Does the NITL Tour validate Chinese Democracy?

[DieselDaisy]

59 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I wouldn't have any problems with anyone or anything plastering "Guns N' Roses" on their products, right, but that doesn't mean I would accept anything as the BAND "Guns N' Roses". A detergent company marketing their latest soap as "Guns N' Roses" would not be a band called "Guns N' Roses". The guys that released CD comprised, on the other hand, legitimately, a band called "Guns N' Roses".

You are a bit unhinged.

Because I don't agree with you?

The quintessence of Guns N' Roses resides in the deep bluesy sound of Slash's guitar, Rose's rasp and lyrical scope, Stradlin's troubadour songwriting and the punky-pop basslines of McKagan colliding with the groove of Adler. You need a sizable chunk of that, a base collegiate, to even have the nerve to stand on a rostrum and say, ''we are Guns N' Roses''. That is Guns N' Roses, not the actual wording ''Guns N' Roses'' which is merely a meaningless couple of plural nouns without the music and characters it triggers in the head.

Ashba could have played with Guns N' Roses for thirty years but he was never a member of that band and it would be a travesty to say otherwise.

[SoulMonster]

15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Because I don't agree with you?

No, because of your flailing argumentation. Within a short span of time you have claimed that if every band member was replaced with someone else the result couldn't constitute "Guns N' Roses"; that only if the band is good could it be "Guns N' Roses" (and also managed to imply the exact opposite a few posts later); that my adherence to the definition of the term "legitimate" somehow indicates I have "fallen in love with a paper"; that my interest in Guns N' Roses has only to do with legalities; that because the band was at one time dissolved and the resurrected then CD couldn't possibly have been released by "Guns N' Roses"; that because Axl got the ownership through alleged trickery it isn't "Guns N' Roses"; and then, hysterically, imply I "produce anarchy" and comparing my acceptance that a band called "Guns N' Roses" can release music under that moniker to "calling a toilet brush ''Guns N' Roses'' thoroughly expecting that toilet brush to be bestowed Guns's fandom and legacy along with name". It is just unhinged. A flurry of wild and weak stabs that completely miss the target. Moving goalposts, wild assertations and confusion.

Fact is, Chinese Democracy was released by the band Guns N' Roses. And there is nothing you can do that will alter that fact, no matter how hard, and amusingly, you try.

Edited November 20, 2018 by SoulMonster

[SoulMonster]

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ashba could have played with Guns N' Roses for thirty years but he was never a member of that band and it would be a travesty to say otherwise.

But Ashba was a member of Guns N' Roses. So was Pitman. And now is Melissa 

There is something cute about how you refuse to accept facts. It reminds me of my kids who also think they can change the world through their will alone, or just be rejecting it as it is. "NO! I will not get too tired if I stay up and watch another cartoon!" Sorry, buddy, you are wrong and there is nothing you can do about it. Better to just accept it.

[DieselDaisy]

44 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No, because of your flailing argumentation. Within a short span of time you have claimed that if every band member was replaced with someone else the result couldn't constitute "Guns N' Roses"; that only if the band is good could it be "Guns N' Roses" (and also managed to imply the exact opposite a few posts later); that my adherence to the definition of the term "legitimate" somehow indicates I have "fallen in love with a paper"; that my interest in Guns N' Roses has only to do with legalities; that because the band was at one time dissolved and the resurrected then CD couldn't possibly have been released by "Guns N' Roses"; that because Axl got the ownership through alleged trickery it isn't "Guns N' Roses"; and then, hysterically, imply I "produce anarchy" and comparing my acceptance that a band called "Guns N' Roses" can release music under that moniker to "calling a toilet brush ''Guns N' Roses'' thoroughly expecting that toilet brush to be bestowed Guns's fandom and legacy along with name". It is just unhinged. A flurry of wild and weak stabs that completely miss the target. Moving goalposts, wild assertations and confusion.

Fact is, Chinese Democracy was released by the band Guns N' Roses. And there is nothing you can do that will alter that fact, no matter how hard, and amusingly, you try.

I do not especially want to do anything about it, it sufficing to say my consideration of it as an illegitimate release is a passive and naturally occurring response to that album, rather like seeing the sun and acknowledging that it is daylight.

