, Brain's drum tracks from the early 2000s) to just get the job done – we know they've been sat on these for a while.

Just a theory, but it makes sense since Brain often still tours with the band anyway, so 1. If he was in the band, he'd be playing, and 2. We'd know Frank wasn't a member and he wouldn't be treated like one, which he is.

Also, remember there's a bunch of songs on Chinese Democracy that do feature Frank.

I doubt that lockdown has anything to do with it. Axl and GnR have enough connections that they would’ve been able to get Frank into a studio if it was that important.

[DoMw94]

6 minutes ago, liers said:

I doubt that lockdown has anything to do with it. Axl and GnR have enough connections that they would’ve been able to get Frank into a studio if it was that important.

They're only human, and were subjected to the same rules as the rest of us

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, AxlRoseCDII said:

It's a tricky question to answer I think. The answer I think is yes and no. On the one hand, Frank did play some songs on CD, the newest album. You can argue that moves him out of the touring drummer status, and I think if they were to record entirely new material, there's a solid chance Frank would be involved to at least some degree.

Brain's tracks were all recorded 20 or whatever years ago. They have them sitting around, and it's likely what the band agrees is best anyways, so having Frank redo them would be a waste of time and money. Frank, who was recommended by Brain, likely understands that Brain got him the current role and just stays in his lane, so to speak. It's a weird thing to conclude what this all means. I don't think we'd ever really have the answer until an entirely new GNR song comes out, which may be never. 

That being said, basically everyone besides Axl, Slash, and Duff are considering touring members in a way. No one besides the Big 3 are really ever promoted, never in the lithos, etc. It's cool they got nods in the music videos. With GNR though, I don't think Axl really ever thinks of it as touring members and studio members, I think he just sees everyone as a band member (a few other people said this too).

 

38 minutes ago, BassistSeb said:

I think the status of band members has changed since the NuGuns era. In the NuGuns era there was the vibe that everyone was a full GN'R member,  everyone had their solo spots and was featured in promo stuff; the biggest example of that was the 2010 tour shirt with all the band members (my favourite band shirt of all time - fairly faded now but I'm never giving it up! ). Since the reunion the vibe has been that Axl, Slash and Duff are GN'R as all the promo stuff has just featured them. To be fair that's not unusual, Darryl Jones is very much Bill Wyman's replacement in the Stones as he's played on the records, same goes for Guy Pratt in Pink Floyd and yet neither became proper band members.

Re Frank's relegation - I think the difference with GN'R is that Brain is still on the books as he never technically left and so if it's all about having the current lineup on there I imagine Axl doesn't see the point in paying Frank to copy Brain's parts when he's still part of the band. Plus, as the official line is Guns is Axl, Slash and Duff then it doesn't really matter anyway in terms of representing the current lineup. I mean, I'm sure Frank doesn't mind, he knows the reality of the music business and as one of the last NuGuns standing along with Richard, is able to make more money than with NuGuns I imagine due to the scale of the tours and shows. I imagine if pigs were to fly there were a new record from scratch then anyone not Axl, Slash and Duff would be listed as 'additional musicians' rather than part of GN'R. Therefore I think it's not really possible to say whether Frank's been fully relegated as there hasn't yet been a release that needed a drum track (and let's be honest, there isn't likely to be). if a new record from scratch were to come out and it was all Brain then yeah, we can safely say Frank's been relegated but then anyone not Axl, Slash or Duff isn't a GN'R member anyway it seems these days. 

 

I think the question isn't if anybody is a touring member or not. It started with Matt, Gilby and Dizzy. They were hired back in the day. Either you are GNR or you are a hired member on the bands payroll. 

[DoMw94]

48 minutes ago, BassistSeb said:

if pigs were to fly there were a new record from scratch then anyone not Axl, Slash and Duff would be listed as 'additional musicians' rather than part of GN'R.

Oh I don't think that'll be the case at all. Regardless of the lithos (and all seven were on one recently), everyone is regarded as a member in official posts, photos etc, and nobody that's in the band and has been on the three releases so far have been regarded as 'additional musicians'. The closest we'll get is them just being listed without such labels (like how Brain was regarded as a guest on Absurb, but is just listed as one of the performers on Perhaps).

Dizzy, Richard, Frank, and Melissa will definitely be considered part of Guns N' Roses on any potential upcoming record. That's not in doubt.

[Tom2112]

34 minutes ago, silkchild said:

That’s not so, Fortus is responsible for putting Frank forward. They were former band mates in PsychedIic Furs. I was gutted when Brain left. And still am  I’ve never liked Frank in the Band. They leave Brains parts on, as he spent many years with them recording, after they transcribed all Josh’s original parts and  he re-did them. That is above Franks ability. I’m sure he’s  a top bloke personally. But why would you remove parts, and replace them with inferior ones by somebody with less ability? 
 

Frank is lucky to be playing with these guys at all imo. Bottom of all Guns drummers.

