RICHARD FORTUS Says 'Everyone Is Excited' About Possibility Of New Album

[Blackstar]

From the series of events, it seems that the Paul Tobias story was before Zakk Wylde was brought in (and somewhere in the meantime, Izzy came back briefly, while Slash was in his solo tour). When it didn't work out with Zakk, Axl was the rhythm guitarist in rehearsals until Slash left. It looks like Axl backed down in regards to Tobias for Slash's sake.

Then, after Slash quit, Tobias was back in and there was the incident which led to Sorum being fired.

The new guys Axl hired also had some problems with Tobias, at least in the beginning:

"Another source says there's tension between [Tommy and Paul Huge] because Huge 'has the whole Guns attitude but he's never toured.'" (Spin, 07/99)

"There were guys who'd never ever made a record putting out their ideas. At first, those of us who'd actually made records thought their ideas sucked, but there were also some good ones. [...] We each had to give reasons for liking or disliking something – you couldn’t just be bull-headed. We had to function as a democracy or we’d end up hating each other. Collaborating was good for that. I think every one of us learned a lot from it." (Tommy, Bass Player, 04/09)

Edited July 27, 2017 by Blackstar

[RONIN]

9 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

From the series of events, it seems that the Paul Tobias story was before Zakk Wylde was brought in (and somewhere in the meantime, Izzy came back briefly, while Slash was in his solo tour). When it didn't work out with Zakk, Axl was the rhythm guitarist in rehearsals until Slash left. It looks like Axl backed down in regards to Tobias for Slash's sake.

Then, after Slash quit, Tobias was back in and there was the incident which led to Sorum being fired.

 

My guess is Tobias starts hanging around Axl in '94 but doesn't seem to have a defined role in the band until '96. From Marc Canter's many musings on this topic, he seems to essentially conclude that it was the Tobias issue that ultimately broke the relationship between Axl and Slash. That if they could have worked the rhythm guitarist issue out, there may have been a possibility for Slash and Duff to push through Axl's NIN obsession and even stomached getting demoted to hired hands with the new contracts in '96. 

That sort of vibes with Slash's book where he states he would have hung through an industrial album if there was even simply mutual respect between him and Axl (which I"m assuming means Axl firing Tobias for the sake of keeping Slash happy). 

Edited July 27, 2017 by RONIN

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Let me point out a few more things:

- You imply that Gilby was sacked to make room for Paul. I have never heard this before. Firstly, he wasn't sacked as much as not given a new contract. Axl claims it was because he couldn't write with Gilby. Slash and Duff have never insinuated it was because Axl wanted Paul in. Secondly, Gilby left the band in 1994, Paul was introduced as a possible new band member in 1996. So the tiing doesn't really fit (he did play at Sympathy in 1994, though). Anyway, I am not saying you are wrong, just that I would like some sources foro this assertion.

Axl also said already back in 1992, after Gilby had been hired, that they weren't sure whether they wanted to write with Gilby, just that they wanted to tour with him¹. So when the touring was over Gilby's contract wasn't renewed and Axl started to look for someone who could help in the writing process. Enter Paul.

So I don't think Gilby was sacked to make room for Paul. Axl didn't renew his contract because Axl thought he had served his mission.

Of course, this is a source of discontent between Axl and Slash, too. Slash wanted Gilby in the band, he probably never saw any difference between "writing lineup" and "touring lineup". Things were never that complicated with Slash. To him, it was one Guns N' Roses: a bunch of guys who made music and toured. To Slash, Gilby's mission was to be a full band member not just a hired hand to help them out on short notice when Izzy quit ².

Slash also became a good friend of Gilby. So although he swallowed his pride reharding what went down with Gilby, and didn't really criticise this decision publicly, I think this event helped to strengthen resentments that would eventually force Slash to leave the band.

There is also another side to this story. Slash said in 1995 that prior to Gilby leaving the band, Axl called Slash to discuss the situation, and from what Slash said, they agreed to fire Gilby (!) ³.

