Same Sex Marriage Legal in all US States

[DieselDaisy]

That is what I am getting at really: it is all about manners. I was taught to never talk about money, never talk badly about women and never criticise someone's religion. It is about basic decency.

Whatever is "decent" to you should never be a barrier to me criticising something that is so deservedly of being criticised as organized religion. It is as simple as that. Don't criticise me for not following your particular rules of what is decent and in adherence with decorum. I couldn't care less. You are inept at understanding that you are discussing with people on a global scene who don't share to your particular upbringing and narrow traditions for what is right manners. To me, it is more important to advocate rationalism than to avoid stepping on some grossly sensitive religious toes that are affronted because they are not accustomed to people actually pointing out that what they believe in haven't got the slightest supportive evidence. To me, according to my background and tradition, it is a lack of decorum to not point out what is obviously and patently nonsense. You act like everyone comes form your own society, has the same background, have been faced with the same circumstances, are as steeped in that nostalgic and pathetic "British" culture as you are. And that is another fallacy. Bingo!

I forgot one thing also that annoys me about atheists: stating the subjective as if it is fact.

[magisme]

Jesus Christ. Please tell me this isn't going to happen.

[Lithium]

Never said it shouldn't be, but I never particularly felt the urge to SHOUT about it at any possible opportunity. It is about decorum, as I said.

You said you were taught to never criticize religion.

[DieselDaisy]

Decorum - as I said. If you want to dismantle about theology and the history of religion there are certainly avenues but there is a sense of ''Macdonalds atheists''. Often it is no more advanced than, ''the pope bums children''. Lazy atheism.

[SoulMonster]

Jesus Christ. Please tell me this isn't going to happen.

It has already happened. But don't worry, buddy, it is not compulsory.

[magisme]

Jesus Christ. Please tell me this isn't going to happen.

It has already happened. But don't worry, buddy, it is not compulsory.

It certainly seems like a compulsion for you.

[SoulMonster]

Decorum - as I said. If you want to dismantle about theology and the history of religion there are certainly avenues but there is a sense of ''Macdonalds atheists''. Often it is no more advanced than, ''the pope bums children''. Lazy atheism.

Atheism doesn't require any sophistication. It is not really rocket science to realize that there are no good reasons to believe gods exist and that it is all just inherited superstition. You can't really blame atheists for not dressing up their atheism in convoluted and unnecesarrily complicated arguments.

As for ateists being atheists because "the pope bums children", that is just bollocks. People detest the Catholic church because of, among other, its history with child molestation and how they handled it, but detesting the Catholic Church and not having a personal belief in religion, is simply not perfectly overlapping things. I think most atheists realize that whether the Catholic Church has been an organization that has protected pederats is completely irrelevant to whether gods exist.

[classicrawker]

Atheists are obsessed with Christianity and Catholicism. Basically, they are not proper atheists but merely anti-Christian. You can go up to an atheist and mention a religion that does not exist in the Judaeo-Christian trinity and they will go, ''duhh'' (adopts dumb Lithium american wannabe speak) ''the pope is bad. He bums children. The Bible is nonsense. Muslims are suicide bombers''. This is the mentality of the group you are dealing with here. You may as well be speaking to a bucket of shite by mentioning the fact that Buddhism has nearly half a billion adherents who do not follow a Judaeo-christian faith!

Basically atheists is today's wankers. It is just a case of, ''look at me. I am a SHOUTY PERSON. I HATE THE POPE. I'M A COCK. LOOK AT HOW MODERN I AM. LOOK AT HOW DATED YOU ARE. I AM SHOUTY SHOUTY SHOUTY''. It lacks decorum, is mean spirited and un gentleman like. There is actually something very un-British about atheism somehow - it is hard to define.

This is total nonsense and a generalization. I am an atheist and my wife is a devout Catholic. I support her practicing her faith completely as long as she does not force it on me which she doesn't. She goes to church faithfully and never harasses me to attend with her.

I stopped going to church when I was 16 for many reasons and have my own issues with the Catholic religion way before the child molestation tragedy happened.

If you think that most atheists are obsessed with and hate the Catholic church because of the recent child molestation issue you have no clue why someone is an atheist.

I also find most people who are atheist to be very private about their beliefs and only engage in conversation when challenged by someone of faith.

