THE GENERAL - MONSTERS - Official Discussion Thread. NO LINKS OR ASKING FOR LINKS

[Rindmelon]

4 minutes ago, NicoRourke said:

Thank you, I understand the meaning of the word but I don't get what that sentence means in the context of the chorus. The sordid meaning of what? I don't understand what it refers to :-s Not the sordid meaning of the unspoken feelings?

I guess it's open to interpretation. Given the meaning of the song i almost don't want to know 

[Sweersa]

7 minutes ago, Miden34 said:

so here is one out of left field... the lyrics in the chorus to monster, most think its, "oh its over now." i think its, "Its all burned down." and i think the song is actually Berlin(Or was). and that its related to the Reichstag fire. go read up on that. Axl does have a fondness for historical shit. 

 

I don't think it's Berlin (formerly Oklahoma) because Axl was talking about Soul Monster and Berlin in the album chats. They have to be separate songs. 

This is assuming Monsters is Soul Monster, which is not totally confirmed but damn near confirmed.

Also, the Oklahoma instrumental has nothing in common with Monsters. Even the 2000 Shackler's Revenge mix has at least a few things in common with the complete album version of that song. 

[Arnuld]

3 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

I wish people would stop perpetuating CD2 songs as "CD leftovers" to imply songs that didn't make the album were not good enough. It was said, by multiple members of the band, including Axl, that CD initially was going to be a double album or considered a double, and when they apparently scrapped that plan, it was going to be a follow-up "second part" of the 2008 album, to be released a year or so after the 2008 album.

CD is not a "best of" the 2.5 (or so) albums worth of material they finished by 2008.  Axl's conversation with Bach after he played him songs like The General and others further supports this, as him wanting certain songs on different albums (talking about three albums) because they fit other songs lyrically. 

The Village leaks also support this, as there are complete or nearly complete songs that were not placed on the first album that are better (somewhat subjective) than a majority of the songs on the first album. The 2000 mixes of Perhaps and Hard Skool alone are better than a lot of the songs on the first album, likely considered A-list by the band.

I always thought that the CD1 and CD2 were supposed to be like Radiohead’s Kid A and Amnesiac. Two Albums recorded during the same sessions both containing A-listed and B-listed songs and a few extra tracks not slated for either album. 

[ZoSoRose]

1 minute ago, Sweersa said:

I wish people would stop perpetuating CD2 songs as "CD leftovers" to imply songs that didn't make the album were not good enough. It was said, by multiple members of the band, including Axl, that CD initially was going to be a double album or considered a double, and when they apparently scrapped that plan, it was going to be a follow-up "second part" of the 2008 album, to be released a year or so after the 2008 album.

CD is not a "best of" the 2.5 (or so) albums worth of material they finished by 2008.  Axl's conversation with Bach after he played him songs like The General and others further supports this, as him wanting certain songs on different albums (talking about three albums) because they fit other songs lyrically. 

The Village leaks also support this, as there are complete or nearly complete songs that were not placed on the first album that are better (somewhat subjective) than a majority of the songs on the first album. The 2000 mixes of Perhaps and Hard Skool alone are better than a lot of the songs on the first album, likely considered A-list by the band.

Sorry, man, it is just how I view them and I am sticking with it. I am THRILLED we are getting these and am over the moon I saw The General premiere live, in person, I am not trying to complain, The locker leaks have an incredible record in them- if the instrumentals were finished, and we just don't know how many were. The General itself is a good example- it has a lot less parts than a song like Better, and even TWAT which we consider "epic". 

Anyways,

1. Zodiac
2. Hard Skool
3. Oklahoma
4. Perhaps
5. Absurd
6.Going Down 
7. State of Grace
8. Tonto
9. Quick Song
10. Me and My Elvis
11. Atlas Shrugged
12. The General 
13. Monsters

Now, that is a pretty solid and heavy record if it came out in 2011 or so (despite Absurd), but we have no idea if a lot of those songs were even finished. In a vacuum, some of those follow a pretty basic and repetitive song- structure, though. 

