The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[downzy]

On 8/17/2021 at 8:09 AM, SoulMonster said:

 

There’s a bit of context missing from the comparison. It is my understanding that using helicopters to transfer personnel and diplomats in Kabul was common practice (for the last few years at least).  I don’t believe that was the case with Saigon. 

[Jakey Styley]

13 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Here's my thing, Trump struck a deal with the Taliban 18 months ago. What was the Pentagon doing this entire time? Did they not think this was actually going to happen and they could just ignore it?

 

I think I read someone in Defense say that they honestly thought Biden would reverse? It's hard to imagine, but it seems like they just did nothing in this time. Feels like it's worth an investigation. 

[downzy]

Trump's last Secretary of Defence (he had many) came out today and said that they never really had any intentions of leaving Afghanistan.  The exit of forces agreement with the Taliban was only meant to be a ploy, and that American troops would have remained in the country even if the Taliban retook power. 

Ultimately I think what we've seen in the last two weeks comes down to an intelligence failure.  Biden was informed that the Afghani military could hold the Taliban for longer than they actually were able to (which was none at all).  Hence they operated with the expectation that they would have more time.  I don't think anyone would assume that the Afghani military was going to be able to keep the Taliban in check for any serious amount of time.  But there's a lot of monday-morning quarterbacking going on with the revelation that Afghan forces couldn't even keep Kabul for a week.  Other than the intelligence missteps, I don't have an issue with Biden operating on the belief that there was at least another month or two to get their affairs in order.  

[Orsys]

6 hours ago, downzy said:

Trump's last Secretary of Defence (he had many) came out today and said that they never really had any intentions of leaving Afghanistan.  The exit of forces agreement with the Taliban was only meant to be a ploy, and that American troops would have remained in the country even if the Taliban retook power. 

 

See this is where I wonder what is really going on. Trump's "ploy" included reducing the number of military to 2,500 leaving the opportunity for the Taliban to strengthen  and organizing, including the 5,000 fighters that were released?   

And I read a article about an Afghan soldier on the Daily Beast that seemed odd. "On Saturday night, he says he and his contingent were told by their superiors to surrender. “We did, we had a plan to fight for a while but no one asked us for fight. This is the most ridiculous moment of my life.”

The soldiers thought they were going to fight.  This and all the praise trump gave the Taliban makes me wonder. 

[Padme]

13 hours ago, downzy said:

Trump's last Secretary of Defence (he had many) came out today and said that they never really had any intentions of leaving Afghanistan.  The exit of forces agreement with the Taliban was only meant to be a ploy, and that American troops would have remained in the country even if the Taliban retook power. 

Ultimately I think what we've seen in the last two weeks comes down to an intelligence failure.  Biden was informed that the Afghani military could hold the Taliban for longer than they actually were able to (which was none at all).  Hence they operated with the expectation that they would have more time.  I don't think anyone would assume that the Afghani military was going to be able to keep the Taliban in check for any serious amount of time.  But there's a lot of monday-morning quarterbacking going on with the revelation that Afghan forces couldn't even keep Kabul for a week.  Other than the intelligence missteps, I don't have an issue with Biden operating on the belief that there was at least another month or two to get their affairs in order.  

 

6 hours ago, Orsys said:

See this is where I wonder what is really going on. Trump's "ploy" included reducing the number of military to 2,500 leaving the opportunity for the Taliban to strengthen  and organizing, including the 5,000 fighters that were released?   

And I read a article about an Afghan soldier on the Daily Beast that seemed odd. "On Saturday night, he says he and his contingent were told by their superiors to surrender. “We did, we had a plan to fight for a while but no one asked us for fight. This is the most ridiculous moment of my life.”

The soldiers thought they were going to fight.  This and all the praise trump gave the Taliban makes me wonder. 

According to the Bob Woodward book Fear, Trump always wanted to leave Afghanistan. In his view it was a lost cause. And a very expensive one. This issue comes up somewhat often in the book. Why nothing happened? Because people around him told him it would be a mistake to leave Afghanistan. Who were those people? The likes of Mattis, Tillerson, Kelly and McMaster. And Trump himself. He would say something today just to forget about it 5 minutes later. Then the following month, out of nowhere he would get back at the issue. He would be stopped again by those people after heated debates on the issue. He would forget all about it for a while and so on. 

[Dazey]

Sounds like Joe was bending the truth a tad with his claims that nobody had raised the alarm that the Taliban were poised to make significant gains within days. This isn’t looking good. He needs to pull his head out of his arse and own this quickly or he’s in trouble. 

