Axl burning a Nirvana hat with the band playing Smells Like Teen Spirit in the background

[Caught_in_a_Coma]

That was in Toronto, I was there.

That is so cool

[Tom2112]

Bitch move, why would you be so shook because some skinny fuckin' loser (as Axl and GnR fans concluded Kurt was) doesn't wanna play with you? Why act so fuckin' shook about it in public? Classic fuckin' insecurity case, you're in a massive fuckin' band with a massive fuckin' fanbase, no one can damage your position in regards to what you are and who you are and how people feel about you but you yourself, why go fuckin' chasing this little fuckin' band and make a point of fuckin' insulting them...for what, whats it achieve? It's like the heavyweight champ having a go at the number 8 or number 7 contender cuz he made disparaging remarks about you, a champ with class doesn't do it, he just continues on being the champ and letting the little underlings murmur on beneath him and let his record and his continuing maintainence of that record speak for itself.

The truth is those comments deeply bothered Axl and got him right at his core, because there's nothing that hurts a man like thats feelings more than being thought of as uncool, you can tell that in the way he tries (or tried back then) so hard to act cool. So what do you do? You switch it on em like 'Kurt Cobain thinks he's too cool to bring his rock n roll to you'.

The same people that he was tryna hang with and get on side with and be all buddy buddy with, once they tell him where to go he's like mocking the 'alternative' and the 'alternative lifestyle'...so you try and hang out with the cool kids but when they tell you to fuck off you run off in tears going 'i didn't wannabe a part of your stupid club ANYWAY!'

For Axl it took effort and a deliberate to push for him to become or to seem like what Kurt Cobain was effortlessly...and thats an artist. Axl had to reinvent himself to be that, to run away and hide in a studio trying to figure out a bunch of useless machinery, take all his gay glam gear off and put some glasses on and get all serious. Kurt was an artist when he was living in a furniture-less shithole making paintings and trying to catch his escaped turtles.

It's a bitch move, flat out, it's girlie, it's petty and as the bigger factor in the equation its kinda like you bringing yourself down a notch or two.

Both of them were little bitches. Also, the whole "kurt was a real artist" part? You don't think Axl was complicated and messed up before he heard Nirvana? Kurt was a musician just like any other, he wrote some great songs, some not so great songs... wanted fame, got too much and decided to take himself out of the equation. If he was honest with himself from day one and said "I want to be in the biggest band in the world" which he did, there's a good chance he'd still be around today. Kurt was a punk snob who thought it was cool to shrug off money and success because it didn't fit in with the hipster scene he originated from.

[wasted]

Noel is cross between an electrician and an injured footballer. He's not much of a rebel or tough guy really. Liam maybe is more of a rebel type. Sibling Rivalry highlighted that really. Liam was into all the rock n roll antics and Noel was being a boring old man. But he did go on a bender in the US and was found by McGhee in a hotel listening to Zepp with a big pile of coke.

Edited September 10, 2015 by wasted

[Tom2112]

And Axl was bent out of shape because he made a private attempt to help a relatively new band, that relatively new band didn't politely decline... they went to Kerrang! and music tabloid magazines with statements saying Guns N' Roses are shit, and that he begged them to tour with them. Any person would be bent out of shape if they put out their hand and for no real reason it was spat on. It's professional courtesy to not throw other bands under the bus, unless of course you don't care for that and you're just trying to make some headlines. Say what you will, but Kurt knew all too well that a feud with Axl would be great for his career, and he knew that Axl was hot head enough to fall into his trap.

[smoke]

I like Nirvana, but Cobain's life puts lie to everything he claimed he and his band stood for. He was just as full of antics, stage bravado, and ego-driven bullshit as anyone that came before. And so he didn't wear makeup (mostly) - like he didn't have a costume? His whole look and demeanor and posing and ultimately suicide - you couldn't write something more rote than that. Every new guy on the scene is somehow better and realer than the current guy, but no one lasts forever, and most don't even last that long.