I think Chinese could have been a double album, but I think it would have included these leaked/ released leftovers and the final album- tracks all intertwined with differing tracklistings and shorter discs than Chinese. Right now, we know Atlas was pretty much done, I'll include Oklahoma and State of Grace to be generous- that is 22 songs which is enough for a double release imo. 

 

[Sweersa]

5 minutes ago, Arnuld said:

I always thought that the CD1 and CD2 were supposed to be like Radiohead’s Kid A and Amnesiac. Two Albums recorded during the same sessions both containing A-listed and B-listed songs and a few extra tracks not slated for either album. 

That was likely the original intention. 

[Sweersa]

2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Sorry, man, it is just how I view them and I am sticking with it. I am THRILLED we are getting these and am over the moon I saw The General premiere live, in person, I am not trying to complain, The locker leaks have an incredible record in them- if the instrumentals were finished, and we just don't know how many were. The General itself is a good example- it has a lot less parts than a song like Better, and even TWAT which we consider "epic". 

Anyways,

1. Zodiac
2. Hard Skool
3. Oklahoma
4. Perhaps
5. Absurd
6.Going Down 
7. State of Grace
8. Tonto
9. Quick Song
10. Me and My Elvis
11. Atlas Shrugged
12. The General 
13. Monsters

Now, that is a pretty solid and heavy record if it came out in 2011 or so (despite Absurd), but we have no idea if a lot of those songs were even finished. In a vacuum, some of those follow a pretty basic and repetitive song- structure, though. 

I think Chinese could have been a double album, but I think it would have included these leaked/ released leftovers and the final album- tracks all intertwined with differing tracklistings and shorter discs than Chinese. Right now, we know Atlas was pretty much done, I'll include Oklahoma and State of Grace to be generous- that is 22 songs which is enough for a double release imo. 

 

I understand your perspective. Axl said in 2006 that they were working on 32 songs, with 26 nearly done. (Or something similar) That's basically two albums. In the same year he said they had 2.5 albums worth of material done. In 2014 he said they had the second part of Chinese already recorded, and that it had been done a while, and that they have worked on new stuff subsequent to it. 

Everything leads to them having at least two albums done by the time the 2008 album came out. 

[Jwalker19]

18 hours ago, hpantazo said:

I would imagine State of Grace and Monsters are the next two tracks after The General. A completed State of Grace would be a nice single. 

I'd be super cool with that! State of Grace really grew on me. The high notes at the end are awesome!

18 hours ago, colonizedmind said:

I do too....I happen to think lyrics and vocal wise, it's probably the most complete song and I wonder what it sounded like in 2008 since it was taken off Chinese at the last moment (plus Bumble versions etc)...I think it forms a themed trilogy with Catcher and Perhaps....connected with Brian May solos too...

Yeah, I think with a little tinkering they could've easily completed it. To me, it's a simple song, but Axl's voice is so good on it.

[ZoSoRose]

1. Chinese Democracy
2. Shackler's Revenge
3. Better
4. Street of Dreams 
5. There Was a Time
6. Oklahoma
7. Sorry
8. If the World
9. Scraped
10. The General 
11. Monsters

1. Madagascar
2. Hard Skool 
3. Zodiac
4. State of Grace
5. Perhaps
6. Riad and the Bedouins 
7. Atlas Shrugged
8. I.R.S.
9. Absurd
10. Catcher in the Rye
11. This I Love
12. Prostitute

I can see something like that for a CD1 and CD2. That way a lot of the more basic- structured songs are interspersed with the more complex stuff. What do you think, @Sweersa?

