No Holds Barred Thread - Post Anything That Is On Your Mind, Even the Politically Incorrect!

[Gibsonfender2323]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I didn't know quite what to say to that! It is rare I'm speechless on here but that is one of those occasions.

It’s a waste of time to argue anymore. Yet we are the racist ones 🙄

[downzy]

Maybe I'll travel to Saudi Arabia or Iran and start hanging posters of Muhammed.  The imagery means nothing to me.  Who cares if it deeply offends the locals.  Their problem, not mine.  

All this effort to defend the Swastika.

This is why we can't have nice things and guys like Trump gets elected.  

[Gibsonfender2323]

https://m.timesofindia.com/calcutta-times/I-wont-change-my-name-Swastika/articleshow/1409705.cms

[Gibsonfender2323]

4 minutes ago, downzy said:

Maybe I'll travel to Saudi Arabia or Iran and start hanging posters of Muhammed.  The imagery means nothing to me.  Who cares if it deeply offends the locals.  Their problem, not mine.  

All this effort to defend the Swastika.

This is why we can't have nice things and guys like Trump gets elected.  

Or it  should be seen as the Swastika was in use for THOUSANDS of Years and the Nazis culturally appropriated a Sacred Religious Symbol to the majority of the earths population for their Evil Purposes?

 

 

How do you think all the 1.72 BILLION Hindus feel that their religion was used for this?

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Gibsonfender2323

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

It’s a waste of time to argue anymore. Yet we are the racist ones 🙄

Apparently Indians called ''prosperity'' should change their name for fear of being thought of as an ''asshole'' when visiting Canada because a bunch of people in Canada are too stupid about linguistics and history and might get offended!

That is what he is essentially saying!

Edited September 26, 2020 by DieselDaisy

[downzy]

Just now, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Or it  should be seen as the Swastika was in use for THOUSANDS of Years and the Nazis culturally appropriated a Sacred Religious Symbol to the majority of the earths population? 
 

 

That would be fine if Nazis didn't continue to use it. 

Charlottesville, Virginia, 2017.

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, downzy said:

This is why we can't have nice things and guys like Trump gets elected.  

What on earth relevance is that?

[EvanG]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

As I have said, why should we be sustaining offense based on ignorance? This seems to be an entirely anti-intellectual way of proceeding through life, and not dissimilar to how Judaism itself was perceived within European antisemitism, involving cultural misunderstandings and mistranslation! 

Think I already answered that,

 

Look, you are technically right about all of this. I'm just trying to look at it through the eyes of certain minorities. As I've said before, if I came from some Asian country and I am opening a store in Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin or wherever, I would think twice about putting a swastika on my window. Even if I wouldn't be wrong because in my culture it means something positive and that's all I mean by it. Speaking of ignorance, it would be ignorant not realizing that I am in a city where the swastika was used everywhere for many years and where millions of people died who had to look a that symbol for many years. You can argue as much as you want about people being ignorant about it and you may be right, but that doesn't mean it won't provoke strong emotions within a lot of people because of what that same symbol represented through those dreadful years in the war and Nazi Germany.

[downzy]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Apparently Indians called ''prosperity'' should change their name for fear of being thought of as an ''asshole'' when visiting Canada because a bunch of people in Canada are too stupid about linguistics and history and might get offended!

That is what he is essentially saying!

I didn't say change their name.  Many of Asian-born individuals go by a different English name.  I've dated two girls born in South East Asia and two born in India.  All of them went by an English name that wasn't their birth name.  

But look, we're moving the goal posts here.  We're talking about towns and places in Canada, not people born in a region where the name and symbol mean something completely different.  

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, EvanG said:

Look, you are technically right about all of this. I'm just trying to look at it through the eyes of certain minorities. As I've said before, if I came from some Asian country and I am opening a store in Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin or wherever, I would think twice about putting a swastika on my window. Even if I wouldn't be wrong because in my culture it means something positive and that's all I mean by it. Speaking of ignorance, it would be ignorant not realizing that I am in a city where the swastika was used everywhere for many years and where millions of people died who had to look a that symbol for many years. You can argue as much as you want about people being ignorant about it and you may be right, but that doesn't mean it won't provoke strong emotions within a lot of people because of what that same symbol represented through those dreadful years in the war and Nazi Germany.

You'd be presumably prohibited. Doesn't the European mainland have rigorous anti-Nazi laws about display of the swastika and affiliated symbolism?

[downzy]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

What on earth relevance is that?

Not much. Just the fact that there are people out there who want to spend their time defending a highly inflammatory symbol makes it understandable how someone like Trump has supporters.  That's all.  

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

I didn't say change their name.  Many of Asian-born individuals go by a different English name.  I've dated two girls born in South East Asia and two born in India.  All of them went by an English name that wasn't their birth name.  

But look, we're moving the goal posts here.  We're talking about towns and places in Canada, not people born in a region where the name and symbol mean something completely different.  

Of course, but I was utterly shocked at what you said in reply to that question. As I said, I was speechless, and I'm rarely speechless. 