[ChristmasFnatic]

CD SUCKS! I really tried listeninf to the album a lot throughout the years but I cannot love it, or even like it.

But its under the GN’R name(no matter how much of us dont consider it a GN’R album), so I guess I see why they(esp Axl) feels the need to play it. It validates all those years I suppose.

atleast they should play a song from TSI though! And not just Attitude.

[Sosso]

9 minutes ago, ChristmasFnatic said:

atleast they should play a song from TSI though! And not just Attitude.

They have also played New Rose, Raw Power and You Can't Put Your Arms during this tour. I would also be happy about Down on the Farm and Since I Don't Have You, though. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Sosso

[ChristmasFnatic]

2 minutes ago, Sosso said:

They have also played New Rose, Raw Power and You Can't Put Your Arms during this tour. I would also be happy about Down on the Farm and Since I Don't Have You, though. 

They played RAW POWER?! Agree on DOTF. Human Being would be awesome!!!!

[Sydney Fan]

1 hour ago, ChristmasFnatic said:

They played RAW POWER?! Agree on DOTF. Human Being would be awesome!!!!

Would prefer black leather.

[ChristmasFnatic]

1 hour ago, Sydney Fan said:

Would prefer black leather.

Well, anything over CD songs for me. 

[Towelie]

3 hours ago, ChristmasFnatic said:

CD SUCKS! I really tried listeninf to the album a lot throughout the years but I cannot love it, or even like it.

But its under the GN’R name(no matter how much of us dont consider it a GN’R album), so I guess I see why they(esp Axl) feels the need to play it. It validates all those years I suppose.

atleast they should play a song from TSI though! And not just Attitude.

It would be cool to see them add some TSI tracks into the set. It'd probably never happen, but I'd love to see SIDHY live.

The funny thing about Axl's insistence on keeping CD songs in the set is, he actually sounds worse on those songs than the classic Guns material. He still pulls off and does a semi-passable job on songs like Nightrain, LALD, Jungle (most nights), Civil War, Brownstone, ISE, KOHD, Shadow Of Your Love etc. The songs he struggles the most with are Rocket Queen, Nov Rain and every single Chinese Democracy song. And yes, I'm including the title track in that, as he hasn't sounded good on even that one since 2016.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Towelie

[Tom-Ass]

1 hour ago, Towelie said:

It would be cool to see them add some TSI tracks into the set. It'd probably never happen, but I'd love to see SIDHY live.

The funny thing about Axl's insistence on keeping CD songs in the set is, he actually sounds worse on those songs than the classic Guns material. He still pulls off and does a semi-passable job on songs like Nightrain, LALD, Jungle (most nights), Civil War, Brownstone, ISE, KOHD, Shadow Of Your Love etc. The songs he struggles the most with are Rocket Queen, Nov Rain and every single Chinese Democracy song. And yes, I'm including the title track in that, as he hasn't sounded good on even that one since 2016.

I think Axl has improved on November Rain the last year or so.

Down On The Farm would be an awesome upgrade over any CD song and Axl could nail it too.

[Kwick1]

15 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Guns were never even that type of band whereby it was just one guy and a bunch of lesser important guys like Mercury and Queen, Morrison and The Doors or (a more extreme example) NIN! I mean they had three main songwriters (Rose/Hudson/Stradlin) and two image laden cartoon rock stars (Axl/Slash) - all of equal stature - and that is probably to do Duff and Adler a vast disservice! During their heyday you had ''Slash fans'' and ''Izzy fans'', just as you had ''Axl fans''! 

No need to explain GnR in their "heyday" to me.  I became a fan in 1987. 

[GNRfanMILO]

They should remove covers before removing CD songs. Like it or not, they are Guns N’ Roses songs and they will be played until they call it quits. Let’s not forget that Slash and Duff rehearsed them without asking Axl, it’s not like they are being forced to play them. They seem to enjoy playing them as well.

 

There’s a lot of filler shit on the current setlist. Leaving The Seeker aside, wich they obviously love playing, what’s the point of still having BLACK HOLE SUN or WICHITA LINEMAN? Or the long-ass-boring Wish You Were Here + Layla intro. Remove that shit first, and then we talk... they are only playing 2 Chinese Democracy songs at the moment. That cant bother anyone when they are doing 3 hour shows every night.

