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The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0


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40 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Basically what's happened is that the US expected the Afghan army to keep the peace across country while they beat an orderly withdrawal. Thought they'd be well out of it before the Taliban started kicking off. The fact that the Afghan army didn't even attempt to defend themselves and effectively surrendered without a fight was a bit of a shock but not entirely unexpected. Taliban steamrolled the country in less than a week and with only 2,000 troops remaining in country the US couldn't have done anything even if it wanted too.

The optics look particularly horrendous because now the White House is stuck with it's thumb up its arse wondering what the fuck just happened. For the record I don't think that the decision to get out was the wrong one necessarily nor do I think it would have happened any other way given the complete and utter collapse of government forces but fuck me if this doesn't look to the casual observer like the US has had it's pants pulled down in epic fashion!

Sure it is an embarrasment. How come nobody knew how incompetent the Afghan Army was?

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/15/kabul-and-taliban-what-know-us-withdrawal-afghanistan/8142051002/

Long and informative article. The U.S. expected some degree of mess. But they never saw this one coming. At the same time the U.S. Army couldn't stay there forever. Now the U.S. has to swallow this crap

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1 hour ago, Padme said:

 Some women might have been able to school. But they still cover their bodies from head to toe. I can't imagine a woman in that place being the CEO of anything. What infrastructure? I'm sure there is bridge somewhere. And some airport. Afghanistan is far from being Abu Dabi when it comes infrastructure

Yeah, ok.

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Even the Iranians are running away :shock:

Iran reduces diplomatic staff in Afghanistan and shuts 3 consulates

From CNN’s Adam Pourahmadi

Iran has shut three of its consulates in Afghanistan and reduced the number of personnel at its embassy in Kabul amid the deteriorating security situation in the country, Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman Saeed Khatibzadeh said according to a statement.

Iran closed its missions in Mazar-i-Sharif, Herat and Kandahar, the statement said.

“At the moment, only the security guards and a few local colleagues are present at these three missions,” Khatibzadeh said.

“Iran has also drawn down staff members at its embassy in Kabul, and a number of our colleagues have returned, leaving only enough personnel to handle the embassy’s essential activities,” he added.

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Surreal scenes from the airport in Kabul, a US Air Force plan rolling over the airstrip with dozens of Afghani clinging on , trying to escape the country. Just made my jaw drop.

The withdrawal of international forces forces from Afghanistan is just the period to 20 years of waste and futility. The intention of invading the country may have been okay, the execution was terrible and the outcome are so many people dead and nothing to show for it. Taliban will reverse any improvements made. The people will suffer.

I disagree, the intention wasn't even good. When has the US proven it can nation-build? All people can point to is Germany and Japan after WWII, but those were actual prosperous countries beforehand, all they needed was money and resources to rebuild what they had.

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59 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I disagree, the intention wasn't even good. When has the US proven it can nation-build? All people can point to is Germany and Japan after WWII, but those were actual prosperous countries beforehand, all they needed was money and resources to rebuild what they had.

Uh, yeeeah. Obviously have to concur with you on this one "the USA had good intentions in the Middle East." Wow. No, they didn't. Absolutely baffling.

They shouldn't have invaded in the first place. At most they should've gone over there just to assassinate Bin Laden, you know that CIA asset.

The fact that in 2021 the Military Industrial Complex etc isn't understood is startling. "USA was there for women's rights and infrastructure." No lol.

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9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Uh, yeeeah. Obviously have to concur with you on this one "the USA had good intentions in the Middle East." Wow. No, they didn't. Absolutely baffling.

They shouldn't have invaded in the first place. At most they should've gone over there just to assassinate Bin Laden, you know that CIA asset.

The fact that in 2021 the Military Industrial Complex etc isn't understood is startling. "USA was there for women's rights and infrastructure." No lol.

Yeah, the whole 'the US is there for women's rights" is such an obvious cope we don't even have to analyze it too deeply. If that were the case, the US would be invading and occupying literally every poor country in the world, not just the ones they have a geo-strategic interest in!

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10 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Yeah, the whole 'the US is there for women's rights" is such an obvious cope we don't even have to analyze it too deeply. If that were the case, the US would be invading and occupying literally every poor country in the world, not just the ones they have a geo-strategic interest in!

Forget about women’s rights in other countries…. There’s many Americans who couldn’t give a shit about women’s rights in America. 

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27 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Yeah, the whole 'the US is there for women's rights" is such an obvious cope we don't even have to analyze it too deeply. If that were the case, the US would be invading and occupying literally every poor country in the world, not just the ones they have a geo-strategic interest in!

Btw I'll just add, since I'm readily critical of the USA's nefarious doings, that NZ joined in and of course I don't approve of that or any other countries involvement either. I find it such an awkward and shameful position my country is in where we have to sort of tag along with USA or UK - when it's not justified. I heard a while back our special forces went in and wiped out a few villages, think it was out of revenge, appalling.

30 minutes ago, downzy said:

Forget about women’s rights in other countries…. There’s many Americans who couldn’t give a shit about women’s rights in America. 

Lol yeah pretty much. America is such a clusterfuck. On the other hand...they should probably re-invade Afghanistan and maybe Syria and Iran too! The whole world?! Because something something 'democracy' something something 'freedom' something something 'womenz rightz'.

The big concern now is how Russia and China are gonna meddle and if the Taliban will continue to be relatively peaceful(doubt it).

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6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Wow, how you guys are spinning. I was talking about international forces and that it may have been with good intentions. 