[Dazey]

Gotta say I think he makes a lot of good points. 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Dazey

[Padme]

45 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Sounds like Joe was bending the truth a tad with his claims that nobody had raised the alarm that the Taliban were poised to make significant gains within days. This isn’t looking good. He needs to pull his head out of his arse and own this quickly or he’s in trouble. 

He is going to speak today about evacuation. Maybe he speaks about other issues as well

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/politics/biden-afghanistan-evacuation/index.html

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, Padme said:

He is going to speak today about evacuation. Maybe he speaks about other issues as well

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/politics/biden-afghanistan-evacuation/index.html

Fingers crossed but this is an absolute nightmare and one that was totally avoidable. I’ve been consistently critical of Trump and I’d be hypocritical not to give Biden a kicking when it’s deserved. He’s fucked this up big time and he needs to do better. Quickly. 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

18 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Fingers crossed but this is an absolute nightmare and one that was totally avoidable. I’ve been consistently critical of Trump and I’d be hypocritical not to give Biden a kicking when it’s deserved. He’s fucked this up big time and he needs to do better. Quickly. 

Why is this all on Biden? As I said earlier, what the hell was the Pentagon doing for the past 18 months when Trump made the deal with the Taliban? Did they do ANY planning here?

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

23 hours ago, downzy said:

Trump's last Secretary of Defence (he had many) came out today and said that they never really had any intentions of leaving Afghanistan.  The exit of forces agreement with the Taliban was only meant to be a ploy, and that American troops would have remained in the country even if the Taliban retook power. 

Ultimately I think what we've seen in the last two weeks comes down to an intelligence failure.  Biden was informed that the Afghani military could hold the Taliban for longer than they actually were able to (which was none at all).  Hence they operated with the expectation that they would have more time.  I don't think anyone would assume that the Afghani military was going to be able to keep the Taliban in check for any serious amount of time.  But there's a lot of monday-morning quarterbacking going on with the revelation that Afghan forces couldn't even keep Kabul for a week.  Other than the intelligence missteps, I don't have an issue with Biden operating on the belief that there was at least another month or two to get their affairs in order.  

I think we also have to take into account Biden (like previous Presidents) was probably just being lied to by the military about how well the war was going and how strong the Afghan forces were. That's what the Afghanistan Papers released 2 years ago suggests.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Biden spoke today telling everyone that the US is working with the Taliban in getting the Americans out of Afghanastan. Let's see how that goes. The video of everyone running for the airport is terrible.  I'm afraid if the Taliban start stopping more and more people this won't end well.

Many people are still stuck in Kabul but also many other cities. How will they get to the airport if the Taliban is blocking the roards.

And I'm sorry about how the US never thought the Taliban would take over the country to quickly. Did they not see them moving towards all the cities like the rest of the world did? Where were they hiding for the past 20 years? Who were the US fighing for over 20 years? This war was one big mess. Lives were lost for a country that was taken over in less than 2 weeks?  

Biden talking about only America can do the job of saving those Afghans and brining them to safety. Maybe at one time, but honestly, I don't know what's happened to our armed forces in these past years? Maybe they just too tired by the big wigs telling them all the wrong things to do? Just too sad.

[Padme]

27 minutes ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

And I'm sorry about how the US never thought the Taliban would take over the country to quickly. Did they not see them moving towards all the cities like the rest of the world did? Where were they hiding for the past 20 years? Who were the US fighing for over 20 years? This war was one big mess. Lives were lost for a country that was taken over in less than 2 weeks?  

Tell that to the previous Afghan President and the so called Afghan Army trained by U.S. Army. It was their job to fight the Taliban. They couldn't be arse 

[Orsys]

Trump's February 2020 announcement of the "deal" with the Taliban should have started the plan for excavation of allies and US citizens. But they didn't do that. Because they, too, believed that there was no need. Under Trump, thousands of US military were brought home leaving 2,500. And 5,000 extra Taliban were added after they negotiated for release. Trump even said that the Taliban was now preparing to fight the terrorists.

I believe that the Trump admin saw it the way the Biden admin did. That the Taliban was acting in good faith, and would honor the "deal".  It is a Trump/Biden fiasco that they believed the Taliban to be allies. 

 

[Orsys]

It is interesting how often I read today that this will define Biden's presidency. Trump's exit from Syria was seen in a similar way and he was slammed for abandoning the Kurds. But it certainly is not what defined his presidency.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

1 hour ago, Orsys said:

Trump's February 2020 announcement of the "deal" with the Taliban should have started the plan for excavation of allies and US citizens. But they didn't do that. Because they, too, believed that there was no need. Under Trump, thousands of US military were brought home leaving 2,500. And 5,000 extra Taliban were added after they negotiated for release. Trump even said that the Taliban was now preparing to fight the terrorists.