I don't spend 1 second every day thinking about religion and could care less what your beliefs are as long as you don't try to impose them on me, then we have a problem.

Personally I refuse to discuss religion with a person of faith because it only causes hard feelings and neither of us will ever change our beliefs.

Edited July 1, 2015 by classicrawker

[magisme]

There's quite a bit to what cr is saying, I think. Sometimes I've generalized about atheists, but it's probably more that, around religion, the ones who do the most shouting are the ones least worth listening to, on both sides.

[DieselDaisy]

Atheists are obsessed with Christianity and Catholicism. Basically, they are not proper atheists but merely anti-Christian. You can go up to an atheist and mention a religion that does not exist in the Judaeo-Christian trinity and they will go, ''duhh'' (adopts dumb Lithium american wannabe speak) ''the pope is bad. He bums children. The Bible is nonsense. Muslims are suicide bombers''. This is the mentality of the group you are dealing with here. You may as well be speaking to a bucket of shite by mentioning the fact that Buddhism has nearly half a billion adherents who do not follow a Judaeo-christian faith!

Basically atheists is today's wankers. It is just a case of, ''look at me. I am a SHOUTY PERSON. I HATE THE POPE. I'M A COCK. LOOK AT HOW MODERN I AM. LOOK AT HOW DATED YOU ARE. I AM SHOUTY SHOUTY SHOUTY''. It lacks decorum, is mean spirited and un gentleman like. There is actually something very un-British about atheism somehow - it is hard to define.

This is total nonsense and a generalization. I am an atheist and my wife is a devout Catholic. I support her practicing her faith completely as long as she does not force it on me which she doesn't. She goes to church faithfully and never harasses me to attend with her.

I stopped going to church when I was 16 for many reasons and have my own issues with the Catholic religion way before the child molestation tragedy happened.

If you think that most atheists are obsessed with and hate the Catholic church because of the recent child molestation issue you have no clue why someone is an atheist.

I also find most people who are atheist to be very private about their beliefs and only engage in conversation when challenged by someone of faith.

I don't spend 1 second every day thinking about religion and could care less what your beliefs are as long as you don't try to impose them on me, then we have a problem.

Personally I refuse to discuss religion with a person of faith because it only causes hard feelings and neither of us will ever change our beliefs.

All fair enough. I was alluding to a particular brand of atheist - not naming names but it is not hard to guess who.

[Lithium]

Decorum - as I said. If you want to dismantle about theology and the history of religion there are certainly avenues but there is a sense of ''Macdonalds atheists''.

Religion shouldn't be criticized because of decorum. That makes sense.

[OmarBradley]

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

Edited July 2, 2015 by OmarBradley

[Graeme]

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

Well, how many of the people who contribute to this board come from places where "Eastern" religions are regularly practised? It would make sense that if atheists are going to criticise religion then it would be the aspects of religion that impact upon their daily lives. I'm fairly sure the victims of fundamentalist Buddhist attacks in Southeast Asia (it does happen) would criticise Buddhist doctrine if they were atheist. Likewise with Atheist Indians who believe that the caste system is unjust. It's just we don't tend to have many people from that part of the world posting on here.

Also, there tends to be a general trend between socioeconomic development and religious adherence/fundamentalism, many "Eastern" countries aren't that highly developed so a strong secularist voice possibly hasn't come to the surface in some of them.

[SoulMonster]

I also find most people who are atheist to be very private about their beliefs and only engage in conversation when challenged by someone of faith.

This is my experience, too. Which is hardly surprising considering that I come from a society where the majority are atheists.

I fear that Diesel Daisy is generalizing from his experiences with atheists that he meets in various arenas of discussion, like here, which would naturally be a type of atheists interested in discussing religion, something most atheists probably aren't. I mean, if you only go to arenas where people shout their opinions, then surely you could be left thinking that all atheists are of the "shouty shouty" kind.

[SoulMonster]

In addition to what Omar and Graeme says, here in western Europe we risk very little from being openly atheists. It's not like we'd risk being stabbed to death in the streets if we were writing blogs about atheism (Indonesia?), would risk capital punishment if we denounced godly existence (many muslim countries), or wouldn't have a chance of becoming the nation's president (USA) if we voiced the statement that gods don't exist. At the most we risk some friendly bantering and the occasional ridiculous comparison with mass murderers. So yeah, it is natural that the strongest atheistic voices would come from our socities.

