Rate: Civil War studio (minus Izzy) vs Farm Aid w/ Izzy

[RONIN]

Izzy Stradlin' is the greatest of all time. Just wanted to get that out of the way first.

Some thoughts I'd love to hear opinions on folks:

1. In retrospect, how has Steven's drumming held up on Civil War (studio)? Is it exactly what that song needed or could it have been better (i.e. you wish Matt had done that track)? I know that it was cut/pasted from 50-60 different sessions and was Adler at his absolute lowest mentally/physically. That being said - his drumming on Civil War to my ears sounds great. I feel like he adds an energy to that track that lifts it far above what it would have conceivably been with Matt. As it stands, it's simply a small taste perhaps of what UYI could have been with Steven.

2. Does Civil War (studio) lose anything without Mr. Stradlin? Obvious question gets obvious answer, yes, I know. But do you miss Izzy's ragged punchy guitar in the mix here or is Slash doubling guitars good enough for your ears?

3. How does Farm Aid's live version stack up against the studio version we got without Izzy and a cut/paste Adler? Farm Aid '90 is always surreal to see given the added weight of it being the final show of the classic lineup. You have Adler tripping and faceplanting right out of the gate, some seriously bizarre band chemistry particularly the toxic vibes between Axl and Steven onstage. And you have the legendary, near mythic Stradlin' flanked by 2nd stringers like Axl and Slash. It's hard to rate this performance for me given the behind the scenes drama.

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by RONIN

[WhazUp]

I believe the studio version of CW has Izzy on rhythm guitar though, no?

Left channel electric guitar, it definitely has the Izzy sound to it.  When Slash doubles up on guitar on tunes like Locomotive it is a lot more forward and (obviously) Slash sounding than Izzy who laid back and had a different tone

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

I believe the studio version of CW has Izzy on rhythm guitar though, no?

Left channel electric guitar, it definitely has the Izzy sound to it.  When Slash doubles up on guitar on tunes like Locomotive it is a lot more forward and (obviously) Slash sounding than Izzy who laid back and had a different tone

Izzy is not on the studio version, according to the liner notes, at least.

[WhazUp]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Izzy is not on the studio version, according to the liner notes, at least.

Hey, you learn something new every day! Lol that's interesting I always just assumed it was Izzy this whole time.  Slash did a better job doing the Izzy role on that tune than some of the other UYI tunes if that is the case

[RONIN]

7 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

I believe the studio version of CW has Izzy on rhythm guitar though, no?

Left channel electric guitar, it definitely has the Izzy sound to it.  When Slash doubles up on guitar on tunes like Locomotive it is a lot more forward and (obviously) Slash sounding than Izzy who laid back and had a different tone

There was a thread that discussed this here recently I think. Izzy is missing on like 3-4 Illusion tracks....

[ZoSoRose]

I think the studio version is fine as is. 

[NeonKinight]

so, in greatest hits, we don't have izzy on civil war and we have slash doing a part of the solo in SFTD? i'm asking because i never paid to much attention on greatest hits.

[History2010]

4 minutes ago, NeonKinight said:

so, in greatest hits, we don't have izzy on civil war and we have slash doing a part of the solo in SFTD? i'm asking because i never paid to much attention on greatest hits.

Izzy isnt on any studio versions of Civil War 

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, NeonKinight said:

so, in greatest hits, we don't have izzy on civil war and we have slash doing a part of the solo in SFTD? i'm asking because i never paid to much attention on greatest hits.

The GH version of Civil War is the UYI version where Izzy doesn't play.

On SFTD there is Slash's solo and Paul Tobias duplicating/"echoing" it.

[NeonKinight]

57 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

The GH version of Civil War is the UYI version where Izzy doesn't play.

Wasn't him in the band when they recorded it? He left in '91, so.... i'm not understandin' it

[Silverburst80]

The studio version sounds good to me and is a Guns classic, can't really hear Izzy in the live mix apart from the intro. Pretty simple old rhythm track so hard to say if it would of sounded hugely different, Izzy really came into his own with more up-tempo stuff like Rocket Queen, Think About You or Move To The City....he really drove those tracks along.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Silverburst80

[History2010]

1 hour ago, NeonKinight said:

Wasn't him in the band when they recorded it? He left in '91, so.... i'm not understandin' it

for whatever reason he was not present for the recording. 

UYI songs without Izzy: 
The Garden, Civil War, Locomotive and My World

[thunderram]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

Izzy Stradlin' is the greatest of all time. Just wanted to get that out of the way first.

 

You're really working overtime to convince yourself of this, aren't you?

