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Mass Shooting at Walmart in El Paso

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4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

It's too simple. It is inane. No one is arguing that it isn't people that do the killing. That it is dogs that do it. Or wandering, sentient machine guns. But fact is that guns make it easier for people to kill people. Many of the guns that are being used in gun violence has been specifically designed for the purpose of hurting other people. If we remove guns there will be less gun violence. We know this because it is self-evident, but also from comparative studies on other countries, and from looking at gun violence statistics from countries that have made guns less accessible.

Then there is this argument floating about that if we remove the guns people will just kill each other by other methods, like stones and sticks and hand grenades. But that doesn't make sense. The amount of violence isn't fixed so that when you reduce gun violence, knife violence will increase to magically fill the quota. If the right-wing nutjob from yesterday didn't have his AK-47, much less people would have been killed or wounded. You can argue that maybe he could have made enough bombs to cause the same amount of damage, but most nutjobs aren't able to do that. They will fail. And people will not have their lives ripped apart.

There is also the argument that the problem would be solved if improved background checks were enforced to prevent nutjobs having guns. It would help, sure, but it wouldn't solve the issue. How do you figure if someone shouldn't own a gun if they don't have a police record? And how do you figure that someone's mental problems will increase over the years causing them to commit mass murders five years after the gun purchase? 

Then people try to argue that the problem won't be solved until we fix the issue of mental problems. Well, no country has fixed that issue yet USA is the only country with daily mass murders with guns. Don't get me wrong, we should definitely do more to help the mentally ill (and not only by trying to prevent them from getting their hands on weapons), and USA is horrible in that regards, but now we are talking about things that take a lot of time to fix. And it is unlikely that we will ever get to a point where we can screen the entire population to identify people who are on the verge of losing their minds to the point where they will commit mass murder. It is simply unrealistic.

But there is a prevalent mental illness in USA that affects the entire society. And symptoms of this collective illness are that people should have guns to defend themselves if the country is invaded (by whom, Guatamalans? Canadians?), that people should have guns to defend themselves against the government (heh, what?), that people should have guns to defend themselves against home intruders (seen too much movies, now?). And the name of this mental illness is the culture of fear. A delusion fed by a hysteric media who keep on exaggerating the probabilities of something bad happening making people think it makes sense to have a gun just in case (while most acts of gun violence is one family member turning the gun on another, something the media underreports; the result being that acquiring that gun for home defense is the first step towards domestic horror), and by evil organizations like NRA who spread the nonsense that more guns is the solution, by a president who does all he can to continue to foster the idea that it is Americas against the rest and that foreigners are amassing at the border just wanting to come in and rape America, by a failing educational system that aren't able to correct all these misconceptions, and by a militarized police and an army that make people think that guns are normal and okay.

But fixing all this takes a lot of time. So basically USA is screwed. Unless they actually go for the low-hanging fruits of quick-fixing the issue by reducing the amount of guns. Not necessarily a perfect fix, but something we see everywhere else helps. Start with amnesties for handing in illegal guns (maybe even pay for each gun handed in), t get guns off the streets. Stop selling anything but weapons designed for hunting, and no guns with large magazines, no guns that can be turned into automatic action. Stop selling to people who haven't got a hunting permit. Limit the amount of guns one is allowed to own. Do check up on gun owners to verify they store the guns safely (gun cabinets with locks, bullets stored separately).

There will be a lot of huffing and puffing from people who feel, justly, that they are innocent victims of the actions of other people, but sorry, that is the consequences of all the gun violence. When USA as a society has demonstrated they can handle guns safely, then the regulations may be loosened. 

But of course this won't happen. Because most Americans don't really care enough about the issue until they are victims themselves. Because they are lost in this fog of the culture of fear. They care just so far as to say thoughts and prayers and then it is forgotten. 

What a fucking hopeless country.

Well, this country was started as an armed rebellion, and the men who started that rebellion literally told the people to rise up and kill their own government if the government ever got out of hand, and then wrote some of the most liberal weapons laws ever into the constitution. So that's the start. But now, the real reason a lot of people won't give up their guns in this country is because they hate and don't trust the establishment that runs this country. This is not a united country and many people feel their own government is against them. Personally, I don't blame them on that. I honestly think this country is going to eat itself and Balkanize sometime in the next century. 

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In 1776, there was this group of people that tried to get us to surrender our weapons..................

 

 

We shot them. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Padme said:

Chicago was a lot more violent during the days of Al Capone

He is part of the problem. So to some degree it is his fault

You act like mass shootings are something new.  There were dozens under Obama.  Just a few that come to mind are the Colorado movie theatre mass shooting, the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Sandy Hook school shooting and Virginia tech mass shooting.  These all happened under Obama's watch.  Were any of those Obama's fault?  Was Obama part of the problem?  Obama had 8 years to fix the problem and nothing changed but you want to put blame on Trump?  