-------------------

1. Axl: We don’t know if we’re gonna be writing with Gilby or somebody else. We know we want to play with Gilby, but we’re not sure about the writing [Hit Parader, 1992]

2. Slash: Now [Gilby]'s a part of Guns N' Roses ["I, Axl" Del James, RIP Magazine - 1992]

3. Slash: I was complaining [about Gilby] and then Axl called me that same night and said he didn't want to work with Gilby anymore for a lot of different reasons. In a way I sort of went along with it, at least Axl thought I was going along with it because I had my own complaints from that night on rehearsal. This was about a year ago. [...] [The firing] was never etched in stone, but it was etched in Axl's mind. I knew there was no argument. Axl probably thought I was totally behind it. I went to talk to Gilby because I didn't want him to hear anything on the street. I told him what was going on, and everything was in a state of flux for a while [Slash - Welcome to the Snakepit, Metal Edge Magazine, April 1995]

[Blackstar]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

My guess is Tobias starts hanging around Axl in '94 but doesn't seem to have a defined role in the band until '96. From Marc Canter's many musings on this topic, he seems to essentially conclude that it was the Tobias issue that ultimately broke the relationship between Axl and Slash. That if they could have worked the rhythm guitarist issue out, there may have been a possibility for Slash and Duff to push through Axl's NIN obsession and even stomached getting demoted to hired hands with the new contracts in '96. 

That sort of vibes with Slash's biography where he states he would have hung through an industrial album if there was even simply mutual respect between him and Axl (which I"m assuming means Axl firing Tobias for the sake of keeping Slash happy). 

From the 1996 interviews though it doesn't look like there was an "industrial issue" or an issue with Tobias (who might have been around, but in the shadow). The only issue was the new contract (which, btw, judging from Duff's words in regards to the events which led to Matt's firing, was a new partnership with Axl being the partner who owned the name, it didn't make Slash and Duff employees, although their position would be demoted de facto). What Slash, Duff and Matt had said in those interviews in a way corroborates Axl's version about that period (that he was going for a traditional hard rock album).

ADDITION: Probably what Marc Canter meant was that the Tobias issue in 94 broke the glass and eventually led to the breakup despite any efforts to repair it. After that, Slash didn't want to make any more compromises, so he did the Snakepit album. Axl was shaken by that and, on one hand, he made the move with the name to secure that he would be the one in control, but, on the other, he backed down in regards to Tobias and to the musical direction, in an effort to keep, as he thought, Slash happy; but it was too late because Slash was psychologically out since 94 and he couldn't go on.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Blackstar

[SoulMonster]

45 minutes ago, RONIN said:

[Axl] he also fired Gilby without consulting Duff and Slash which they were really pissed about.

The more I read about this, the more clear to me it becomes that this is completely wrong.

- Axl discussed not renewing Gilby's contract with Slash, and left that conversation thinking that Slash agreed with him.

- Slash was the one who told Gilby he would not be in the band anymore, not Axl.

- After Slash having talked to Gilby, Gilby called Axl and then called Duff, and this "cemented the issue", implying that all three agreed with the decision.

All of this is from Slash interviews in 1995. Of course, in his biography, Slash claims that "Axl fired Gilby without consulting anyone" (!!).

[Blackstar]

24 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Of course, this is a source of discontent between Axl and Slash, too. Slash wanted Gilby in the band, he probably never saw any difference between "writing lineup" and "touring lineup". Things were never that complicated with Slash. To him, it was one Guns N' Roses: a bunch of guys who made music and toured. To Slash, Gilby's mission was to be a full band member not just a hired hand to help them out on short notice when Izzy quit ².

...

1. Axl: We don’t know if we’re gonna be writing with Gilby or somebody else. We know we want to play with Gilby, but we’re not sure about the writing [Hit Parader, 1992]

Slash had said more or less the same in 1992*:

GW:  Is  Gilby now  a permanent, recording member of Guns N' Roses, or is he just fill­ing in for the tour?
SLASH : Chemistry between musicians is something that takes a while to develop. So right now we're just touring. We don't have any plans for recording or writing togeth­er.
GW: Has Izzy left the band for good?

