Should the UYIs have come out later in GN'R's career?

[HeartbreakerWoman]

When the UYIs were released, GN'R really only had one full length album out. AFD had a very consistent sound, a very consistent production and a very consistent sort of atmosphere and vibe to it. If you want to consider Lies, the new side of Lies was again, very consistent in sound and style - all acoustic tracks. All of the sudden, their next album was this all-over the place, sprawling epic which ran the gamut of almost every subgenre of rock out there, trying everything from Thrash Metal, Country Rock and Prog to Psychedelia and Power Ballads. The UYIs (IMO) have the overall better songs, but there is no consistency to the material, both in genre and in quality - everyone has their favorites on that double set, and the songs they hate as well. Whereas most fans and most casual listeners love almost everything on AFD.

Most bands spend several years and several records refinining and perfecting their sound before they try to experiment; GN'R put out one album in a very specific style, and then threw the kitchen sink and pretty much released a double album after that. Other bands, like AC/DC, find a formula that works and stick with that forever. GN'R was the other extreme, and I think it hurt them. There is an abundance of great material on the UYIs, but, you go from Rocket Queen to November Rain over the course of a single full album jump, I imagine for a lot of novices, and even for a lot of fans circa 1991, that can be quite an alienating, mind fucking experience.

My question to you is, should GN'R have put out one or two more sleazy, anthem focused hard rock records ala AFD, say in 1988 and 1989, before releasing the UYIs? Might it have not only helped GN'R's legacy, but also helped the reception and legacy of the Illusion records, too?

 

[1neophyte]

No.

[HeartbreakerWoman]

2 minutes ago, 1neophyte said:

No.

But think about the amount of changes GN'R expected fans to accept in one gulp with the UYIs:

-New drummer

-New pianist

-New sound

-Less Izzy

As I said, I love the UYIs but it can't be denied they represented in many ways, a gigantic leap for a band that had to date only put out one full record of material. I mean they went from With The Beatles to The White Album pretty much overnight, musically speaking.

[rocknroll41]

I coulda sworn I read that Axl actually wanted November Rain to come out on AFD but others involved told him itd be best to save it for later since they already had Sweet Child on there to be the flagship ballad. Point is, November Rain was likely to come out on AFD's follow-up no matter what.

[tsinindy]

51 minutes ago, HeartbreakerWoman said:

But think about the amount of changes GN'R expected fans to accept in one gulp with the UYIs:

-New drummer

-New pianist

-New sound

-Less Izzy

As I said, I love the UYIs but it can't be denied they represented in many ways, a gigantic leap for a band that had to date only put out one full record of material. I mean they went from With The Beatles to The White Album pretty much overnight, musically speaking.

Wait....what?   There are some who consider AFD one of the greatest....if not the greatest record of all time.  No one ever says that about UYI.  So, I'm not seeing this "gigantic leap" you are discussing.  Do like the Illusions records?  Yes, I love them...but as a joint effort there are some issues and they are over-produced (not CD over-produced, but over-produced nonetheless). 

At any rate, i was originally going to say what later in their career?  GnR ended in 1993, that's only two years after UYI were released...but I don't wanna hear all the blowback about that, so never mind

[-W.A.R-]

they were never gonna make another Appetite, so the best thing was to go more advanced and overindulge 

far as im concerned they pulled it off, UYI's are 8/10 albums IMHO....if you trim some of the fat, you have another classic  

to me that versatility is what made GNR great....no matter what mood you are in theres a GNR song for it 

Edited June 11, 2016 by -W.A.R-

[yourcrazy]

No.  They probably should of come out a couple years earlier.  At the time it seemed like they were taking forever.  Of course CD made the illusions look like they were put out overnight and I'm still waiting for the follow up to it 

[estranged_85]

No. Everything about GNR´s album releases were in perfect timing except CD.

[abpagain]

Prolly should have waited til 2008...

