Most rape cases are just bad sex, says feminist Germaine Greer

[Towelie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5788581/Feminist-Germaine-Greer-rape-just-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-Hay-Festival.html

 

Rapists should not be jailed as it is not a 'spectacularly violent crime', Germaine Greer claimed yesterday.

Instead the majority should have an 'R' tattooed on their cheek and be made to do community service, the controversial feminist said.

Miss Greer insisted that most rape is just 'bad sex' and poured scorn on the idea that victims can suffer from post-traumatic stress. 

The 79-year-old told the Hay Festival: 'Most rapes don't involve any injury whatsoever. We are told it's one of the most violent crimes in the world – bull****.

But last night former Cabinet minister Priti Patel called Miss Greer's views 'sickening'. 

She said: 'These comments are an affront to the victims of appalling crimes such as rape. We should have zero tolerance of sexual violence.'

And one audience member at Hay, Sherry Pack, said she was so outraged she had to leave. 

'Dreadful ramblings by Germaine Greer … I'm usually happy to listen to opinions different to my own but today after around 20 minutes I had to walk out,' she said.

Miss Greer said: 'Most rape is just lazy, just careless, just insensitive. 

'Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal right, he is raping her. It will never end up in a court of law.

'Instead of thinking of rape as a spectacularly violent crime – and some rapes are – think about it as non-consensual, that is, bad sex. 

'Sex where there is no communication, no tenderness, no mention of love.'

When asked what would be an appropriate punishment for men found guilty of rape, she said: 'Two hundred hours of community service would do me. 

'I have suggested maybe a little tattoo would be a good thing, maybe an R on your hand. I'd prefer it on the cheek really.'

The Australian author said she knew she risked the wrath of feminists when she admitted that after she was raped at a party days before her 19th birthday, she had not been 'angry enough' with her attacker, a rugby-playing public schoolboy. 

She said she had been 'violently raped about as badly as it is possible to be raped if you take in the number of punches'.

She added: 'I was beaten half unconscious. I kept saying 'No' so he hit me, I can't tell you how many times, maybe a dozen.' 

But she did not report the man to police because she believed it would have been a waste of time – although he went on to rape at least one other woman.

'If I had appeared in a police station and complained against this man I would have wasted many, many, many hours, I would have been discredited and everyone would have known my ugly little story that I have shared with you,' she told the audience.

She was 'determined to get over it and not go around for the rest of my life being a rapee'. 

'Feminists would tear my head off for saying this. My feeling when it happened to me was … something awful has happened to him, was he abused as a child? I still don't feel angry enough and I feel ashamed in another way.'

Miss Greer, who has courted controversy since the publication of her first book, The Female Eunuch, in 1970, was speaking at Hay to publicise her forthcoming book On Rape. 

In it, she argues that the crime of rape should be abolished and in its place the assault law be expanded to include sex offences in varying degrees of gravity.

These offences would carry lesser penalties but would require a lower burden of proof concerning consent. 

Miss Greer also appeared to question whether rape victims can suffer from PTSD and said a 'narrative of victimising women' meant they 'wanted to believe they were badly hurt'. 

'The official position now is that 70 per cent of rape victims suffer from PTSD and only 20 per cent of war veterans,' she said. 

'What the hell are you saying? That something that leaves no sign, no injury, no nothing is more damaging to women than seeing your best friend blown up?

'We don't get as badly hurt as you want to believe, you want us to believe that we've been destroyed but we haven't been destroyed we've been annoyed.'

She also renewed her criticism of the MeToo campaign, saying it would be 'extraordinary if it makes any difference at all'. 

The only ones who will benefit from putting Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein on trial are lawyers, she said.

 

[Gracii Guns]

22 minutes ago, Paper plate said:

Its a fact that most women use sex an "weapon".       

It is a fact that I have weaponised sex. With grenades, hand guns and a bayonet. One day I'd like to go nuclear, but my husband says no. 

[Tori72]

I’ll happily sit down with Germaine Greer and tell er about how violent the rapists of several of my friends were to them and how much the survivors struggle from PFSD since then. Their lives are shattered and they need to built everything and themselves up again. Even if there are no bruises.

Why is this so difficult? Rape is rape is violence, not bad sex. Bad sex is sex, not violent, only bad sex. How can a self-acclaimed „feminist“ (she is not!) be so misinformed on this issue?