 

Hell, you can even do a normal version of Knocking On Heaven’s Door instead of that painful 10 minute version they are doing on this tour. That’s a thousand times better than completely removing a Guns N’ Roses song off the setlist.

Edited November 20, 2018 by GNRfanMILO

[F*ck Fear]

Hopefully whenever they tour again, they can switch out This I Love for Street Of Dreams.

[Amir]

47 minutes ago, F*ck Fear said:

Hopefully whenever they tour again, they can switch out This I Love for Street Of Dreams.

I prefer TIL as a song but it's been done a lot and I'm curious to hear what Slash would sound like on SOD, so I'm in favour of this.

Though I'd prefer Catcher become a regular  That was one of my positives about 2013-2014.

[wasted]

I’d like to see Shackler’s or IRS return.

[Blackstar]

On 11/20/2018 at 1:06 AM, DieselDaisy said:

Guns were never even that type of band whereby it was just one guy and a bunch of lesser important guys like Mercury and Queen, Morrison and The Doors or (a more extreme example) NIN! I mean they had three main songwriters (Rose/Hudson/Stradlin) and two image laden cartoon rock stars (Axl/Slash) - all of equal stature - and that is probably to do Duff and Adler a vast disservice! During their heyday you had ''Slash fans'' and ''Izzy fans'', just as you had ''Axl fans''! 

I'm not so sure about the latter sentence, based on the exposure each member had in the media. If we look at magazine covers and at the illustration of the articles or of the reviews back in the day, apart from band pictures in the early days, the members that were mostly featured were Axl and then Slash, which made them more recognizable. I'm not referring to the case of an interview, where of course there would be pictures of the person interviewed (and Izzy didn't do many interviews). But even then, there were examples like this, where the magazine had an interview with Duff but had Axl on the cover:

 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I'm not so sure about the latter sentence, based on the exposure each member had in the media. If we look at magazine covers and at the illustration of the articles or of the reviews back in the day, apart from band pictures in the early days, the members that were mostly featured were Axl and then Slash, which made them more recognizable. I'm not referring to the case of an interview, where of course there would be pictures of the person interviewed (and Izzy didn't do many interviews). But even then, there were examples like this, where the magazine had an interview with Duff but had Axl on the cover:

 

 

 

In that era, even Gilby appeared on magazine covers,

Albeit alongside Slash,

It was a whole different level of fame, akin to The Beatles.

PS

Here are your Duff covers,

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

Growing up during the Illusion era, the way I remember people seeing the band is completely different from how people now discuss the band on here. The celebrity attention was proportionally split a lot more among all the members. Yes of course Axl and Slash received more attention but even newcomers like Gilby and Matt received a heck of a lot more focus and were seen as ''proper'' bandmembers. It was a lot more ''Guns N' Roses'', akin to the way The Beatles are viewed, with all the constituent parts receiving a certain degree of adulation.  

That is how I remember things, back in 1991-2 ish, when I discovered Guns.

Now people tend to see the band through the prism of Axl first, Slash second, and everybody else as superfluous (Nugnr it was just Axl, Axl, Axl of course). 

[Blackstar]

I didn't say there were no covers with Duff or that the other members didn't get any attention at all. I pointed out that even then Axl and Slash got more exposure in articles that weren't interviews but were generally about the band, i.e. news, reviews etc.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Blackstar

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I didn't say there were no covers with Duff or that the other members didn't get any attention. I pointed out that even then Axl and Slash got more exposure in articles that weren't interviews but were generally about the band, i.e. news, reviews etc.

And I'd agree with that, and have stated so myself - I didn't understand your source of disputation.

I was a pure Slash fan during the Illusion era but then developed into a sort of Izzy/Slash hybrid fan later on. 

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

And I'd agree with that, and have stated so myself - I didn't understand your source of disputation.

I was a pure Slash fan during the Illusion era but then developed into a sort of Izzy/Slash hybrid fan later on. 

What I disputed was that they all had equal stature as far as recognition/exposure goes and that there were as many Izzy fans as Axl (and Slash fans). I'm not saying that was fair or anything, but that's how it was.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

What I disputed was that they all had equal stature as far as recognition/exposure goes and that there were as many Izzy fans as Axl (and Slash fans). I'm not saying that was fair or anything, but that's how it was.

But I never said any of that!!