[coolranchdressing!]

stop overthinking...you're sounding like Axl

but seriously...Illusions came out at a critical point in my existance (pre-teen) when you are at the age of becoming OBSESSED with a band/music...so for selfish reasons I'm glad it came out when it did and how it came out (two albums, sort of schizophrenicin nature)

[RONIN]

Yes. They should have released Illusions 1 in 1990 and Illusions 2 in 1991 -- it would have given the audience plenty of time to digest the material and Illusions 1 would have prepared fans for the prog-rock direction of Illusions 2. 

They waited too long and were engulfed by the grunge wave. Releasing the albums earlier would have given the Illusions more staying power.

[SWINGTRADER]

Had they waited we would have missed it. This band was not going to last regardless of the type of follow up album. 

We would have never heard NR, Estranged, YCBM, Don't Cry, Coma, etc.

You are correct that they should have released another album full of rockers before going ambitious. But this would have only been the correct path had they had a long lifespan. Since that didn't happen, I am glad they took the route they did.

[marlingrl03]

3 hours ago, coolranchdressing! said:

stop overthinking...you're sounding like Axl

but seriously...Illusions came out at a critical point in my existance (pre-teen) when you are at the age of becoming OBSESSED with a band/music...so for selfish reasons I'm glad it came out when it did and how it came out (two albums, sort of schizophrenicin nature)

I agree....I was 14 when UYI came out and I was very obsessed with GNR. Still am ;)....but on a different level when I was a teen! MTV was all about music/bands back then and GNR was a big part of that. Like I mentioned in another thread...when the Nov Rain debuted on MTV,  it was a big freaking deal. Definitely the right time imho. 

[wasted]

Business wise they could have put out 3 cds in the 90s by just putting 10 original songs from UYI and using some Spaghetti to fill up the albums. 

I feel the break up was partly due to them blowing their load in 91. 

YCBM, Don't Cry, Novrain was enough in 91. Fill out the album with :

You Could Be Mine

Double Talking Jive

Live n Let Die

You Ain't the First

Bad Obsession

Back off Bitch

Civil War

Nov Rain

New Rose

Down on the Farm

Don't Cry

Coma

singles: YCBM, DC, NR

in 94:

Right Next Door to Hell

Dead Horse

14 Years

Heaven's Door

Shotgun Blues

Get in the Ring

Dust N Bones

So Fine

Raw Power

Hair of the Dog

Estranged

singles: Dead Horse, Heaven's Door, Estranged

in 98:

Garden of Eden

Pretty Tied Up

The Garden

Since I Don't Have You

I Don't Care About You

Locomotive

Black Leather

Yesterdays

Bad Apples

Ain't it Fun

Breakdown

singles: Pretty Tie Up, Yesterdays, Breakdown

 

[Bono]

5 hours ago, RONIN said:

Yes. They should have released Illusions 1 in 1990 and Illusions 2 in 1991 -- it would have given the audience plenty of time to digest the material and Illusions 1 would have prepared fans for the prog-rock direction of Illusions 2. 

They waited too long and were engulfed by the grunge wave. Releasing the albums earlier would have given the Illusions more staying power.

Absolute nonsense. Revionist history that people continue to perpetuate. This shit is nothing more than urban legend or fabricated hyperbol from the media. It makes a better story when talking about Cobain to say Grunge killed GnR. GnR were still so fucking popular when I graduated that Yesterdays was even voted the grad song. That was in 1996. Grunge didn't engulf or kill GnR in any way. The only thing that stopped GnR was they stopped. That's it. 

[DexAxl]

Axl never wanted to be new AC/DC(forever hard rock not one different song). He likes alot rock genres so he was hugely influenced by alot different artists. AFD was influenced by Aerosmith, AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, and Axl said in some interview he didn't wanted to make another AFD. He always wanted GNR to be that new great rock band, so Illusion albums are influenced by Queen, Elton John. And music differences between Axl, Duff and Slash are one of reasons for band break-up Duff and Slash wanted dirty hard rock like AFD and Axl wanted Chinese Democracy. 