[Bono]

The preachy athiests are far worse than the preachy religious folks. At their core the ones preaching religion even if wrong are at least trying to share with others. The preachy athiests have nothing in mind other than to rip something from people. Even those who are good people of faith, the preachy athiest would love nothing more than to rip that faith from them, just so they can thump their chests and be right. Both are awful types of people but the preachy athiests disgust me more.

[SoulMonster]

I hear the term "preachy atheists" occassionally, but is that really a thing? Outside of dedicated arenas of discussion where the topic is religion, do atheists preach about their lack of belief in gods? Do they walk door-to-door preaching about their lack of beliefs? Hand of pamphlets? Do they have their own tv channels where they spread their atheism? Do they travel to faraway places to seek out indigenious groups of theists to convert to atheism? Do they have radio channels? Do they war on believers?

I believe people look at the behaviour of atheists in arenas like this, a discussion board with a thread on the topic of religion, and then, based on those are vocal about atheism, generalize and extrapolate to believe all atheists are like that all the time. It's a failure of not applying context. It's a failure of hasty generalization. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have discussed atheism outside of these dedicated places. Partly because of what rawker talked about, I simply don't want to antagonize people who haven't sought out a discussing where they might be confronted with dissenting and possibly uncomfortable opinions, partly because it is a sort-of dreary topic that doesn't really lend itself to most everyday social settings, and partly because in my life most peope are atheists and it is a trivial thing not worth discussing.

Edited July 2, 2015 by SoulMonster

[Dazey]

The preachy athiests are far worse than the preachy religious folks. At their core the ones preaching religion even if wrong are at least trying to share with others. The preachy athiests have nothing in mind other than to rip something from people. Even those who are good people of faith, the preachy athiest would love nothing more than to rip that faith from them, just so they can thump their chests and be right. Both are awful types of people but the preachy athiests disgust me more.

Yeah, can totally see your point there.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Even without religion, human beings will find different ways to kill each other.

[estrangedtwat]

Seems like everyone online is bending over backwards to congratulate themselves for being such amazing forward-thinking individuals that believe in true love. It kinda reminds me of that ice bucket nonsense last summer which was much more about attention than an actual good cause.

I can honestly say it makes zero difference to me whatsoever if gay marriage is legal or not. But if I actually say that I really don't give a shit either way, I guess I'd be branded a homophobe. Not caring doesn't equal being a homophobe.

[DieselDaisy]

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

Well, how many of the people who contribute to this board come from places where "Eastern" religions are regularly practised? It would make sense that if atheists are going to criticise religion then it would be the aspects of religion that impact upon their daily lives. I'm fairly sure the victims of fundamentalist Buddhist attacks in Southeast Asia (it does happen) would criticise Buddhist doctrine if they were atheist. Likewise with Atheist Indians who believe that the caste system is unjust. It's just we don't tend to have many people from that part of the world posting on here.

Also, there tends to be a general trend between socioeconomic development and religious adherence/fundamentalism, many "Eastern" countries aren't that highly developed so a strong secularist voice possibly hasn't come to the surface in some of them.

I do not agree. Isn't atheism holistic? Since atheists claim to be using 'reason' and 'fact' to criticise religion, yet all their arguments pertain to Christian or Islam, it is a fair point to mention the fact that there are at least 2 billion religious adherents for whom those same arguments just do not apply. Heck, even within Christianity itself, most of their arguments being anti-Catholic, they simply do not apply to around 47% of Christians! Also, is your argument, of criticising a religion that impacts ''upon their daily lives'' not rendered increasingly irrelevant through multiculturalism.

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

You can be an atheist and practice Hinduism!! Mention this to one of our less intellectually inclined atheists and they instantly turn into Hal the computer.

[Dazey]

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

Well, how many of the people who contribute to this board come from places where "Eastern" religions are regularly practised? It would make sense that if atheists are going to criticise religion then it would be the aspects of religion that impact upon their daily lives. I'm fairly sure the victims of fundamentalist Buddhist attacks in Southeast Asia (it does happen) would criticise Buddhist doctrine if they were atheist. Likewise with Atheist Indians who believe that the caste system is unjust. It's just we don't tend to have many people from that part of the world posting on here.