I believe that the Trump admin saw it the way the Biden admin did. That the Taliban was acting in good faith, and would honor the "deal".  It is a Trump/Biden fiasco that they believed the Taliban to be allies. 

 

To what extent is the Taliban not respecting the deal? There hasn't been a US soldier killed since the deal and supposedly the airport has now been secured and the Taliban has announced a general amnesty. We'll see if their amnesty holds up, but things appear to have stabilized.  

[Orsys]

17 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

To what extent is the Taliban not respecting the deal? There hasn't been a US soldier killed since the deal and supposedly the airport has now been secured and the Taliban has announced a general amnesty. We'll see if their amnesty holds up, but things appear to have stabilized.  

There have been reports of Taliban control and seizing allies of the US.  There does seem to be a bit of a settling now, but it did appear the Taliban aggressively took control of the country.  I don't think they have broken the deal but the deal was weak and didn't ask for enough concessions to protect Afghan people. They didn't break the deal, but I do think they acted in bad faith.  I believe a phase 2 was supposed to define a shared power structure between the Taliban and Afghan government. They took power pretty fast so that phase will not materialize.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

3 hours ago, Orsys said:

There have been reports of Taliban control and seizing allies of the US.  There does seem to be a bit of a settling now, but it did appear the Taliban aggressively took control of the country.  I don't think they have broken the deal but the deal was weak and didn't ask for enough concessions to protect Afghan people. They didn't break the deal, but I do think they acted in bad faith.  I believe a phase 2 was supposed to define a shared power structure between the Taliban and Afghan government. They took power pretty fast so that phase will not materialize.

A few things here, the Afghan army folded in 3 days, and the President fled the country. Who would the Taliban even be sharing power with? They are the legitimate power now in that country. As long as they are keeping to the deal and not killing Americans, we need to just move on. Who knows, years from now we could be allies again. Look at Vietnam, we now have no issue being on friendly terms with them.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Basic_GnR_Fan

[Dazey]

21 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Why is this all on Biden? As I said earlier, what the hell was the Pentagon doing for the past 18 months when Trump made the deal with the Taliban? Did they do ANY planning here?

Problem is that the buck stops with the guy at the top. It was completely within Biden’s power to delay or even cancel the withdrawal if sufficient planning had not been done. I like the guy but you’ve got to call out when he fucks up or you’re as bad as the Trump sycophants who can never admit when their dude fucks up. Another thingy I just don’t get is why did they abandon Bagram? Surely that should have been the last thing to close? Would have given them a secure airfield where they could have carried out all necessary evacuations from. 

[Orsys]

10 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

A few things here, the Afghan army folded in 3 days, and the President fled the country. Who would the Taliban even be sharing power with? They are the legitimate power now in that country. As long as they are keeping to the deal and not killing Americans, we need to just move on. Who knows, years from now we could be allies again. Look at Vietnam, we now have no issue being on friendly terms with them.

But that's my point. The deal was made, shady as it was without Afghanistan at the table.  A "phase 2" of the deal (as reported by AP) was that there would be negotiated sharing of power. But if that was going to happen, the Taliban would not have taken all power immediately. That's the part where they were not acting in good faith.  Agree with you though, The US just needs to get US citizens and their Afghanistan allies out and be done with it.  Other ally countries should get out as well. I do worry about what happens to women and girls now, especially since they have had a taste of more freedoms.  Breaks my heart. But not sure what other countrys' role would be in changing that at this point.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

I watched Bill Mahr last night and he had an ex soldier who served in Afghanastan for 2 years. He has confidence that our military will get the Americans out and then leave. He also believed that no matter how long the US stayed in Afghanastan there would never be a good government there. The ex president had over 180,000,000 dollars when he left there. WTF? Bill 's right every war is about money. The US has lost it's mind.

I read on yahoo.com that now ISIS in back there messing with the people trying to get out.

It's like they all were hiding just waiting for the right moment to emerge from their underground lairs to take over yet again.

I hope the US learns from this and stays out of these countries because even though we have a great military you can never beat these tribes that know the lay of the land so well and don't play by the rules.

I want our men and women home safely and let that country take care of itself.

Those countries have not changed in thousands of years, and they won't start now.