[Bono]

You really think so? Axl understood theatrics and being a successful frontman IMO. The kings of establishment rock (and the last great rock band of a certain rock era) torching an emblem representing their competition (who liked to get a rise out of Axl) on their historic world tour doesn't seem too much like an emotionally (the way I read your use of the word pussy came off as 'doing emotional things') whiny thing to do. Sounds like a strong demonstration of strength in response to critics

Jesus, do you really believe this?

You don't believe Axl was theatrical?

[Len Cnut]

Both of them were little bitches.

Agreed but as a criticism of Kurt it doesn't really work because Kurt wasn't putting on some fuckin' phoney masculine hard nut act, he never claimed to be anything more than a bitch to begin with, which is why i pointed it out in reference to Axl and not Kurt. Kurt wasn't going about offering people out, givin' it large, Kurt would be the first person to tell you he was a bitch

Also, the whole "kurt was a real artist" part? You don't think Axl was complicated and messed up before he heard Nirvana?

I don't understand the correlation between being 'complicated and messed up' and my observation that Kurt was 'a real artist'. I just meant that Kurt was a painter, a sculpter, he was forever making shit even when it weren't music, he kinda lived and breathed art...as opposed to Axl who was this kinda sleaze rocker at one point but then he suddenly wants to be this plaid shirt and glasses wearing thoughtful piano player guy...there's been lots of these sort of signposts regarding Axl that show kind of a confused guy, sometimes he's all Mr Rock n Roll, then he's totally rejecting those ideals for being a thoughtful bohemian kinda guy...then he gets pegged by those kind of people and suddenly he's Mr fuckin' I hate Alternative...Kurt was kind of a guitar players arty-crafty weenie...and thats all he ever did. But basically all I meant was that Kurt was a lot more into art, all kinds of it, not some observation about whether he (or either of em) were or weren't messed up, I'm not sure what that would have to do with anything either.

Kurt was a musician just like any other, he wrote some great songs, some not so great songs... wanted fame, got too much and decided to take himself out of the equation.

Fair observation, i can respect that. Not sure i totally agree but fair enough.

If he was honest with himself from day one and said "I want to be in the biggest band in the world" which he did, there's a good chance he'd still be around today.

Fuck knows but again, possibly.

Kurt was a punk snob who thought it was cool to shrug off money and success because it didn't fit in with the hipster scene he originated from.

Or you could say he was the one out of that pack that embraced success and signed to a major record label and made some money. There's a lot of misapprehension about this stuff, he's on record as saying he wanted to make a comfortable living out of making music and be able to live well and travel etc, he just didn't want superstardom which I'm sure more than a few people can understand. But then I guess you don't get to pick and choose these things.

But then see, the difference here is Kurt Cobain accepted these criticisms of himself, in fact he was often the ones to make them about himself, these aren't things that people kinda pieced together as a conclusion about him that he refuted or denied, he was the first to point out the contradiction between their indie ideals and signing to a major record label, his whole thing was that he was a guy with a certain 'punk' pedigree that actually wanted to make pop music

And Axl was bent out of shape because he made a private attempt to help a relatively new band, that relatively new band didn't politely decline... they went to Kerrang! and music tabloid magazines with statements saying Guns N' Roses are shit, and that he begged them to tour with them. Any person would be bent out of shape if they put out their hand and for no real reason it was spat on. It's professional courtesy to not throw other bands under the bus, unless of course you don't care for that and you're just trying to make some headlines. Say what you will, but Kurt knew all too well that a feud with Axl would be great for his career, and he knew that Axl was hot head enough to fall into his trap.

I do not agree with that at all, part of the thing in the culture that Kurt came from was certain bands were just a bit of a fuckin' joke and people took the piss out of em, with the 70s punks it was people like Rod Stewart and Pink Floyd, would you say The Sex Pistols rode Rod Stewarts coattails to stardom? Or that they were just stating the opinion of a pretty sizeable majority, that those bands and that music was a bit up it's own arse and a bit shite?

Was Noel and Liam riding the coattails of the fuckin' scores of bands they said were shite and thats what got them fame? They got fame for the same reason that Nirvana did, bangin' fuckin' albums, nobody went out and brought a Nirvana album because they were slagging off Axl Rose, thats just silliness.