Also, there tends to be a general trend between socioeconomic development and religious adherence/fundamentalism, many "Eastern" countries aren't that highly developed so a strong secularist voice possibly hasn't come to the surface in some of them.

I do not agree. Isn't atheism holistic? Since atheists claim to be using 'reason' and 'fact' to criticise religion, yet all their arguments pertain to Christian or Islam, it is a fair point to mention the fact that there are at least 2 billion religious adherents for whom those same arguments just do not apply. Heck, even within Christianity itself, most of their arguments being anti-Catholic, they simply do not apply to around 47% of Christians! Also, is your argument, of criticising a religion that impacts ''upon their daily lives'' not rendered increasingly irrelevant through multiculturalism.

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

You can be an atheist and practice Hinduism!! Mention this to one of our less intellectually inclined atheists and they instantly turn into Hal the computer.

Well atheism would be related to theistic beliefs only by definition would it not?

[DieselDaisy]

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

Well, how many of the people who contribute to this board come from places where "Eastern" religions are regularly practised? It would make sense that if atheists are going to criticise religion then it would be the aspects of religion that impact upon their daily lives. I'm fairly sure the victims of fundamentalist Buddhist attacks in Southeast Asia (it does happen) would criticise Buddhist doctrine if they were atheist. Likewise with Atheist Indians who believe that the caste system is unjust. It's just we don't tend to have many people from that part of the world posting on here.

Also, there tends to be a general trend between socioeconomic development and religious adherence/fundamentalism, many "Eastern" countries aren't that highly developed so a strong secularist voice possibly hasn't come to the surface in some of them.

I do not agree. Isn't atheism holistic? Since atheists claim to be using 'reason' and 'fact' to criticise religion, yet all their arguments pertain to Christian or Islam, it is a fair point to mention the fact that there are at least 2 billion religious adherents for whom those same arguments just do not apply. Heck, even within Christianity itself, most of their arguments being anti-Catholic, they simply do not apply to around 47% of Christians! Also, is your argument, of criticising a religion that impacts ''upon their daily lives'' not rendered increasingly irrelevant through multiculturalism.

Diesel, I don't know that it's laziness that compels most atheists/antitheists to primarily focus on Judaism-Christianity-Islam. Eastern religions tend to be more philosophical and less theistic, often times bordering between religion and philosophy. I'm no scholar, and no doubt you know more than I do about Buddhism, Hindiusm, etc., but it seems to me that there's a lot less to criticize in them.

EDIT: Although at the root of it, I suppose that's essentially what you're saying. That atheists are more so, anti-Western religion?

You can be an atheist and practice Hinduism!! Mention this to one of our less intellectually inclined atheists and they instantly turn into Hal the computer.

Well atheism would be related to theistic beliefs only by definition would it not?

They are never that strict though in practice. Usually atheism equates anti-religion.

[Len Cnut]

Decorum - as I said. If you want to dismantle about theology and the history of religion there are certainly avenues but there is a sense of ''Macdonalds atheists''.

Religion shouldn't be criticized because of decorum. That makes sense.

Perhaps the idea is that religion should be critised but with an eye on a certain decorum? i.e. instead of shouting people down and being arrogant and insulting and pointlessly rude (which just results in getting a combative response) instead you critique something cooly, calmly and rationally, so you actually get listened to instead of just winding people up. If you do not respond to these things with a sense of decorum are you not basically just being what you criticised in people of religion, i.e. being backward, uncivilised, pig-headed and sort of contrary to the fundamental principles of what ideas like atheism...which is reason. You can't really have reason without decorum. I mean you don't reason with someone by beating them over the head or shouting them down.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Len B'stard

[SoulMonster]

Since atheists claim to be using 'reason' and 'fact' to criticise religion, yet all their arguments pertain to Christian or Islam,

I hate Christian, he's such an asshole.

Anyway, I think you are again extrapolating from very little experience, or have just been very unlucky with the atheists you have met in your life. Or perhaps it is you who misunderstand and interpret anti-christian arguments as meant to be anti-theism arguments?