[soon]

Heard an interview with a woman named Isis. People wanted her to change her name and she had this to say (paraphrased) 

“Isis isn’t even the name of Daesh. You want me to change my name becuase western intelligence have created the accronym ISIS, when meanwhile ISIL is the accurate translation.”

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

You'd be presumably prohibited. Doesn't the European mainland have rigorous anti-Nazi laws about display of the swastika and affiliated symbolism?

It is in my country, but I'm not sure if an Asian version of it isn't allowed either.

[DieselDaisy]

8 minutes ago, downzy said:

Not much. Just the fact that there are people out there who want to spend their time defending a highly inflammatory symbol makes it understandable how someone like Trump has supporters.  That's all.  

It is not so much defending a highly inflammatory symbol - nobody is defending Neonazi usage of the Blutfahne here, and to pursue that argument is an absolute straw man - but highlighting that the conflation of an ancient and benevolent word/symbol with that highly inflammatory symbol is erroneous and western-centric. 

[downzy]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is not so much defending a highly inflammatory symbol - nobody is defending Neonazi usage of the Blutfahne here, and to pursue that argument is an absolute straw man - but highlighting that the conflation of an ancient and benevolent word/symbol with that highly inflammatory symbol is erroneous and western-centric. 

Yes, but we're talking about western-centric connotations with respect to a town in Canada.  The inclusion of the Asian association is irrelevant to how the thoughts and feelings of the vast majority of Canadians and Americans who view the name and symbol in the pejorative sense.  

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

Yes, but we're talking about western-centric connotations with respect to a town in Canada.  The inclusion of the Asian association is irrelevant to how the thoughts and feelings of the vast majority of Canadians and Americans who view the name and symbol in the pejorative sense.  

(I am going around in circles here)

The town was named 1907-08.

The Nazis were founded 1919-20.

Besides, it is merely the Sanskrit wording (''good luck'') we are discussing here. To the best of my knowledge the town does not have a Blutfahne as a civic emblem. 

In a weird way you are actually awarding the Nazis with too much respect by continuing with their perversion of the Swastika! You are going along with their overall anti-intellectualism - their lack of respect for antiquity and eastern cultures - and almost awarding their mystical hocus pocus with renewed legitimacy.

We shouldn't be giving the Nazis that much credit in 2020 by continuing with their imbecility. We are better than this. We should all know a lot more about eastern culture and religion. We should probably be fluent in more languages such as Sanskrit. And we shouldn't see history through the prism of 1933-45 European history.

[Ace Nova]

21 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is not so much defending a highly inflammatory symbol - nobody is defending Neonazi usage of the Blutfahne here, and to pursue that argument is an absolute straw man - but highlighting that the conflation of an ancient and benevolent word/symbol with that highly inflammatory symbol is erroneous and western-centric. 

I've done some research on it as well and recently discovered that it's been primarily a Hindu symbol and has been used for thousands of years prior to Hitler taking it over.

The real question is (and I'm sure you can tell us) is why did Hitler (or the nazis) use that particular symbol?

 

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

(I am going around in circles here)

The town was named 1907-08.

The Nazis were founded 1919-20.

Besides, it is merely the Sanskrit wording (''good luck'') we are discussing here. To the best of my knowledge the town does not have a Blutfahne as a civic emblem. 

In a weird way you are actually awarding the Nazis with too much respect by continuing with their perversion of the Swastika! You are going along with their overall anti-intellectualism - their lack of respect for antiquity and eastern cultures - and almost awarding their mystical hocus pocus with renewed legitimacy.

We shouldn't be giving the Nazis that much credit in 2020 by continuing with their imbecility. We are better than this. We should all know a lot more about eastern culture and religion. We should probably be fluent in more languages such as Sanskrit. And we shouldn't see history through the prism of 1933-45 European history.

It doesn't matter when the town was named.  The symbol and term has been corrupted.  Almost everyone in North America and Western Europe feel this way. 

You do realize that Nazis still use the swastika, right?  It's not as if its association with Nazism ended in 1945.  

Maybe we should be better by not invoking the worst memories and moments in human history through the employment of the name and imagery of that time.  Your concern for the fairness of a symbol at the expense of the offence seems so perverse to me.  Why do you give a fuck what so many people see and feel when they see the symbol?  You're right it had a previous connotation, but that connotation died along with the 6 million Jews the Nazis killed.  

[soon]

In the town of Dildo, Newfoundland, there is a brew pub called Dildo Brewing Co.

Any guesses what their tap handles are? 

[Swampfox]

8 minutes ago, downzy said:

It doesn't matter when the town was named.  The symbol and term has been corrupted.  Almost everyone in North America and Western Europe feel this way. 

You do realize that Nazis still use the swastika, right?  It's not as if its association with Nazism ended in 1945.  

Maybe we should be better by not invoking the worst memories and moments in human history through the employment of the name and imagery of that time.  Your concern for the fairness of a symbol at the expense of the offence seems so perverse to me.  Why do you give a fuck what so many people see and feel when they see the symbol?  You're right it had a previous connotation, but that connotation died along with the 6 million Jews the Nazis killed.  