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by thunderram

[thunderram]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

2. Does Civil War (studio) lose anything without Mr. Stradlin? But do you miss Izzy's ragged punchy guitar in the mix here or is Slash doubling guitars good enough for your ears?

 

As evidenced by limited sample size in this thread, I think you'll find that the majority are unaware that IZZY wasn't involved in recording the studio version. And the majority of those that did know probably only discovered it by reading the liner notes.

In short, it didn't matter. It's still one of the more popular tracks on the UYI albums.

 

 

[AncientEvil80]

1) I LOVE Steven's arrangements on Civil War in the studio. Some of his best in my opinion. Absolutely adorable, perfect fills. Matt? NO fucking way, please. Steven's drumming give the song the round, soft edges it needs.

2) Anything GNR without Izzy loses something. Would love to hear a proper Stradlin arrangement for the whole song. His own way.

3) Love CW at Farm Aid. One of my fave performances to listen to, even though I usually prefer the pre-1988 version of GNR live. Something about that whole gig that just reeks of raw extreme talent, high emotions mixed with carelessness, spontaneity, anger and extreme drug abuse. Just beautiful. And yea, I kinda prefer it to the studio version, if only because of Dizzy's useless piano.. 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by AncientEvil80

[MYWIFEMYLIFE]

I love both versions, it also shows how important Steven is, not just Izzy. 

[soon]

1) I love the drum take on the album. The Farm Aid performance's tempo is way to slow imo. It could also be that theres a lot more 'room' left in the band arrangement at Farm Aid, emphasizing the sound of hard booze and heroin. Seems like Slash meant to set the tempo that slow as he seems to be happily rocking out in the pocket for the entire song. I think the studio take is the perfect tempo. Adler did great. I will say though that for me Sorum sounded really good on Civil War live. Adlers fill during Live Aid at 5:17-21 is just gorgeous imo. Its a bit Lars in that its not performed well, but it is the perfect fit for that moment in that song.

2) Its hard to tell because Izzy seems to be turned down when ever its a loud section of the song. I always like the clean tone, syncopated/behind the beat, percussive-yet-lazy chords that chime and sustain through the chorus on the album ("my hands are tied!" Chime guitar). Thought it was such "classic Izzy" until I learned other wise. If Im not mistaken Slash is playing those shimmery, hanging chords during the chorus on Farm Aid with distorted tone. Izzy is jugging away with out much distinguishable flare (it seems to me) but he too can be heard doing some of those behind the beat shimmering hanging chords during the chorus. So comparing Farm Aid to the earlier instrumental demo - which is a bit more 'Slash Metal' in the chorus, with heavy palm muting - its almost like Slash took elements of his two performances, with some inspiration from Izzy and created two distinct guitar parts for the album. I wish I could hear Izzy better as Im sure he's doing some good work. I think Slash was emulating Izzy on the record and if so I think he did a good job of it.* So I guess I both adore the track as is and would also take more Izzy on any song.

3) The tempo bothers me at Farm Aid. If theres a weak link in the performance Id call out Duff. He does great for most of the performance and absolutely makes the first chorus rock with his bass. But his bass in (all but the first) verses is rather anemic. Then Duff is captured on camera barely whispering, a very unmusical "...fell for Viet Nam." (~3:46). A few bars later he screws up his bass line. Finally in the double-timed final chorus Izzy and Duff sing the whole thing, for this first time hitting all their marks, but with Duff of key and out of rhythm. And a truly "classic Izzy" moment where he echoes "Grocery Store" after the fact, lol.

 

* Is it known if Izzy created the melodic lead he plays during the intro?

Edited August 1, 2018 by soon

[Blackstar]

6 hours ago, NeonKinight said:

Wasn't him in the band when they recorded it? He left in '91, so.... i'm not understandin' it

Civil War was not recorded during the main UYI sessions, it was recorded earlier (around April-May 1990) and that's why Steven was on it (it was his last recording with GnR). Alan Niven was asked about it in one of his latest interviews but he didn't remember why Izzy wasn't there.Word is that Izzy was in Europe at the time as he was recovering from cutting off drugs.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Blackstar

[Axl_morris]

4 songs ? Wow. Learn something new. 

[Tori72]

35 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Civil War was not recorded during the main UYI sessions, it was recorded earlier (around April-May 1990) and that's why Steven was on it (it was his last recording with GnR). Alan Niven was asked about it in one of his latest interviews but he didn't remember why Izzy wasn't there.Word is that Izzy was in Europe at the time as he was recovering from cutting off drugs.

Tbh, I always liked the farm aid version and I don’t get any more aggressive vibes from Axl than on other shows. Ialso think steven plays just fine. Maybe a little slower but I like it. 