SLASH: That's something I have no idea about- how this is going to affect Izzy and his attitude. He may be happy not doing this anymore. Or he might really want to come back and make the effort that he was­n't making before. I just can 't understand how he could let something like this just fall apart. I mean the guy didn't want to tour or do videos; he hardly wanted to record. I just never thought he was one of those guys that this would happen with. It's a lot different than the Steve Adler situation . So I don't know what's going to happen a year from now: whether we'll be working with Gilby, Izzy or somebody else altogether. A lot of things are up in the air right now. But we've got a heavy duty tour going on, and we've got a killer band to do it. [Slash, Guitar World, Feb. 1992]

* According to Izzy, it was Axl talking through Slash in those interviews (had Axl "possessed" him? )

Edited July 27, 2017 by Blackstar

[DieselDaisy]

When Slash was demoing songs for the next Guns N' Roses album he demoed them with, and in fact wrote with, Gilby. That tells you all you need to know.

[soon]

Ive always wondered if Paul was maybe clean living?  And if that can sometimes be a barrier to a relationship with a rock star drug addict?  

As quote above, Slash wrote in his book: "Paul showed up: he had no personality whatsoever and no particular guitar style or sound that I could identify with. He was, without doubt, the least interesting , most bland guy holding a guitar that I'd ever met. I tried my best to work with him, but it went nowhere. It was even more awkward then it sounds because our stilted interaction took place at rehearsal with everyone else watching us (...). No, it was useless; the guy was irredeemable. It was like talking to a wall,  a wall with a bad attitude. He was totally arrogant and gave off the vibe that he was Axl's boy, that he was in, and that everyone else had to deal with it."

The bits about "Stilted interaction" makes me picture Slash - basically communicating like Keith Richards by that point, elegantly wasted, used to being catered too - expecting Paul to be impressed and deferential towards Slash.  But Paul is just trying to hold back a grin each time Slash says "this, that and the other" "All things considered"  "the antithesis" etc.  Slash trying to crack jokes in each sentence and a sober person not seeing the humour in any of it.  And Slash perhaps defines this as "taking to a wall."

And non successful drug use can be incredibly humiliating.  That plus fragile rock star ego.  So for this to happen "at rehearsal with everyone else watching" could be not only humiliating, but fuel drug-inspired inner narratives.  What if the guy brought in to write, because Slash just had an albums worth of material rejected is a mature adult and Slash is giggling as he pisses himself and expecting deferential treatment.  How would that play out?

[Lies They Tell]

The bottom line is that Axl couldn't write with Gilby and Slash and Duff couldn't write with Paul.

So instead of hoping for someone like Gilby to return, who Axl doesn't feel comfortable writing with, shouldn't we be happy that they've got Fortus, who apparently everyone in the band enjoys working with.

When all of them enjoy working with each other, we have the biggest chance of getting some new music from the band. Hoping for Gilby to return is like hoping for Paul Tobias to return. Basically you're hoping for the band to break up.

[Blackstar]

I have a theory on the reason (not the main one probably, but at least a partial one) why Axl wanted Paul Tobias in the band (and tried to impose him).

According to Axl (I'm paraphrasing), there was a rivalry between Izzy and Slash in the early days; he said they didn't like each other much. But that rivalry (Axl has called it a "war"), as reflected to the making of the songs and to their guitar interplay, was a basic ingredient of the band's sound and a big part of what made AFD a "perfect" (Axl's word) album.

I think Axl had been trying (in vain) to recreate that "ingredient" since Izzy's departure and throughout the NuGuns era untli the DJ Ashba period (when he obviously gave up). In general, he'd been trying to replicate the recipe of the AFD era. It didn't have to do with the musical direction, but with recreating the chemistry. This is why he was looking at lead guitarists to replace Izzy; he wanted someone to "challenge" Slash, not just complement him. And when Slash left, two guitarists weren't enough for what he was trying to do (he knew it would be impossible to find someone with Slash's talent and personality, and even if he didn't want to change the direction, he'd have to). I also think it wasn't coincidental that Axl's choice for Duff's replacement was a bassist with punk roots.