 

[downzy]

Posts by troll/alt accounts or just terrible people have been removed and the account has been banned.  

------------------------------

On topic: a really old lady who throws around the feminist label and argues against it to garner headlines.  Guess she's got one foot in the grave and still wants attention before she goes.  Anyone who takes stuff like this seriously needs to sort themselves out.  

[Scream of the Butterfly]

She has a history of speaking in favor of female genital mutilation, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.

In her defense, if you read her books and delve into her thinking a bit more, it's usually not quite so bad as you might think if you just go by headlines.

[username]

4 hours ago, Gracii Guns said:

It is a fact that I have weaponised sex. With grenades, hand guns and a bayonet. One day I'd like to go nuclear, but my husband says no. 

I've probably never been this curious in my life as to what something means. 

[Gracii Guns]

45 minutes ago, username said:

I've probably never been this curious in my life as to what something means. 

Check your PMs. 

A ridiculous statement requires a ridiculous reply.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

Greer does sound like an attention seeking old bitch and it's super pathetic. She went full retard. To the point I feel it's almost inappropriate for a discussion to stem from her stupid words because that's like giving her what she wants. We should have much, much harsher sentencing for rapists, pedos etc. Maybe involving chemical castration for repeat offenders. But I am very critical of the MeToo movement and firmly believe accusations of crimes of this nature, unless it's the Vatican or something, should not be made public until proven guilty.

"These offenses would carry lesser penalties but would require a lower burden of proof concerning consent." - Wow. What a fucking terrible idea. Worst of both worlds. I disagree with this notion 100%

I've heard it said that it's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted, but I'm not so sure I agree.

A lot of people have fantasies about castration for rapists and other harsh penalties, but it's not helping the victims a whole lot if in fact the vast majority of rapists are not convicted at all, because the burden of proof is too high.

[action]

either it's rape or it isnt, it's really that simple.

[soon]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

 But I am very critical of the MeToo movement and firmly believe accusations of crimes of this nature, unless it's the Vatican or something, should not be made public until proven guilty.

 

You're a big "Free Speech" supporter. You've recently said something along the lines of "people who are afraid of words should be afraid of themselves." I dont follow how denying the right of free speech to rape victims jives with Free Speech?

[Scream of the Butterfly]

7 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

What do the courts demand for burden of proof? If it's too high I'll agree with you, for what that's worth. I support better healthcare, mental health support in general as well as better support for victims whether they're male or female.

I don't know if there is a fixed standard as to what is required to prove rape in court. However, going by the conviction rates, it seems to me the burden has been set too high.

 

7 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I'm being serious about castration as part of policy, I think in Sweden the rapist can choose castration over jail time. Have at least that or that combined with jail time imo.

The problem with tougher penalties, as I see it, is that it might result in even fewer convictions because of greater reluctance to find the defendant guilty.

 

7 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

"Better that 1,000 guilty men go free rather than condemn an innocent man." Is a reminder of morals, wisdom and humanity. We mustn't lose ourselves to our rage or vengeance or perhaps even worse, bureaucracy. The day every criminal is convicted is the day every person on Earth is convicted. Life is not fair, you cannot control/stop all bad things and wrongdoing from happening 100% of the time unless you create a totalitarian hell running on pseudo-law and injustice - which will absolutely lead to more bad things and wrongdoing. It is a harsh truth that I too struggle to accept sometimes but it is what it is.

There is no perfect solution to this, but it seems preferable to me to take the small risk that innocent man be convicted than to have a situation where the victims rarely receive any justice at all.

[username]

10 hours ago, action said:

either it's rape or it isnt, it's really that simple.

Rape includes an element of being (mostly physically) forced. If you don't want something, you should make that damn clear then and there. 

Making questionable decisions or being talked into something and regretting it later isn't rape. That's a matter of taking responsibility for your own actions. 

That said, actual rape is a horrible crime. As is being lying about being raped and letting an innocent person get sentenced over it. 

I don't believe in the tumblr-feminist definition of "rape". Which, in many cases, I consider a terrible insult towards actual rape victims. 

11 hours ago, Gracii Guns said:

Check your PMs. 

A ridiculous statement requires a ridiculous reply.

For a moment there I thought you were the kinkiest chick that ever lived and felt sorry for your poor husband. 

Although I am tempted to search pornhub for "grenade play" now. 