[action]

what career?

[Top-Hatted One]

No. UYI is the #1 reason I became a crazed fan of this band. All their diverse background rolled into one to form a monster band. It's all on display on both illusions

[gnfnrs1972]

4 hours ago, Bono said:

Absolute nonsense. Revionist history that people continue to perpetuate. This shit is nothing more than urban legend or fabricated hyperbol from the media. It makes a better story when talking about Cobain to say Grunge killed GnR. GnR were still so fucking popular when I graduated that Yesterdays was even voted the grad song. That was in 1996. Grunge didn't engulf or kill GnR in any way. The only thing that stopped GnR was they stopped. That's it. 

I totally agree with you. The only thing that killed GNR was itself. It is possible the next album may have not been as big but we will never know. Also UYI was their world wide breakout album. They were so huge that everyone wanted control to protect what they thought the band was or should be and sunk the ship in the process. 

 

[EvanG]

Which song on UYI do you consider trash metal?

I think it's good that they tried to experiment a bit more with the UYI albums instead of trying to do the same thing again... that's boring for (most) musicians. And let's be honest, it's not like they pulled a Radiohead and almost changed genre. UYI still sounded familiar enough to satisfy most fans. 

The fact that there is not a lot of consistency on it is because there were several songwriters in the band and they all wanted their ideas on it and a lot of stuff was written separately from each other and not together like during the Appetite days. In most bands there's only one or two songwriters so there's usually more of a consistency going on then. But I don't see that as a bad thing at all.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by EvanG

[Iron MikeyJ]

Later? No. But I've always felt strongly that they should have mixed the TSI tracks in with the Illusion records and released 3 albums over the course of the 90s. It would have appeared like they lasted a lot longer as a band, without having to actually "work" on new music. First album comes out in 91, second in 93 or 94, third in 96 or 97. They had enough material to do it this way, plus TSI works better intergrated in with the Illusions than it does as a solo disc imo. I actually did a track listing for this idea once, even burned cds to listen to in the car. 

[wasted]

But as I make my UYI lists I always realise that they released a lot of videos in quick succession and played certain songs live over others. The point is would there be enough of a positive buzz in 94 to release Dead Horse, Heavens Door and Estranged as videos/singles? The were playing Estranged before the records came out, could they reslly have waited until 94? 

It's like now with CD II will we ever hear those songs. 

There's also sort of old and new material. 

YCBM, Back Off Bitch, Bad Obsession, Heaven's Door, Don't Cry, November Rain, Civil War all seem more AFD era songs. 

Then there's a few that seem

old school but were new Collabs like RNDTH, Perfect Crime, The Garden have Izzy/Slash combo or West/Slash - they have that AFD danger. 

Then there's newish Izzy songs which all have a I quit farewell vibe. DTJ, Dust n bones, 14 years, Pretty Tied Up. 

Then there's the Slash material - Garden of Eden, Don't Damn Me, Bad apples (a floater), Locomotive, Coma. 

Then there's Axl songs - Dead Horse, Shotgun Blues, Estranged, Breakdown, My World, Yesterdays. 

Duff songs - Get in the Ring, So Fine 

my feeling is in 91 all the AFD era stuff would be great. 

But I might leave the Izzy stuff off about quiting. DTJ is cool tho. 

I'd keep the new danger stuff as well. And you need a Duff song GITR would fit. 

You Could Be Mine

Double Talking Jive

Back off Bitch

Get in the Ring

Bad Obsession

Civil War

Right Next Door to Hell

Don't Cry

Perfect Crime

The Garden

Heaven's Door 

November Rain

This could have been the 91 album. What you have left is basically a record called "Game Over":

My World

Garden of Eden

Dust N Bones

Live N Let Die

Don't Damn Me 

Bad Apples

Dead Horse 

Coma

Pretty Tied Up

14 Years

Yesterdays

Locomotive

Breakdown

Shotgun Blues

So Fine

Estranged

 

 

[HeartbreakerWoman]

2 hours ago, EvanG said:

Which song on UYI do you consider trash metal?