5 hours ago, Orsys said:

But that's my point. The deal was made, shady as it was without Afghanistan at the table.  A "phase 2" of the deal (as reported by AP) was that there would be negotiated sharing of power. But if that was going to happen, the Taliban would not have taken all power immediately. That's the part where they were not acting in good faith.  Agree with you though, The US just needs to get US citizens and their Afghanistan allies out and be done with it.  Other ally countries should get out as well. I do worry about what happens to women and girls now, especially since they have had a taste of more freedoms.  Breaks my heart. But not sure what other countrys' role would be in changing that at this point.

Not sure if this is correct, Bill mahr said that when Trump made the deal he wanted to invite the Taliban leaders to Camp Daivd?

Either way, they waited to take over as soon as most of our military was gone and I'm sure lke the ex President, the Taliban are being paid well too.

Money talks and shit walks.

[Orsys]

15 minutes ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

I watched Bill Mahr last night and he had an ex soldier who served in Afghanastan for 2 years. He has confidence that our military will get the Americans out and then leave. He also believed that no matter how long the US stayed in Afghanastan there would never be a good government there. The ex president had over 180,000,000 dollars when he left there. WTF? Bill 's right every war is about money. The US has lost it's mind.

I read on yahoo.com that now ISIS in back there messing with the people trying to get out.

It's like they all were hiding just waiting for the right moment to emerge from their underground lairs to take over yet again.

I hope the US learns from this and stays out of these countries because even though we have a great military you can never beat these tribes that know the lay of the land so well and don't play by the rules.

I want our men and women home safely and let that country take care of itself.

Those countries have not changed in thousands of years, and they won't start now.

Not sure if this is correct, Bill mahr said that when Trump made the deal he wanted to invite the Taliban leaders to Camp Daivd?

Either way, they waited to take over as soon as most of our military was gone and I'm sure lke the ex President, the Taliban are being paid well too.

Money talks and shit walks.

You mean the phase 2 part?  Yes, that was supposed to happen. but the talks fell apart, partly because phase 1, the "deal", did not include the Afghans, which understandably didn't sit well with them.  I wonder if this is not why the Taliban just walked in and took control of everything. Plus, of course, the fact that the military sat down.  I did read of frustrated soldiers that wanted to fight, were ready to fight, and were told by their superiors to surrender.  Makes me think, like you said, it's all about the money. And a few people got it all.  Biden did the right thing. I hope he gets it done by 9/11 so it meets the target he set.  There was no way trumpets weren't going to make it look like a failure regardless of how it went down anyway.

[downzy]

Biden made the right call, but shit the bed in terms of execution.

Will Americans care in a month?  LOL…

It’s been amazing how big of a disconnect there is between the talking heads and the general public on this issue.  I actually think the sudden fall of Afghanistan could be flipped to become a political asset for Biden.  Most Americans want America out.  Most Americans don’t and won’t care that it was badly managed.  

The only way this ordeal comes to define Biden’s Presidency is if a 9/11 attack were to emanate from Afghanistan. I personally think that’s unlikely but you never know.

If Biden can shift the blame for 4th wave of covid onto Republican governors (which is a gimme at this point) and get the Democratic caucus to pass the infrastructure bill, he sets himself up well for re-election three years from now.  I feel that most federal Republicans would rather see a Biden second term than a return of Trump. If you’re Ted Cruz or DeSantis, you want Trump to lose in 2024 and then have a wide open shot in 2028. 

[Dazey]

47 minutes ago, downzy said:

Biden made the right call, but shit the bed in terms of execution.

Will Americans care in a month?  LOL…

It’s been amazing how big of a disconnect there is between the talking heads and the general public on this issue.  I actually think the sudden fall of Afghanistan could be flipped to become a political asset for Biden.  Most Americans want America out.  Most Americans don’t and won’t care that it was badly managed.  

The only way this ordeal comes to define Biden’s Presidency is if a 9/11 attack were to emanate from Afghanistan. I personally think that’s unlikely but you never know.

If Biden can shift the blame for 4th wave of covid onto Republican governors (which is a gimme at this point) and get the Democratic caucus to pass the infrastructure bill, he sets himself up well for re-election three years from now.  I feel that most federal Republicans would rather see a Biden second term than a return of Trump. If you’re Ted Cruz or DeSantis, you want Trump to lose in 2024 and then have a wide open shot in 2028. 

If Trump runs and loses in 2024 he’s going to run again in 2028. 😂

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Dazey said:

If Trump runs and loses in 2024 he’s going to run again in 2028. 😂

There’s no way that fat, out of shape fuck makes it to 2028. 

Long covid will get him.

That or a Filet-O-Fish.