So if the white nationalists start using rainbow flags to represent their cause gays will need to change their colors?

[downzy]

6 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

So if the white nationalists start using rainbow flags to represent their cause gays will need to change their colors?

If white nationalists killed millions under the banner of the rainbow flag, I would imagine the gay community would be fine with finding a new flag to fly.  

But do you really suppose white nationalists are about to co-opt the rainbow flag?  Considering its strong associations with the gay community, this doesn't seem like even a remote possibility.

Which again underscores my point.  Meaning and association is relative.  Words and symbols can change over time due to circumstance.  

[Len Cnut]

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For the same reason if I heard Indians using the n word even if it had no negative connotation in India. I have my conditioning, they have theirs. I mean, it’s really that hard to understand why a symbol that means pure evil to me and a billion other people might make one uncomfortable regardless of its benign significance to another culture?

Well there's a difference there because n!gger means n!gger in English or Hindi, whereas the swastika is a religious symbol that simply means something else and has meant something else since way beyond the Nazi's.  And honestly, I don't think the Hindu usage does make anyone else uncomfortable.  Never heard it mentioned before now, its not something the Simon Wiesenthal Centre or any Jewish group or committee has highlighted and why would they, because it simply doesn't mean the same thing.  See The Sex Pistols using it, THAT is offensive in the manner you are talking about because its being used in the context and form of the Nazi one, Hindu's simply aren't doing that.  And it was there's first.

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Fair enough, but again, we’re talking about western society. For most people here it is a sign of evil. If people who move here choose not to respect that, well, that’s kind of a dick move. 

but it isn't referring to The Shoah or Nazi Germany in any way, why is it a dick move, my Mum has a picture of The Shahada, the declaration of Islamic faith in Arabic script framed on the wall in her house, is she being insensitive or incendiary because its the same thing ISIS have on their flag?  

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Why is tolerance required by the majority culture when the item at hand provokes immense pain and hurt for most people living in one area?  Sorry, but if anyone should be considered intolerant it’s those who continue to display a symbol meaning hate to so many in a country where the dominant connotation is known and accepted. A Jewish family living in Canada or other western nations shouldn’t have to be told to be more tolerant of those who choose to ignore the profoundly painful that symbol has come to recognize hate and evil.  

Because the right to freely practise ones religion (an extremely peaceful one at that) is the right of every human being living in a free and just society.  And also, the symbol, in its Hindu context, simply is not the same thing as the Nazi one and not offensive either, as evidenced by the fact that there has never been anything like any kind of uproar about their use of their own symbol.

Quote

I agree, but imagine having a swastika symbol that looks exactly like the Nazi one, painted on a store-window in a country where entire minorities have been murdered, and someone is offended or upset by it.... it's too easy to say... ''well, this means something good in my culture, so whether your family was killed 75 years ago by a nation who happened to use the same symbol, tough luck''. If the symbol is different and used in a country that doesn't associate it with the Nazi crimes, it's obviously different, but we were talking about Canada, a country associated with the war and where a lot of minorities live whose families were deeply affected by it.

it doesn't look exactly like the Nazi one, the Nazi one is turned on its side and inverted:

[Len Cnut]

I'm actually quite astounded by this, so there are people out there who walk past an Indian cornershop, see Ranjit behind the counter on the 17th hour of his shift, with a framed picture of Lord Shiva on the wall and the incense burning, see the swastika beneath it and think 'fuckin' Nazi's man, in our neighbourhood, well I'll be a suck egg mule!'.

[Dazey]

5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Well there's a difference there because n!gger means n!gger in English or Hindi, whereas the swastika is a religious symbol that simply means something else and has meant something else since way beyond the Nazi's.  And honestly, I don't think the Hindu usage does make anyone else uncomfortable.  Never heard it mentioned before now, its not something the Simon Wiesenthal Centre or any Jewish group or committee has highlighted and why would they, because it simply doesn't mean the same thing.  See The Sex Pistols using it, THAT is offensive in the manner you are talking about because its being used in the context and form of the Nazi one, Hindu's simply aren't doing that.  And it was there's first.

but it isn't referring to The Shoah or Nazi Germany in any way, why is it a dick move, my Mum has a picture of The Shahada, the declaration of Islamic faith in Arabic script framed on the wall in her house, is she being insensitive or incendiary because its the same thing ISIS have on their flag?  

Because the right to freely practise ones religion (an extremely peaceful one at that) is the right of every human being living in a free and just society.  And also, the symbol, in its Hindu context, simply is not the same thing as the Nazi one and not offensive either, as evidenced by the fact that there has never been anything like any kind of uproar about their use of their own symbol.

it doesn't look exactly like the Nazi one, the Nazi one is turned on its side and inverted:

If we’re going to invoke ancient traditions and cultural norms I’m bringing back some Ancient Greek and I’m off out on the nonce. I’m sure that’ll stand up in court.