Above Franks ability yet he plays all Brains part live effortlessly. And he played on Chinese and his performance was no less enjoyable as what Brain did. 

I get it that people have this hang up about Frank, and think he's like this beginner level drummer that just lucked out. But, you're flat out wrong🤣 He might not tickle your fancy, but he clearly does it for Axl otherwise he would never have lasted this long in the band. No amount of loyalty and being a good employee that says quiet is going to save your job if you can't actually play your instrument. He can play all the back catalogue with ease, he's dependable and he doesn't rock the boat... enough said!

And I like Brain too. I just think the amount of shit said about Frank is ridiculous. AND I acknowledge that Frank plays certain songs 'his way' I don't enjoy some of that (verse of Jungle), he's not perfect.

[scooby845]

2 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

He played on one released track and a handful of demos we weren't supposed to hear.

You're forgetting Brain re-rerecorded Josh's fills for CD. There isn't a single drum hit Brain came up with. So, in a sense, Josh is the original drummer for CD. 

[Seb91]

4 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Above Franks ability yet he plays all Brains part live effortlessly. And he played on Chinese and his performance was no less enjoyable as what Brain did. 

I get it that people have this hang up about Frank, and think he's like this beginner level drummer that just lucked out. But, you're flat out wrong🤣 He might not tickle your fancy, but he clearly does it for Axl otherwise he would never have lasted this long in the band. No amount of loyalty and being a good employee that says quiet is going to save your job if you can't actually play your instrument. He can play all the back catalogue with ease, he's dependable and he doesn't rock the boat... enough said!

And I like Brain too. I just think the amount of shit said about Frank is ridiculous. AND I acknowledge that Frank plays certain songs 'his way' I don't enjoy some of that (verse of Jungle), he's not perfect.

This. I don't get the hate for Frank, dude's doing a solid job and has done throughout his time in Guns. Sure, Brain's great and my favourite GN'R drummer but that doesn't mean Frank is bad. I mean, equally no guitarist the band's had since Bucket has been on his level but I'm still a huge, huge fan of Bumble and Slash. 

[riot]

I like to beleve he'll record drums if they write new songs.

[DoMw94]

14 minutes ago, scooby845 said:

You're forgetting Brain re-rerecorded Josh's fills for CD. There isn't a single drum hit Brain came up with. So, in a sense, Josh is the original drummer for CD. 

And? Think of the countless songwriters in the business that have never performed with the act they worked for. Nobody lauds Diane Warren as one of the greatest people to ever be in Aerosmith because she wrote their biggest hit (commerically).

In GN'R terms, we know Josh best as a writer, he didn't do anywhere near enough from a performance perspective

[GNR4Ever2024]

It costs money to re record tracks from 20 years ago. If it aint broke dont fix it.

I swear the people in this forum think everything is a conspiracy/rocket science. 

When we get a new album of material from not  20+ years ago Frank will be on it.

end thread

Edited August 20, 2023 by GNR4Ever2024

[HollyWoodRose84]

4 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

Think of any band. The drummer's almost always first to go, always the easiest to replace, very few stand out as 'stars' and none of the five drummers GN'R's had have been 'stars'.

Outside of this forum, nobody gives a damn who's playing drums, and that's why they've been able to go through so many with so little consequence.

Led Zeppelin aside, most bands carry on as-is when they replace a drummer. The same can't be said for a guitarist or singer.

Some big bands who's drummer was well regarded or a key part of their sound: The Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, Foo Fighters, Kiss, The Who – all still going with replacement drummers and it hasn't harmed their sales. Even AC/DC did alright without Phil Rudd more than once.

Frank's clearly not bad, he's in Guns N' Roses, but he's just as interchangeable as every single person who's sat in that seat before him – if they weren't they'd still be there.

In the grand scheme of things, who plays the drums has never been a crucial element of this band, I think you're placing way too much importance on it. Every release has had a different player, even now they're able to pick and choose just to get the thing over the line. The position isn't important anymore. Slash and Axl are the deal-breakers for Guns N' Roses, not one of many no-name drummers that nobody outside of these four walls has heard of

I respectfully disagree with both of your responses to my posts. 

[WVsax27]

Idk I doubt anyone that is touring with the band now is under the impression their “role” in the band is anything other than what it is…meaning I’m sure Frank isn’t sitting around going “what the hell guys?!” 
 

Should start a GNR farm system band 

[The Real McCoy]

5 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

Different scenarios though. They were in the process of building an album from scratch, whereas this was about adding 'new' parts to already finished songs as something to do during lockdown. Hardly worth comparing really

Brain never officially left the band, he just took an extended hiatus to be a dad. I think that’s the main difference. He still tours with the band from time to time, and he’s dating Melissa, so he’s very much still part of the inner circle.