[action]

rape is a legal term. it isn't defined as what a feminists says, or anyone else, but what the law says

small little detail there that easily gets overlooked

[username]

13 minutes ago, action said:

rape is a legal term. it isn't defined as what a feminists says, or anyone else, but what the law says

small little detail there that easily gets overlooked

Couldn't agree more. But that does get overlooked a lot these days. Generally by idiots. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by username

[SoulMonster]

Are feminists claiming rape is something different than the legal definition?

[KiraMPD]

55 minutes ago, action said:

rape is a legal term. it isn't defined as what a feminists says, or anyone else, but what the law says

small little detail there that easily gets overlooked

But the legal definition of rape varies from country to country.

[username]

Statistically, 50% of people involved in rape enjoy it. With gangrape the percentage is even higher. 

 

I'm going to hell, right? 

Edited June 1, 2018 by username

[alfierose]

Greer seems to word things very badly these days and there does seem to be an element of being controversial for the sake of it sometimes. I think she's always been that way, sometimes it works and sometimes it backfires.

However there is a feminist school of thought that society places too much emphasis on the victimhood status of non violent rape due to patriarchal, medieval ideas about women being worthless if they are unpure or damaged goods. This leads to the expectation that rape victims behave in a certain way and accusations that they lied if they don't continue their lives being sexless, fearful and traumatised beings. It also gives power to rapists who may get further kicks from the idea that a women is forever destroyed (see numerous popular porn terms that fit this narrative).

I think Greer falls into that school of thought and I think the argument above has merit. Women should not be expected to espouse victimhood because of one bad experience. However as usual she's being quite insensitive about it and extrapolating her own experience and feelings onto everyone else.

[alfierose]

40 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

1. Regarding rape victims or even just women who are simply no longer virgins as impure, worthless, damaged goods is obviously extremely sexist, vicious and cruel. Surely we all know that? Who's disagreeing with that in 2018? Do most/all men inherently adhere to ideas from medieval times and I'm an exception? Do you realise that sounds a bit condescending and sexist towards men?

Feminists tend to make the mistake of oversimplifying, unappreciating and disregarding masculinity as entirely outdated bullshit. I don't think many feminists understand what it is to naturally be a man and have the instinctive, core, fundamental purpose to protect women. All that good of being a man seems to be lumped together with the bad and classified as the same or similar.

Imagine if you asked why do you think women do such and such and I responded "Because fuckin' medievel times, duh!"

2. Does it, though? Actually point to the retards who think like this and I'll join you in condemning them. Plot twist; shrugging and saying #Patriarchy - isn't good enough.

3. I agree that this feeling of power should not be given to the rapists and that it's super positive if/when a victim can recover from such an ordeal.
 

No I don't think that most men have medieval attitudes but you do see virgin/whore, humiliation/ destroyed themes featured a lot in porn so maybe it's not completely gone away.

Also you've taken what I said above as a literal endorsement, whilst I think it's a debate worthy argument I was mostly explaining the school of thought that Greer was pitching from. You don't need to extrapolate a discussion about rapists to being an attack on all men or masculinity. We all realise NAMALT and it shouldn't need to prefix every discussion.

If you think it's sexist twaddle that's fine, I could have worded it it better but no one is suggesting that western men literally follow medieval codes but that there is maybe a hangover in attitudes towards rape that still persist in culture. I think there is still a victim shame element to rape and sexual abuse that isn't present in the same way as someone who is physically beaten, this applies to victims of both sexes of course and is part of what prevents many from reporting a crime.

[Whiskey Rose]

Also, kind of carrying on Alfierose's point,  I think we need to keep in mind that people deal with trauma in different ways...I think it is very telling that she talks about her experience in such detail..until we got to that story I was like, Whaaaa? But then when she told of her own violent experience it suddenly made sense. What she is doing is putting a different "narrative" to what happened to her..so that she could find a way to deal with it, and move on with her life. Some people use years and years of talk therapy to try and get over a bad experience..and relive it over and over. But what she has done, is take something that happened to her that was out of her control, and take control of the story.. spin it around, so that she could perhaps get rid of any debilitating emotional affects that could hinder her moving forward with her life in a positive way. People can become very adept that this, changing the narrative of something so that you don't have to think about it any more.  And who's to say which way is best for an individual? I think she has told herself this enough times, that she believes it, and is in her own way, trying to help someone move on as well. It's certainly radical, and maybe she shouldn't generalize and universalize this view, but maybe we shouldn't be so harsh in our judgements of her, especially in light of the fact that she herself went through it, and found a way to cope.