Where does Paul Tobias fit in this pattern? He had some things in common with Izzy, as far as Axl is concerned: He was, like Izzy, Axl's childhood friend/schoolmate from Indiana (all three of them were at the same school year) and someone who Axl had played and written (at least) a song with. Axl said in 1987 that he had seen Izzy's big potential all along (he said he'd been "pushing" him to write) and, when the original band got together (ie. Izzy and Slash), Izzy "brought it". So maybe Axl thought that history could be repeated with Tobias. Of course, like I said, this was likely a partial reason, with the main being the power game and Axl wanting his own guy in the band.

----

To remain on topic, I don't know if Axl thinks Fortus could fill this role, since it seems he didn't trust him much on CD; and, of course, if Slash sees Fortus as someone he could work with.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Blackstar

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

1 hour ago, soon said:

Ive always wondered if Paul was maybe clean living?  And if that can sometimes be a barrier to a relationship with a rock star drug addict?  

As quote above, Slash wrote in his book: "Paul showed up: he had no personality whatsoever and no particular guitar style or sound that I could identify with. He was, without doubt, the least interesting , most bland guy holding a guitar that I'd ever met. I tried my best to work with him, but it went nowhere. It was even more awkward then it sounds because our stilted interaction took place at rehearsal with everyone else watching us (...). No, it was useless; the guy was irredeemable. It was like talking to a wall,  a wall with a bad attitude. He was totally arrogant and gave off the vibe that he was Axl's boy, that he was in, and that everyone else had to deal with it."

The bits about "Stilted interaction" makes me picture Slash - basically communicating like Keith Richards by that point, elegantly wasted, used to being catered too - expecting Paul to be impressed and deferential towards Slash.  But Paul is just trying to hold back a grin each time Slash says "this, that and the other" "All things considered"  "the antithesis" etc.  Slash trying to crack jokes in each sentence and a sober person not seeing the humour in any of it.  And Slash perhaps defines this as "taking to a wall."

And non successful drug use can be incredibly humiliating.  That plus fragile rock star ego.  So for this to happen "at rehearsal with everyone else watching" could be not only humiliating, but fuel drug-inspired inner narratives.  What if the guy brought in to write, because Slash just had an albums worth of material rejected is a mature adult and Slash is giggling as he pisses himself and expecting deferential treatment.  How would that play out?

Great point made.  And I thought the same thing, actually, when I read that particular part of the book.  Anyone might have been an 'uninteresting person' to Slash at that time.  And as Axl said, they do have their own agendas.  Duff said during a radio interview that when writing his autobiography, he consciously chose to present a 'version of the truth' so as 'not to throw anyone under the bus'.  He went on to say he already regretted how he'd presented his father.  

But that's the inherent problem with quoting from their autobiographies, really, and taking what they say as gospel, and trying to match up the different pieces of the puzzle.  You get one perspective.  One.  And yes, it's that person's truth, but it might not present the full picture.  Slash himself acknowledges this in his book, in fact, goes to some lengths to point out that Axl's 'truth' is every bit as 'valid' as his.  And memories of specific details can be fuzzy especially over time and especially when you were soaked up to your eyeballs in alcohol/drugs.  Obviously, we've nothing else to go by except their autobiographies and interviews with journalists.  But it's worth bearing in mind that we'll never really get to the bottom of whatever shit went down because we weren't there.  We don't know.  We can only speculate.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[Sunset Boulevard]

Nobody cares about Tobias, Gilby, Finck, Buckethead, Bumblefoot and all these guys. They're GONE.

Some people care about Izzy, but not that much. 

 

People care about the CURRENT guitarist in the band : Richard Fortus.

People care about the CURRENT guitarist in the band : Slash.

 

People care about the SLASH/FORTUS combo.

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Sunset Boulevard

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Sunset Boulevard said:

Nobody cares about Tobias, Gilby, Finck, Buckethead, Bumblefoot and all these guys. They're GONE.

Some people cares about Izzy, but not that much. 

 

People care about the CURRENT guitarist in the band : Richard Fortus.

People care about the CURRENT guitarist in the band : Slash.

 

People care about the SLASH/FORTUS combo.

 

What a load of tripe.

[Sunset Boulevard]

Over 3 Millions people agree all over the world! 

It's all about Fortus and Slash, wake up!