@Blackstar where did you read/hear that Izzy was in Europe at the time? And which country? Would like to know more if there is more.

[Blackstar]

13 minutes ago, Tori72 said:

Tbh, I always liked the farm aid version and I don’t get any more aggressive vibes from Axl than on other shows. Ialso think steven plays just fine. Maybe a little slower but I like it. 

@Blackstar where did you read/hear that Izzy was in Europe at the time? And which country? Would like to know more if there is more.

I read it from a member here on the forum, I think it was @Izzymacbeth. I don't have any other source about Izzy being in Europe for that reason at that time. But he definitely seems to have been somewhere out of town, because from what he said later he wasn't there for the most part of the Steven saga and when he came back Sorum was already rehearsing with them. It's a bit strange though, because the Civil War session probably happened not long after Farm Aid.

[Fashionista]

4 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I read it from a member here on the forum, I think it was @Izzymacbeth. I don't have any other source about Izzy being in Europe for that reason at that time. But he definitely seems to have been somewhere out of town, because from what he said later he wasn't there for the most part of the Steven saga and when he came back Sorum was already rehearsing with them. It's a bit strange though, because the Civil War session probably happened not long after Farm Aid.

Izzy was pretty disinterested at this point. Outside of the opening lead solo on Back Off Bitch, he really only contributes basic chords on the songs he is on according to Slash. Very bare bones effort compared to his playing on AFD-Lies. It's possible he just didn't bother turning up for the session.

 

[Nice Boy]

Given that people seem to like Adler's performance of it at Farm Aid, it's difficult to see why it was considered such a bad performance, especially considering he apparently barely knew the drum parts at the time. I guess it was his almost falling over at the beginning which made it stand out as shoddy.. 

[ludurigan]

18 hours ago, RONIN said:

Izzy Stradlin' is the greatest of all time. Just wanted to get that out of the way first.

Some thoughts I'd love to hear opinions on folks:

1. In retrospect, how has Steven's drumming held up on Civil War (studio)? Is it exactly what that song needed or could it have been better (i.e. you wish Matt had done that track)? I know that it was cut/pasted from 50-60 different sessions and was Adler at his absolute lowest mentally/physically. That being said - his drumming on Civil War to my ears sounds great. I feel like he adds an energy to that track that lifts it far above what it would have conceivably been with Matt. As it stands, it's simply a small taste perhaps of what UYI could have been with Steven.

2. Does Civil War (studio) lose anything without Mr. Stradlin? Obvious question gets obvious answer, yes, I know. But do you miss Izzy's ragged punchy guitar in the mix here or is Slash doubling guitars good enough for your ears?

3. How does Farm Aid's live version stack up against the studio version we got without Izzy and a cut/paste Adler? Farm Aid '90 is always surreal to see given the added weight of it being the final show of the classic lineup. You have Adler tripping and faceplanting right out of the gate, some seriously bizarre band chemistry particularly the toxic vibes between Axl and Steven onstage. And you have the legendary, near mythic Stradlin' flanked by 2nd stringers like Axl and Slash. It's hard to rate this performance for me given the behind the scenes drama.

 

 

1) its absolutely fantastic. exactly what the song needed as every other recording that steven did for GNR. oh and dont let them fool you with the "cut and paste from 50-60 takes" talk, they probably used 5 or 6 takes and lied to us like they do since forever

2) it sounds good but i always go to Rio 1991 when i want to listen UYI songs played by GNR. still hoping for a future release of UYI featuring izzy guitar. but that would be too embarrassing for slash (imagine a stick on the cover saying something like "For the first time the original Guns n Roses Use Your Illusion recordings before Slash and Axl fucked with it!") so it will likely never happen

3) Farm Aid is the best live version of Civil War. UYI version is also good but if i had to choose i would pick the Farm Aid version

 

[Fashionista]

27 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

 

1) its absolutely fantastic. exactly what the song needed as every other recording that steven did for GNR. oh and dont let them fool you with the "cut and paste from 50-60 takes" talk, they probably used 5 or 6 takes and lied to us like they do since forever

2) it sounds good but i always go to Rio 1991 when i want to listen UYI songs played by GNR. still hoping for a future release of UYI featuring izzy guitar. but that would be too embarrassing for slash (imagine a stick on the cover saying something like "For the first time the original Guns n Roses Use Your Illusion recordings before Slash and Axl fucked with it!") so it will likely never happen

3) Farm Aid is the best live version of Civil War. UYI version is also good but if i had to choose i would pick the Farm Aid version

 

The story about CW has been consistent over 25 years. 