I think it's good that they tried to experiment a bit more with the UYI albums instead of trying to do the same thing again... that's boring for (most) musicians. And let's be honest, it's not like they pulled a Radiohead and almost changed genre. UYI still sounded familiar enough to satisfy most fans. 

The fact that there is not a lot of consistency on it is because there were several songwriters in the band and they all wanted their ideas on it and a lot of stuff was written separately from each other and not together like during the Appetite days. In most bands there's only one or two songwriters so there's usually more of a consistency going on then. But I don't see that as a bad thing at all.

 

I'd say Garden of Eden and Coma are Thrash Metal.

[rocknroll41]

13 hours ago, wasted said:

Business wise they could have put out 3 cds in the 90s by just putting 10 original songs from UYI and using some Spaghetti to fill up the albums. 

I feel the break up was partly due to them blowing their load in 91. 

YCBM, Don't Cry, Novrain was enough in 91. Fill out the album with :

You Could Be Mine

Double Talking Jive

Live n Let Die

You Ain't the First

Bad Obsession

Back off Bitch

Civil War

Nov Rain

New Rose

Down on the Farm

Don't Cry

Coma

singles: YCBM, DC, NR

in 94:

Right Next Door to Hell

Dead Horse

14 Years

Heaven's Door

Shotgun Blues

Get in the Ring

Dust N Bones

So Fine

Raw Power

Hair of the Dog

Estranged

singles: Dead Horse, Heaven's Door, Estranged

in 98:

Garden of Eden

Pretty Tied Up

The Garden

Since I Don't Have You

I Don't Care About You

Locomotive

Black Leather

Yesterdays

Bad Apples

Ain't it Fun

Breakdown

singles: Pretty Tie Up, Yesterdays, Breakdown

 

But what if Izzy still quit in 1991? Would they have been able to use his tunes on the other two records?

[RONIN]

13 hours ago, Bono said:

Absolute nonsense. Revionist history that people continue to perpetuate. This shit is nothing more than urban legend or fabricated hyperbol from the media. It makes a better story when talking about Cobain to say Grunge killed GnR. GnR were still so fucking popular when I graduated that Yesterdays was even voted the grad song. That was in 1996. Grunge didn't engulf or kill GnR in any way. The only thing that stopped GnR was they stopped. That's it. 

Agreed 100% but it seems to be the traditional narrative and whether we like it or not, the history of the band and its grunge counterparts are seen that way by the majority. Perception is reality and unfortunately for gnr fans, this is what the band's history will be perceived as.

It's undeniable that grunge bands had stolen a lot of heat from GnR and were seen as a much cooler (and relevant) alternative by the media -- this can be seen in the many pop culture references of that era in movies and tv shows where grunge references are ubiquitous. How visible was GnR in pop culture from the mid 90's? Nirvana broke up at the same time and remained relevant long after Guns had faded away from the mainstream. It is what it is.

Unfortunately for us, the Illusion albums were lost in the grunge wave (along with many other cool albums of that era like Michael Jackson's Dangerous) -- just bad timing that the grunge bands broke through in late '91. GnR waited too long to release their followup to AFD. These albums would have dominated even a year prior in 1990.

I was a freshman in high school in '96 and in my school there was zero buzz or interest in GnR amongst my friends. Aside from a few friends who were Cobain/metallica devotees, most of us were into stuff like smashing pumpkins, NIN, green day, etc. Punk/post-grunge bands and nu metal ruled that time. Atleast in my circle, GnR were perceived as uncool and an old/outdated band. This is all subjective needless to say but from my memories of that time, buzz about GnR seemed to start picking up only in '99/00 with that End of Days song "Oh My God". That would have been a perfect time to reboot Guns -- they were gone long enough to become retro cool again.

Edited June 11, 2016 by RONIN