[kiwiguns]

You guys must live a very simple and non complicated life. Brain left the band due to personal reasons ie, being a new dad. A very normal situation that makes life complicated for all involved including the band at that particular time. Richard recommended a person and that person answered the call, being thrown into a  situation at the deep end.. I would suspect at the time, it would have been very easy for Frank to think, he is pushing shit up a hill and to pass on the opportunity. 

Given what we know about Axl, I think Frank is highly respected for taking on the challenge and is a very important part of Guns N Roses today both musically and as a band member... 

Taking Melissa under his wing, also shows the type of person Frank is, having walked in the same shoes....

Judging by the Perhaps video, the band is extremely tight and that is contributing to us getting to see and experience the band post the reunion.

That appreance, only means good things for us as fans in the future...

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by kiwiguns

[silkchild]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

Above Franks ability yet he plays all Brains part live effortlessly. And he played on Chinese and his performance was no less enjoyable as what Brain did. 

I get it that people have this hang up about Frank, and think he's like this beginner level drummer that just lucked out. But, you're flat out wrong🤣 He might not tickle your fancy, but he clearly does it for Axl otherwise he would never have lasted this long in the band. No amount of loyalty and being a good employee that says quiet is going to save your job if you can't actually play your instrument. He can play all the back catalogue with ease, he's dependable and he doesn't rock the boat... enough said!

And I like Brain too. I just think the amount of shit said about Frank is ridiculous. AND I acknowledge that Frank plays certain songs 'his way' I don't enjoy some of that (verse of Jungle), he's not perfect.

All the parts effortlessly? Kenney Jones was in the Who, he also was not doing Keith Moons parts flawlessly  but did a job. Though of course I respect your take on things. 
 

 

[Tom2112]

13 minutes ago, silkchild said:

All the parts effortlessly? Kenney Jones was in the Who, he also was not doing Keith Moons parts flawlessly  but did a job. Though of course I respect your take on things. 
 

 

But which of the chinese era songs is Frank having trouble on? he pretty much plays them to the record, or at least 80/90% to the record which is kinda what you would expect. I don't really know how else to measure if he's doing a good job other than if he plays the parts right or does something different that's equally good (or bad).

No musician is going to be liked by everyone, and Frank certainly isn't loved by all. 

 

[silkchild]

3 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

But which of the chinese era songs is Frank having trouble on? he pretty much plays them to the record, or at least 80/90% to the record which is kinda what you would expect. I don't really know how else to measure if he's doing a good job other than if he plays the parts right or does something different that's equally good (or bad).

No musician is going to be liked by everyone, and Frank certainly isn't loved by all. 

 

It’s not necessarily trouble, he is doing a job, and an ok one, he really is. He’s not as quick over the toms or as intricate (Brain drums as well with his feet as he does with his hands, his pedal work is fantastic) 

Of course he is keeping time in a live setting, but he is not playing the parts ‘effortlessly’ the same as Matt was not doing so with Stevens parts.

 

Frank imo is prob like a Matt Sorum level, decent.

But Brain could probably fill in for most bands. I would also take Matt back in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

 

[Caught_in_a_Coma]

6 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I think it just resonates with Axl's more fluid idea of what a band is - more like a project and an extended "family" than a "band" as a unit in the conventional sense. He has had this concept at least since the AFD lineup started falling apart. For example, initially Matt was going to be the studio drummer for UYI and Steven was going on tour when he got his act together (and that was an idea Slash agreed with because he wanted the albums done). Then Izzy could write with the band and Gilby would be the touring guitar player, then the same pattern with Paul Tobias and Gilby (and that was one of the points of contention between Axl and Slash).

So, in Axl's mind there are the "owners" of the band and then this big family where there can be a studio drummer and a (mostly) touring drummer, and both can be equally members of the "GN'R fam".

I really like this perspective.  I wish Izzy was still with the band in this sense; more on the writing and recording side, less on the touring side.

[Its Tino]

5 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

He was fine on the 2008 version of the album I thought

Yeah but every song Frank played on CD (5 total), Brain also played on, besides Chinese Democracy, which was written by Freese .

[DSTK]

5 hours ago, HollyWoodRose84 said:

You barely notice a keyboard player.

 

 

You always notice a drummer.

Take dizzy and Melissa out, and you wouldn't notice the difference? Estranged,NR,Perhaps, Civil war, Paradise,Absurd etc ...really ? 

Frank is a good drummer, touring drummer or not..he's here to stay 

8 minutes ago, silkchild said:

It’s not necessarily trouble, he is doing a job, and an ok one, he really is. He’s not as quick over the toms or as intricate (Brain drums as well with his feet as he does with his hands, his pedal work is fantastic) 

Of course he is keeping time in a live setting, but he is not playing the parts ‘effortlessly’ the same as Matt was not doing so with Stevens parts.

 

Frank imo is prob like a Matt Sorum level, decent.

But Brain could probably fill in for most bands. I would also take Matt back in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

 

Matt 😂 he's the last man I'd call, 2nd last Adler