Edited November 6, 2023 by ZoSoRose

[Arnuld]

4 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

1. Chinese Democracy
2. Shackler's Revenge
3. Better
4. Street of Dreams 
5. There Was a Time
6. Oklahoma
7. Sorry
8. If the World
9. Scraped
10. The General 
11. Monsters

1. Madagascar
2. Zodiac
3. State of Grace
4. Perhaps
5. Riad and the Bedouins 
6. Atlas Shrugged
7. I.R.S.
8. Absurd
9. Catcher in the Rye
10. This I Love
11. Prostitute

I can see something like that for a CD1 and CD2. That way a lot of the more basic- structured songs are interspersed with the more complex stuff. What do you think, @Sweersa?

That second album would need to start Hard Skool with the original long intro 

[ZoSoRose]

Just now, Arnuld said:

That second album would need to start Hard Skool with the original long intro 

Forgot HS, I put it on CD2 but after Maddy (I thought that was a cool opener on Rough Mixes 1). But, it is all in good fun!

[colonizedmind]

22 minutes ago, Jwalker19 said:

I'd be super cool with that! State of Grace really grew on me. The high notes at the end are awesome!

Yeah, I think with a little tinkering they could've easily completed it. To me, it's a simple song, but Axl's voice is so good on it.

Those drums though...👌

[Sweersa]

I really really hope the vocals are clearer on the final versions of these songs. I understand and don't mind the distortion on them, but as they are on the leaked files, you can hardly make out most of them.

[surforia]

Does anyone know whether Monsters will be tagged onto The General as the b-side to Perhaps?

[bumcheecksmcghee]

9 minutes ago, surforia said:

Does anyone know whether Monsters will be tagged onto The General as the b-side to Perhaps?

Make more sense that it will probs be on the atlas ep as the B side?

[evilfacelessturtle]

5 hours ago, Matt07 said:

It does really sound like synth on the leak. I’m sure (I hope 😱)  it’s incomplete and we will have a proper sitar sound on the final studio cut (closer to the live version). 
There are a few clues which lead us to think that the version we got was a work in progress :

- The drum beat is slightly different in the live versions. 

- The chorus is copy pasted each time : you can hear it clearly on the word “feeling”. 

- The orchestral arrangements are under-mixed in the leak compared to the live versions, which doesn’t do the song justice. 

Hope all of those issues have been addressed ! 

 

 

Copy and pasting the chorus is pretty common. Was that not done on CD? Without going through and comparing, I'd say there's a high chance of it.

2 hours ago, avahland said:

Another question by another non native speaker :

Don't know what to tell you now
It's never really what they tell you, now
You oughta know what they tell you now
And not really what they tell you now
Don't know what to tell you now
It ain't really what they tell you, now
Don't go where they tell you, now
It ain't really what they tell you, now

Easy to translate, hard to understand.
Feeling a bit stupid....but I don't understand these lines.

 

Like a lot of Axl's lyrics, they are intentionally vague. All it really means is that he doesn't have all the answers and that you can't trust what "they" tell you. Who are "they" and what are the questions that need to be answered? Your guess is as good as mine.

2 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

I like the song, but I agree. For all the hype (our fault) and buildup, the song is essentially just 3 basic parts that repeat. Even the bridge is the same as the verse with different (albeit basic) lyrics. Same with Monsters, Hard Skool (the bridge is a bit different on that one but the lyrics are still pretty repetitive), and Absurd.

Actually, a lot of the songs on Chinese went from simple to epic because of all of their layers but even quite a few of those had some cool song structures with instrumentals, intros and outros, leads, etc. All the leftover songs sound more like leftovers because they have a lot of repetition and basic parts.

That doesn't make them bad songs, it is just the truth. I would be lying if I said The General delivered on all the hype, but I don't think anything really could have. When I first heard it, I was really disappointed- but the more I listened, the more I dig the chorus, drums, and bass and then the overall package. It could have used more cooking, ironically, but he had 16+ years to do that so I will take what we can get. Maybe it is Stockholm syndrome, but I do like the song for what it is quite a bit. It did really help that it leaked with Monsters, so they feel more like an "epic" when listened to back- to- back as two separate songs. 