It's FORTUS TIME

Edited July 27, 2017 by Sunset Boulevard

[Sunset Boulevard]

Put your headphones, left hear... just enjoy the genius. Fortus plays like a guitar god, he puts Izzy to SHAME.

 

[default_]

45 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

What a load of tripe.

As much as I link him, I think people exagerates on the Fortus praise sometimes, but hey... If we cant have Izzy back, we better have someone that can actually play all sorts of things and not just some powerchord (Gilby/Tobias) or is a sad emo dude (Finck).

People love to complain about his solos but thats a band decision, they rehearse as a band, its a band thing... he's not doing that out of blue and I suspect they chose to do that so Axl can have more time to rest.

As for composing... If we ever get a new GNR album and it is at least on the same level as the Dead Daisies or The Compulsions material we're lucky. Or you guys really think we'll have a new Appetite/Illusions? nop nop nop Or it'll be a "generic" hard rock n' roll album or it'll be the second half of CD, we'll never get a new appetite.

I'm perfectly fine with generic hard rock n roll over weird industrial farts.

EDIT: Oh, and Izzy solo music after the JuJu Hounds is also generic as fuck, so theres that too. Don't count Izzy on being the savior 'cause you may be disappointed.
I like the generic dated hard rock n' roll approach, but some people seems to think a new Appetite/Illusions is automatically going to happen if we get the band back. it wont.

Edited July 27, 2017 by default_

[soon]

"Slash and the other bloke"  

[Asia]

Still on the topic of Tobias. It was one of the greatest mistakes Axl has ever made, yes, he ruined his own life just  because for "five minutes" he had a wish to put his old pal in the band and he just had to push it through. That guy didn't matter to anyone in the world, including Axl himself (cause where is he now?), yet he broke up his band and ruined 23 years of his life for his sake. That's the epitome of what Slash once said about Axl that he does things to hurt himself. What kind of idea is this to force a guitar player upon another guitar player? Those guys need to communicate, it's Axl who doesn't necessairily have to like his rhythm guitarist, since he has little to do with him but the two guitarists, well, it's obvious they have to find common language and if they don't, it's just not gonna work, no matter what.

I guess though that at that time Axl thought himself a God - the only one who knows what is best for the band, the only one who knows what is best for Slash and Duff and everybody. With the two of them being so wasted, it was even easier for him to believe that he knows better what's best for them than they know themselves. And he had his "circle of close friends" who were always talking to him and calling him when things in the band were going downhill, probably getting him even more wired up and assuring him he's right. Completely thoughtlessly and without even being aware of what he was doing, he broke up the band and brought upon himself pretty much nothing but 20 years of misery. That was a real achievement, as far as doing stupid things is concerned. I still don't know how it is possible that he didn't see that what he was doing literally left Slash no choice other than make the decision he made. Regardless of what Slash has behind his own ears (I'm far from finding him a saint), the truth is it was Axl who ultimately ended it all with a couple of stupid and unacceptable moves. The "putting Slash on salary" thing and Paul Tobias were things Slash could not possibly accept under any circumstances and it's mind blowing Axl didn't find that obvious.

I'm pretty sure that if it weren't for Tobias and the new contract (idea from hell), sooner or later there'd be another GN'R album and it pretty much doesn't matter what it would sound like, it would probably still be good as they were still in their prime and even if it wasn't the best, there'd be more of them to make up for that. But no, what Axl chose instead was pushing Slash out just to cry over it for the next two decades, remain unable and unwilling to do anything without Slash but at the same time obsessively refusing to patch things up with him and reunite 20 years later when most of his voice is gone, his best years are behind him spent mostly crying somewhere inside his mansion and at times humiliating himself playing on weddings to pay his bills. Yes, the guy is crazy and he's a master in doing himself the greatest harm.

I really do hope though that they will eventually come up with something new. Even if Axl doesn't sound as good anymore or if the album is far from their best musical achievements, I nevertheless wish he gets that chance once again to reinstate himself as a creative artist, who still has something he wants to tell to the world. He had such great plans in this respect when he was young, he fucked it all up and can't take back time so I hope that at least now he will do everything that can be done to make up for it, at least partly, for his own fucking sake. He deserves that, even if he's a complete idiot and douchebag at times.