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16 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

You act like mass shootings are something new.  There were dozens under Obama.  Just a few that come to mind are the Colorado movie theatre mass shooting, the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Sandy Hook school shooting and Virginia tech mass shooting.  These all happened under Obama's watch.  Were any of those Obama's fault?  Was Obama part of the problem?  Obama had 8 years to fix the problem and nothing changed but you want to put blame on Trump?  

Obama made multiple attempts to enact common sense gun laws and all were blocked by the Republican Congress. 

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The people of the United States will NEVER surrender or voluntarily relinquish their weapons. Ever. That isn’t ever going to happen, so all the talk about removing, banning, taking guns because it will mean less gun crime is ridiculous. Placing the blame anywhere else but the person that pulled the trigger is even more ridiculous. The second is entrenched in this country. 

If you can’t figure out how to lead a country without making them surrender their weapons then you probably aren’t the one that should be leading the country. 

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1 minute ago, Download said:

The people of the United States will NEVER surrender or voluntarily relinquish their weapons. Ever. That isn’t ever going to happen, so all the talk about removing, banning, taking guns because it will mean less gun crime is ridiculous. Placing the blame anywhere else but the person that pulled the trigger is even more ridiculous. The second is entrenched in this country. 

If you can’t figure out how to lead a country without making them surrender their weapons then you probably aren’t the one that should be leading the country. 

No one is not blaming the murderers. But that doesn't mean one shouldn't organise society in a way that would reduce gun violence. 

And every society develops. The fact that USA still is somewhat primitive in regards to guns, and haven't developed to a state where the vast majority of citizens don't see the point in owning instruments for violence, doesn't mean it won't. Every other developed nation has. 

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Another point: USA already have various restrictions on the right to own weapons. Like machine guns and short-barreled shotguns. So it is not like further restrictions, like limiting what guns are legal and amount of guns one can have, would be such a huge thing. 

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15 minutes ago, Download said:

The people of the United States will NEVER surrender or voluntarily relinquish their weapons. Ever. That isn’t ever going to happen, so all the talk about removing, banning, taking guns because it will mean less gun crime is ridiculous. Placing the blame anywhere else but the person that pulled the trigger is even more ridiculous. The second is entrenched in this country. 

If you can’t figure out how to lead a country without making them surrender their weapons then you probably aren’t the one that should be leading the country. 

Nobody is trying to take your guns. Some of the common sense measures that Obama tried to implement included stopping people with a history of mental illness and those on terrorist watch lists from buying guns. Congress apparently thought this was a bad idea. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No one is not blaming the murderers. But that doesn't mean one shouldn't organise society in a way that would reduce gun violence. 

And every society develops. The fact that USA still is somewhat primitive in regards to guns, and haven't developed to a state where the vast majority of citizens don't see the point in owning instruments for violence, doesn't mean it won't. Every other developed nation has. 

You see America as primitive when it comes to guns but that’s the way I see every other nation with strict gun laws. Go down to Texas and start knocking on doors demanding guns and see exactly how primitive you find it to be 😂

im not saying your thoughts and feels about civilized society, developed nations, and gun laws are wrong, I’m just saying when you talk about removing guns from gun owners in the United States of America, you almost talk as though you’re above us and looking down. I take it you’ve been to these developed nations with strict gun laws and now you’re back, and enlightened, and you know what’s best for everyone.

One way to get through to Americans is to tell them you’re smarter and know what’s best for them. 

And of course the other way is to bypass the whole persuasion thing and go straight to force. 

Good luck with both :) 

 

Edited by Download

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15 minutes ago, Download said:

You see America as primitive when it comes to guns but that’s the way I see every other nation with strict gun laws. 

The most advanced society is surely the one with less gun violence. Such states have developed beyond the point where citizens feel the need to own guns for self-defense. Such states have succeeded at developing institutions that secure the lives of citizens and allow they to live their lives without fear. 

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18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The most advanced society is surely the one with less gun violence. Such states have developed beyond the point where citizens feel the need to own guns for self-defense. Such states have succeeded at developing institutions that secure the lives of citizens and allow they to live their lives without fear. 

Yeah I love the way that an argument for not taking people’s guns is basically that if you try we’ll fucking shoot you. :lol: I guess that self awareness isn’t some people’s strong suit eh? :lol: 

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9 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Yeah I love the way that an argument for not taking people’s guns is basically that if you try we’ll fucking shoot you. :lol: I guess that self awareness isn’t some people’s strong suit eh? :lol: 

I’ve got two AR-15’s, 1 AR-10, a 303 British, and an M1 Garand. 