I didn't say quantifiably, ''there were as many Izzy fans as Axl (and Slash fans)'' but merely attested to their presence: ''during their heyday you had ''Slash fans'' and ''Izzy fans'', just as you had ''Axl fans'' - Izzy's whole raison d'être was as a sort of cult figure regardless. I even acknowledged the publicly perceived dominance of Axl and Slash, my supposed denial of which you were disputing, in the exact same post (''two image laden cartoon rock stars'').

[SoulMonster]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

But I never said any of that!!

That is exactly how I interpreted it, too. You made it seem like the media focus and fan attention wasn't heavily on Axl and Slash. It was. Just look at the number of interviews with these two guys compared to interviews with Duff, Steven and Izzy in the period 1986-1991. The media wanted Axl and Slash, and fans wanted Axl and Slash. They were the guys. @Blackstarpointed that out poignantly by showing to an interview with Duff where the magazine decided that putting a picture of Axl on the cover would sell more (!). I could post more examples of that.

Even the other guys acknowledged their minor popularity in the band:

Kerrang, March 1990: 

Quote

I begin by remarking that this is the first time I had interviewed anyone form Guns N’ Roses other than.."Axl and Slash?" Duff arches an eyebrow knowingly. "The big boys, you mean?" he asks, trying for a Sid Vicious leer in mock indignation that on him looks more like the floppy half smile of an inquisitive stray dog sniffin’ a bone.

Hot Metal Stars, Fall 1990:

Quote

Hot Stars: Steven, does it bother you that some other members of the band have gotten a great deal more attention in the rock press than you have?
Steven Adler: Nah, that's the way it is. Some-one like Axl or Slash has more to say than I do —that's the standard thing with drummers. But some of the drum magazines have talked to me, and that was kind of cool.

Not saying that there wasn't the occasional fan of Izzy, Steven and Duff, just that these were rare. Personally, I became a fan of GN'R in the late 80s and can attest to this. The band consisted of Axl and Slash...and three other less important guys. At least that's how it was viewed back then, fair or not. The media pushed this illusion because Axl and Slash had that star quality that would help to sell magazines, and because they (at times at least) were both interested in doing interviews and very vocal.

In a sense, post 2000, media focus has shifted more to other band members. Mostly because Axl has chosen to not grant many interviews (so media has no other alternative), but also because other band members (Bumblefoot, Dj, Richard) have been conscious about their own branding and also taking responsibility for fronting GN'R, and of course due to the ease of which we can now do interviews over email. Not saying the media isn't fully aware that this is still very much Axl's band, just that other band members have received more media attention so that media reports aren't so skewed on Axl any more. Hell, back in the days rarely a day passed without Bumblefoot doing an interview

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That is exactly how I interpreted it, too. You made it seem like the media focus and fan attention wasn't heavily on Axl and Slash. It was. Just look at the number of interviews with these two guys compared to interviews with Duff, Steven and Izzy in the period 1986-1991. The media wanted Axl and Slash, and fans wanted Axl and Slash. They were the guys. @Blackstarpointed that out poignantly by showing to an interview with Duff where the magazine decided that putting a picture of Axl on the cover would sell more (!). I could post more examples of that.

Even the other guys acknowledged their minor popularity in the band:

Kerrang, March 1990: 

Hot Metal Stars, Fall 1990:

Not saying that there wasn't the occasional fan of Izzy, Steven and Duff, just that these were rare. Personally, I became a fan of GN'R in the late 80s and can attest to this. The band consisted of Axl and Slash...and three other less important guys. At least that's how it was viewed back then, fair or not. The media pushed this illusion because Axl and Slash had that star quality that would help to sell magazines, and because they (at times at least) were both interested in doing interviews and very vocal.

In a sense, post 2000, media focus has shifted more to other band members. Mostly because Axl has chosen to not grant many interviews (so media has no other alternative), but also because other band members (Bumblefoot, Dj, Richard) have been conscious about their own branding and also taking responsibility for fronting GN'R, and of course due to the ease of which we can now do interviews over email. Not saying the media isn't fully aware that this is still very much Axl's band, just that other band members have received more media attention so that media reports aren't so skewed on Axl any more. Hell, back in the days rarely a day passed without Bumblefoot doing an interview

Congratulations. You have just wasted a massive post on a straw man.