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

Don't have quotes or anything- but isn't Fortus rumored to be a major contributor (including writing credits) on the "second half of Chinese" material? No idea if that will ever see the light of day (personally have my doubts)- but if true- definitely connotes a larger level of "trust"/regard than anything ever conferred upon Gilby...

[ToonGuns]

Not holding my breath much on new "album". Maybe one song on a movie soundtrack. CD2 should be left alone and I just can't see the band having the time, inclination or opportunity to write or record anything at the moment.

Hope I'm wrong.

[Sunset Boulevard]

22 minutes ago, AXL_N_DIZZY said:

Don't have quotes or anything- but isn't Fortus rumored to be a major contributor (including writing credits) on the "second half of Chinese" material? No idea if that will ever see the light of day (personally have my doubts)- but if true- definitely connotes a larger level of "trust"/regard than anything ever conferred upon Gilby...

Yes, sir.

Fortus has most certainly written more material over the last 15 years than Izzy ever did in Guns N' Roses.

He is also currently writting new material with Slash and Duff right now.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Sunset Boulevard

[BorderlineCrazy]

3 hours ago, Sunset Boulevard said:

Fortus has most certainly written more material over the last 15 years than Izzy ever did in Guns N' Roses.

Quality over quantity, right? Izzy's legendary stuff is pretty much at every rock fan's house, and Richard's... is in the vault 

[Tom-Ass]

17 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Quality over quantity, right? Izzy's legendary stuff is pretty much at every rock fan's house, and Richard's... is in the vault 

Seriously

[default_]

22 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Quality over quantity, right? Izzy's legendary stuff is pretty much at every rock fan's house, and Richard's... is in the vault 

And this is exactly why I still defend Fortus in here. People dont even give him a fuckin chance as for now theres no reason to dislike him or trash his abilities as a composer. He never got a chance to create songs for Guns N' Roses and prove he can or cant do it. You obviously cant expect his early bands or side projects sound like something Guns worth cause he wasnt trying to achieve that sound, you cant compare post punk, early 90s alternative rock and AOR to the GNR sound, but once he is focused in composing to Guns N Roses, specially now with Slash, I think he'll do good. He is a pro, he is a great country/blues player, he has the same influences as Slash and Duff, he is a massive Stones fan, what is something really important in this matter... 

So, if we ever get a new album, Ill be looking forward for his contributions. 

And if it sux, Ill just join your party and wish for the next one. 

[BorderlineCrazy]

3 minutes ago, default_ said:

And this is exactly why I still defend Fortus in here. People dont even give him a fuckin chance as for now theres no reason to dislike him or trash his abilities as a composer. He never got a chance to create songs for Guns N' Roses and prove he can or cant do it. You obviously cant expect his early bands or side projects sound like something Guns worth cause he wasnt trying to achieve that sound, you cant compare post punk, early 90s alternative rock and AOR to the GNR sound, but once he is focused in composing to Guns N Roses, specially now with Slash, I think he'll do good. He is a pro, he is a great country/blues player, he has the same influences as Slash and Duff, he is a massive Stones fan, what is something really important in this matter... 

So, if we ever get a new album, Ill be looking forward for his contributions. 

And if it sux, Ill just join your party and wish for the next one. 

I'm not assuming Richard's contributions will suck, just don't understand why this delusional dude would make that stupid comparison with Izzy when Richard clearly can't win.

I really like Richard as a player. He was probably my favorite member on Axl's solo band (I mean, I like Buckethead way more but to me Richard was the perfect combination between being a great player and a good fit for the band). That said, I don't enjoy him that much in GNR, I feel he often overplays and that ruins some songs for me (especially Rocket Queen).

Overall, I still think he's a wondeful player. As a writer I'm not really sure, never heard a song that made me feel he's in a league close to the GNR guys, I doubt he's able to come up with stuff that's good enough to be part of a GNR record. I won't assume he can't do it without actually listening to what he's got to offer (if Axl ever let us hear another GNR record) but I'm not holding my breath for his contributions.