They were there as an extension of USA forces for the purposes of currying favour/trade. You don't think USA was there for things like women's rights, but UK, Germany, NZ or whatever could've been? So what USA is like the big fat kid on the playground pummeling the weaklings and we're standing behind them going "Pssst women's rights!" :lol:

I think being in Afghanistan where like 90% of the world's heroin is produced is a more likely reason than that.

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1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

They were there as an extension of USA forces for the purposes of currying favour/trade. You don't think USA was there for things like women's rights, but UK, Germany, NZ or whatever could've been? So what USA is like the big fat kid on the playground pummeling the weaklings and we're standing behind them going "Pssst women's rights!" :lol:

I also never said anything about anyone being there for "womens' rights". But yeah, there was a humanitarian aspect to the 20 year presence in Afghanistan, although the extent to that varied from participant to participant and it was definitely not an important aspect to USA's decision to invade after 9/11. 

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18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I also never said anything about anyone being there for "womens' rights". But yeah, there was a humanitarian aspect to the 20 year presence in Afghanistan, although the extent to that varied from participant to participant and it was definitely not an important aspect to USA's decision to invade after 9/11. 

That seems a bit pedantic because 'humanitarian aspects' alludes to the women's rights thing. But okay you're saying not that. So humanitarian aspects to invading Afghanistan for 20years such as...?

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40 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Wow, how you guys are spinning. I was talking about international forces and that it may have been with good intentions. 

Maybe those NGO's that tagged along after the US invasion had better intentions than the war architect's. I don't find that objectionable. But we have to admit it was all a house built on sand, those missions were only possible on the back of US military force (very similar to the Catholic church tagging along after colonial empires established their beachheads). Once the US pulled out, Afghanistan just reverted back to what it wanted to be....an illiberal, heavily Islamic influenced state.

Edited by Basic_GnR_Fan
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5 hours ago, Padme said:

Care to eleborate about "improvements" I never saw them. And this situation is clear evidence of that. The Taliban did what they did because they have plenty of support from inside the country and outsiders as well. Otherwise this situation would've never happened. And if people suffer, their problem. Enough already with western countries spending tons of money in some worthless cause. Western countries need to deal with many issues already, from the economy to the pandemic and everything in between.

 

5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

You were there? Mostly improving conditions for women by lifting restrictions but also investment in infrastructure.

This is how you answered Padme. Lol. But you're backpedaling now I guess.

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12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

That seems a bit pedantic because 'humanitarian aspects' alludes to the women's rights thing. But okay you're saying not that. So humanitarian aspects to invading Afghanistan for 20years such as...?

Something is fucking up the forum for me and I just lost a reply. But mostly what @Basic_GnR_Fan said below :)

It is a conflation of what I wrote to make it seem I suggested the invasion of Afghanistan was about empowering women, and it is a simplification of the complexity of the war and presence in Afghanistan by so many different forces, including ISAF, to disregard the possibility that some forces MAY have been there also for humanitarian purposes, as I wrote.

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8 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

This is how you answered Padme. Lol. But you're backpedaling now I guess.

I was specifically addressing a question on what good things had been achieved in Afghanistan, not giving a prioritized list as to the humanitarian reasons some forces may have had for joining in.

To turn this around, of the positive things achieved over the last 20 years in Afghanistan, where would you rank women being allowed to get education? Walk to a doctor without a male chaperone? Not having to wear burkas? You might have different views on this, but I rank it among the top.

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It looks like Europe will try to clean up the mess

A Downing Street spokesperson has said:

The prime minister spoke to French president Emmanuel Macron this afternoon to discuss the current situation in Afghanistan.

He stressed the need for the international community to come together and take a unified approach on Afghanistan, both in terms of recognising any future government and in working to prevent a humanitarian and refugee crisis.

The prime minister outlined his intention to host a virtual meeting of G7 leaders on Afghanistan in the coming days to this end.

The leaders both emphasised the ongoing importance of working together on the longterm future of Afghanistan and the immediate need to help our nationals and others get to safety.

They agreed that the UK and France should work together at the UN security council, including on a possible joint-resolution.

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13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

To turn this around, of the positive things achieved over the last 20 years in Afghanistan, where would you rank women being allowed to get education? Walk to a doctor without a male chaperone? Not having to wear burkas? You might have different views on this, but I rank it among the top.

Lol of course I think females should be allowed to be educated, have the freedom to walk to the doctor(or anywhere else) without male chaperones and not have to wear burkas. I'm just not stupid or naive enough to think that was the reason for the invasion and/or occupation.

Whether or not a negligible percentage of this or that entity thought otherwise is pissing up the wall. It was a futile fleeting notion tossed around for PR.

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8 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Lol of course I think it's important that females are allowed to be educated, have freedom to go to the doctor(or anywhere else) without male chaperones and not have to wear burkas. I'm just not stupid enough to believe that was the reason for the invasion and/or occupation.

And no one has claimed it was.

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

I was specifically addressing a question on what good things had been achieved in Afghanistan, not giving a prioritized list as to the humanitarian reasons some forces may have had for joining in.

To turn this around, of the positive things achieved over the last 20 years in Afghanistan, where would you rank women being allowed to get education? Walk to a doctor without a male chaperone? Not having to wear burkas? You might have different views on this, but I rank it among the top.

They still wear burkas when they go to school. Heck! Even a lot of middle eastern women living in Europe still wear burka. Anyway, the thing is this rights are just baby steps.  It is stil too soon to call it achievement even if the Taliban were gone. It's gonna take  a lot of time and struggle before it becomes something normal and logic

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