We gave him a year to get his shit together. He couldn't play any of the new shit anyway. It got to a point where the material was way beyond him. I can't believe this little f?!ker. I read the shit he said about us in Circus (...) He said in that article he's sober now, but every time I've seen him, he's been wasted. I don't know what he's wasted on; I don't even care. I lost all concern and feeling for the guy. And I know a drug lie when I see one. We couldn't get any work done at Rumbo [the original studio where the band started work on Use Your Illusion three years ago]. He cost us a fortune. We had to edit the drum track to 'Civil War' just so we could play to it. At Rumbo, Steven would nod out to the point where he would be on a stool, but his head would be touching the floor. He'd say, 'I'm tired. I'm sleepy,' and he couldn't play. That was basically it. We gave him so many chances to turn around. We took him to Indiana, to play Farm Aid, and he jumps on the drum riser and almost breaks his f?!king neck. Look, Steven was a part of what made Guns N' Roses happen. He had a great energy. He wasn't an insanely great drummer, but he had tons of attitude. When the sex and drugs and the whole bit started to get out of hand, he went right along with it. But there's a certain time when you really have to control your life. I'm not preaching - I'm in no position to preach - but you must be aware of your own existence and take care of your own business. You just can't be loaded all the time and expect everything to be okay. Trust me, I know. As far as the rest of us, we bounced back, we straightened up. Steven never did. We always told each other when it was getting real bad. Everybody was there for the individual who needed help. That's how we're survived as a band. But Steven would never cop to anything, as far as telling us how bad it was. And now he's suing us. Thank you very much [Slash, RIP March 1992]

At this time I had nearly managed to get clean up, from everything. When I was looking at the band, I would see Stevie, who was a good guy, who's been struggling with us during all these years, but couldn't handle it anymore. He was a real millstone, he needed to clean up! Fuck... We all tried to help him, to support him. But no, finally, we'd been on the road with this guy for years and we lived this dilemma: "OK. We leave him six months doing nothing without any guarantee it gets better, or we forget about the double album and we burry the band?" Actually, the industry's machine woke up and the answer was: "We take someone else to cut these records." It's wasn't an easy decision. [Izzy, Rock & Folk, September 1992]

When we started rehearsing the material [for Use Your Illusion] that's when Steven's house of cards came crashing down. He was utterly useless when put to the test: most of the time he'd fade away from the proper time signature somewhere in the middle of the song or just forget where he was altogether. He was just incapable of locking in with Duff or me like he used to do. It was pretty dire; something had to be done . [Slash, autobiography, 2007]

Farm Aid was the last show we ever played with him. When we got back to L.A., Steven got even worse - I don't know, maybe because he knew the end was near, or maybe because heroine is that shrewd of a devil. There were a few more rehab stints, but they were short-lived, maybe twenty-four to forty-eight hours at a time. The last straw came when we were asked to donate a track to a charity album called 'Nobody's Child,' (...). By then we were completely alienated from Steven. In that session, there was us and there was him. After it was finished, before Mike Clink could mix it, he found that he had to cut and paste the whole drum track together [Slash, autobiography, 2007]

When producer Mike Clink and I had pieced together the drum track for 'Civil War' earlier that year, it was clear Steven was not going to be able to perform with us if he didn't turn things around. When we had played a couple songs to a huge crowd at Farm Aid in April, he was a mess onstage. After that we thought we could scare him straight. We told him we were auditioning drummers and figured he's snap out of it as soon as he heard that. When that didn't work, we hired a professional sober coach, Bob Timmons, who had helped Aerosmith get clean, to talk to him. [Duff, autobiography, 2011]

Man, I was fucked up, and I have never denied that, I couldn’t really deny it because it was pretty fuckin’ obvious…But I wasn’t the only one. I remember one day Slash called me to go to the studio and play Civil War, I think it was. I’d been given an opiate blocker by a doctor. I still had opiates in my system and it made me so sick. I must have tried, like, 20 times to play it, but I couldn’t. I was very weak and I didn’t have my timing. Slash and Duff were shouting at me and telling me I was fucked up. [Steven Adler, Classic Rock, 2011]

 

Also:

We tried for the longest time to give Steven a vision and a function. There was a combination of factors going on. One was that he could just not connect to the kind of material that Axl was writing. “Coma”, “Estranged” … he’d just roll his eyes. And, of course, the fact that he had no control over his heroin habit. [Alan Niven, quoted in Mick Wall, Last Of The Giants, 2016]

Also, from Steven's own mouth: "It took me forever to get the song [Civil War] right, and they got frustrated with me."

Edited August 1, 2018 by Fashionista