I am taking these songs for what they are- leftover Chinese Democracy era songs that did not make the final cut of the record. If you look at them through that lens as opposed to a full, long- lost CD2 record, they are a lot more enjoyable. I really like HS, Perhaps, The General, and Monsters through that lens, actually. Absurd is like a guilty pleasure when I am by myself 

Couldn't agree more. With all the time that the CD era spanned, the songs were not being extensively re-worked and constantly changing, as many people had assumed. I genuinely believe that these songs were never really finished, but because Axl didn't think he could top the existing vocals, they couldn't really change much about them.

2 hours ago, NicoRourke said:

Thank you, I understand the meaning of the word but I don't get what that sentence means in the context of the chorus. The sordid meaning of what? I don't understand what it refers to :-s Not the sordid meaning of the unspoken feelings?

Remember, these are not official lyrics. I came up with the "sordid" interpretation, and it's still debatable what that line actually is. How it relates to the context is also hard to say because Axl is very vague with his lyrics. To a native English speaker, they don't make a lot of sense, frankly. Axl has a tendency to just put together interesting or deep sounding individual lines that don't have a clear train of thought running through them all. But official lyrics might clear some things up.

[colonizedmind]

46 minutes ago, surforia said:

Does anyone know whether Monsters will be tagged onto The General as the b-side to Perhaps?

Only God knows....

[GoBucky]

52 minutes ago, surforia said:

Does anyone know whether Monsters will be tagged onto The General as the b-side to Perhaps?

I'm guessing not. 9 1/2 minutes would fit, but wouldn't sound good on one side of a 7" record. 

[Sweersa]

3 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

1. Chinese Democracy
2. Shackler's Revenge
3. Better
4. Street of Dreams 
5. There Was a Time
6. Oklahoma
7. Sorry
8. If the World
9. Scraped
10. The General 
11. Monsters

1. Madagascar
2. Hard Skool 
3. Zodiac
4. State of Grace
5. Perhaps
6. Riad and the Bedouins 
7. Atlas Shrugged
8. I.R.S.
9. Absurd
10. Catcher in the Rye
11. This I Love
12. Prostitute

I can see something like that for a CD1 and CD2. That way a lot of the more basic- structured songs are interspersed with the more complex stuff. What do you think, @Sweersa?

That's not bad. Don't forget Seven, Quick Song, Going Down, Oh My God, and Monstrocity.  (Assuming Monstrocity isn't Zodiac or another song) 

Edit: I forgot Cuban Skies

Edited November 7, 2023 by Sweersa

[AxlRQ93]

Q about the general song strufture

what exactly are the verses in the song? What exactly is the chorus?

 

also wish there was was second or third verse. The song seems like a loop. 

[Monty]

First post back in a long long time, hello everyone. I do prefer Monsters to The General.

If you told me back in 2004 that it would take until 2023 to actually hear "The General" finally....

[uzi your illusion]

For the guitar players on the board, in the 2nd live performance of General, was Slash's solo more faithful to the recording that we have, rather then the first time around?

[NachoLZ]

32 minutes ago, AxlRQ93 said:

Q about the general song strufture

what exactly are the verses in the song? What exactly is the chorus?

 

also wish there was was second or third verse. The song seems like a loop. 

Verses: Daddy dont....
Bridge: Can anybody tell me why...
Chorus: My only regret is that I never...

[kingcanyon]

1 hour ago, colonizedmind said:

Only God knows....

You mean Axl unless we're calling Axl god now

[Slugworth]

5 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

All the leftover songs sound more like leftovers because they have a lot of repetition and basic parts.

It shows how little effort was put into the follow up material even with an ungodly amount of time available to do so.

[ZoSoRose]

7 minutes ago, Slugworth said:

It shows how little effort was put into the follow up material even with an ungodly amount of time available to do so.

Yeah I doubt he’s been toiling away all these years. They are just tracks that didn’t make the cut and now they’re putting Slash and Duff on them. Works for me, it’s better than nothing! I’m glad we’re hearing them, finally