Do I get to keep those? 

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To clarify, I love playing with guns. Guns are a lot of fun and while they’re legal I’m happy to partake. I just don’t think that loonies should be able to buy them. 

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4 minutes ago, Download said:

I’ve got two AR-15’s, 1 AR-10, a 303 British, and an M1 Garand. 

Do I get to keep those? 

To clarify I’m not an anti gun Nazi. :lol: 

vzCaiCl.jpg

The AR 15 is just out of shot. The silencer on the 9mm took a year to get and needed a long application process. 

This photo was taken in San Antonio Texas by the way. 

I just think that common sense gun laws shouldn’t be a dirty word. :shrugs: 

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41 minutes ago, Dazey said:

To clarify I’m not an anti gun Nazi. :lol: 

vzCaiCl.jpg

The AR 15 is just out of shot. The silencer on the 9mm took a year to get and needed a long application process. 

This photo was taken in San Antonio Texas by the way. 

I just think that common sense gun laws shouldn’t be a dirty word. :shrugs: 

Dude...What on earth ? 🙈

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3 hours ago, Swampfox said:

You act like mass shootings are something new.  There were dozens under Obama.  Just a few that come to mind are the Colorado movie theatre mass shooting, the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Sandy Hook school shooting and Virginia tech mass shooting.  These all happened under Obama's watch.  Were any of those Obama's fault?  Was Obama part of the problem?  Obama had 8 years to fix the problem and nothing changed but you want to put blame on Trump?  

The difference is that Obama wanted gun control. Republicans in Congress didn't.

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12 hours ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

249 mass shootings this year. But don't worry, it is only August. 

250. America doesn't disappoint. 

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1 hour ago, Download said:

 a 303 British

 

 

Like a SMLE Mark III or No. 4 rifle? 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Swampfox said:

You act like mass shootings are something new.  There were dozens under Obama.  Just a few that come to mind are the Colorado movie theatre mass shooting, the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Sandy Hook school shooting and Virginia tech mass shooting.  These all happened under Obama's watch.  Were any of those Obama's fault?  Was Obama part of the problem?  Obama had 8 years to fix the problem and nothing changed but you want to put blame on Trump?  

Not the President, Congress has the power to pass legislation. A bill is introduced, if pass in the House it goes to the Senate to be passed. If in introduced and passed in the Senate it goes to the House to be passed. The president signs into law and the Supreme Court will judge if law is constitutional or not. 

 

Republicans had the Senate and House in their control under Obama, that is why nothing was done after Sandy Hook. If dead children isn't enough to knock some senses in Republicans, nothing will. 

Edited by Georgy Zhukov

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17 minutes ago, Padme said:

The difference is that Obama wanted gun control. Republicans in Congress didn't.

Obama wanted gun control, there were mass shootings.  Trump wants America to keep its guns, there are mass shootings.  Again please explain how any of what happened is Trump's fault.  It's nobody's fault but the shooter.

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1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

Obama wanted gun control, there were mass shootings.  Trump wants America to keep its guns, there are mass shootings.  Again please explain how any of what happened is Trump's fault.  It's nobody's fault but the shooter.

Is anyone saying it isn't the shooter's fault? Is anyone here saying he should go free?

But there are always reasons for why someone does something, links further back in the chain of cause and effect. And that's what we are talking about now, because we want to prevent the next mass murder. And one of these chain links is the citizens of USA who doesn't vote for politicians who stand on a platform of limiting gun violence through more sensible regulation. Again, only the shooter is at fault for the crimes he did; but the electorate of USA is at fault for not doing more to prevent such atrocities from happening, including introducing common sense gun regulation.

 

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58 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Obama wanted gun control, there were mass shootings.  Trump wants America to keep its guns, there are mass shootings.  Again please explain how any of what happened is Trump's fault.  It's nobody's fault but the shooter.

You said it yourself. Trump wants America to keep their guns. Well not everyone can keep their guns. People with mental illness should not have access to guns. Neither violent groups like gang members or neo nazis. The control shouldn't be limited to guns stores or guns shows. There is also the internet. Today a lot of people buy all kind of stuff online. Trump should persuade members of Congress to come up with legislation. He never did that. And I'm afraid he won't

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Can any pro guns person name me one developed country in the world where gun violence has exploded after guns were banned? Because surely that must be the case when you are no longer able to defend yourself.

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I seen documentary about parents that to teach shoot his little kids too. Someone looks it ❓

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6 minutes ago, Ratam said:

I seen documentary about parents that to teach shoot his little kids too. Someone looks it ❓

 

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