[soon]

Lots of interesting points being raised on Greers position. I think this article, and the broader subject, is hindered by the monolithic presentation of the concept of "Feminism" in mainstream discourse. I think people are doing a great job unpacking the vastly different forms of Feminist tendencies while addressing Greeer. In my world theres Anarcha-Feminists, Eco-Feminists, Feminist Christian Anarchists, Christian Feminists, Womanists, Womynists, 2nd Wavers, Progressives, Radical Feminists, Lip Stick Feminists, FaceBook Feminists and the quickly defining yet unnamed Post 3rd Wavers. Within those types there are theories that are sometimes shared and sometimes rejected among groups. Issues like de-constructionalism, re-constructionalism, intersectionality, class, identity, cis-only-spaces, trans-inclusivity, sex positivity, futurism, etc.

Seems like Greer is taking her approach to reclaiming the narrative and suggesting it be encoded into law? If thats the case I disagree with her very much. But I think folks analysis has enriched what can be taken from this article.

 

[alfierose]

2 hours ago, soon said:

Lots of interesting points being raised on Greers position. I think this article, and the broader subject, is hindered by the monolithic presentation of the concept of "Feminism" in mainstream discourse. I think people are doing a great job unpacking the vastly different forms of Feminist tendencies while addressing Greeer. In my world theres Anarcha-Feminists, Eco-Feminists, Feminist Christian Anarchists, Christian Feminists, Womanists, Womynists, 2nd Wavers, Progressives, Radical Feminists, Lip Stick Feminists, FaceBook Feminists and the quickly defining yet unnamed Post 3rd Wavers. Within those types there are theories that are sometimes shared and sometimes rejected among groups. Issues like de-constructionalism, re-constructionalism, intersectionality, class, identity, cis-only-spaces, trans-inclusivity, sex positivity, futurism, etc.

Seems like Greer is taking her approach to reclaiming the narrative and suggesting it be encoded into law? If thats the case I disagree with her very much. But I think folks analysis has enriched what can be taken from this article.

 

This is why women like Greer are valuable to feminism even if you often think 'what the fuck, really Germaine?'  She and others like her act as a catalyst for debate and sometimes out of that debate comes something useful regardless of whether there is agreement on whatever controversial views have been made in the first place. I went to see her on a talking tour about 7 years back and I definitely had a few WTF moments but she is is an engaging and interesting speaker even if you don't 100% agree with her views.

[killuridols]

I was going to write "what a lunatic, shush her" until I read @alfierose point of view and now I can, more or less, try to digest what this woman is saying.

Nonetheless, I think her words should not trascend the rooms of academy (or wherever place she was speaking at), because victims of rape, I think most of them, are not prepared to listen to such insensitive things. I agree that a person should not be an eternal victim of what happened to them and are free to find their own coping mechanisms. But trying to re-define what rape is and lessen rapists punishment is plain wrong, in my opinion.

Also, rape and abuse is not exclusive of adult women. It happens, more than often, to children (both girls and boys), and that's way more difficult to deal with.

 

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, soon said:

I think people are doing a great job unpacking the vastly different forms of Feminist tendencies while addressing Greeer. In my world theres Anarcha-Feminists, Eco-Feminists, Feminist Christian Anarchists, Christian Feminists, Womanists, Womynists, 2nd Wavers, Progressives, Radical Feminists, Lip Stick Feminists, FaceBook Feminists and the quickly defining yet unnamed Post 3rd Wavers. Within those types there are theories that are sometimes shared and sometimes rejected among groups. Issues like de-constructionalism, re-constructionalism, intersectionality, class, identity, cis-only-spaces, trans-inclusivity, sex positivity, futurism, etc.

I think this kind of fragmention happens to all social movements, at some point. But IMO, there's always an essence that is common to all the sub-groups of a whole.

In the case of feminism, the basis is freedom for women and equal rights: to move around in our own terms, to have the same opportunities as men in all aspects, and to have a right to decide on our own bodies.

 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

She's not handling what happened to her In a radical way, she's letting it consume her to the point she says rape isn't violent.

As long as the definition of rape is sex without consent, then rape doesn't have to be violent, does it?