Appeared on Rollingstone mag and was signed under Geffin(who else was signed under them?)

With a T shirt on saying Corporate Magazines Suck...it's kinda basic as irony goes but think about it boys and girls

Edited September 10, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Len Cnut]

I wouldn't know, it's all books and telly to me, i don't presume to know what was going on in some strangers head, you might be right, i just think it's an awful awful awful thing, saddening beyond belief.

[Tom2112]

Both of them were little bitches.

Agreed but as a criticism of Kurt it doesn't really work because Kurt wasn't putting on some fuckin' phoney masculine hard nut act, he never claimed to be anything more than a bitch to begin with, which is why i pointed it out in reference to Axl and not Kurt. Kurt wasn't going about offering people out, givin' it large, Kurt would be the first person to tell you he was a bitch

Also, the whole "kurt was a real artist" part? You don't think Axl was complicated and messed up before he heard Nirvana?

I don't understand the correlation between being 'complicated and messed up' and my observation that Kurt was 'a real artist'. I just meant that Kurt was a painter, a sculpter, he was forever making shit even when it weren't music, he kinda lived and breathed art...as opposed to Axl who was this kinda sleaze rocker at one point but then he suddenly wants to be this plaid shirt and glasses wearing thoughtful piano player guy...there's been lots of these sort of signposts regarding Axl that show kind of a confused guy, sometimes he's all Mr Rock n Roll, then he's totally rejecting those ideals for being a thoughtful bohemian kinda guy...then he gets pegged by those kind of people and suddenly he's Mr fuckin' I hate Alternative...Kurt was kind of a guitar players arty-crafty weenie...and thats all he ever did. But basically all I meant was that Kurt was a lot more into art, all kinds of it, not some observation about whether he (or either of em) were or weren't messed up, I'm not sure what that would have to do with anything either.

Kurt was a musician just like any other, he wrote some great songs, some not so great songs... wanted fame, got too much and decided to take himself out of the equation.

Fair observation, i can respect that. Not sure i totally agree but fair enough.

If he was honest with himself from day one and said "I want to be in the biggest band in the world" which he did, there's a good chance he'd still be around today.

Fuck knows but again, possibly.

Kurt was a punk snob who thought it was cool to shrug off money and success because it didn't fit in with the hipster scene he originated from.

Or you could say he was the one out of that pack that embraced success and signed to a major record label and made some money. There's a lot of misapprehension about this stuff, he's on record as saying he wanted to make a comfortable living out of making music and be able to live well and travel etc, he just didn't want superstardom which I'm sure more than a few people can understand. But then I guess you don't get to pick and choose these things.

But then see, the difference here is Kurt Cobain accepted these criticisms of himself, in fact he was often the ones to make them about himself, these aren't things that people kinda pieced together as a conclusion about him that he refuted or denied, he was the first to point out the contradiction between their indie ideals and signing to a major record label, his whole thing was that he was a guy with a certain 'punk' pedigree that actually wanted to make pop music

And Axl was bent out of shape because he made a private attempt to help a relatively new band, that relatively new band didn't politely decline... they went to Kerrang! and music tabloid magazines with statements saying Guns N' Roses are shit, and that he begged them to tour with them. Any person would be bent out of shape if they put out their hand and for no real reason it was spat on. It's professional courtesy to not throw other bands under the bus, unless of course you don't care for that and you're just trying to make some headlines. Say what you will, but Kurt knew all too well that a feud with Axl would be great for his career, and he knew that Axl was hot head enough to fall into his trap.

I do not agree with that at all, part of the thing in the culture that Kurt came from was certain bands were just a bit of a fuckin' joke and people took the piss out of em, with the 70s punks it was people like Rod Stewart and Pink Floyd, would you say The Sex Pistols rode Rod Stewarts coattails to stardom? Or that they were just stating the opinion of a pretty sizeable majority, that those bands and that music was a bit up it's own arse and a bit shite?

Was Noel and Liam riding the coattails of the fuckin' scores of bands they said were shite and thats what got them fame? They got fame for the same reason that Nirvana did, bangin' fuckin' albums, nobody went out and brought a Nirvana album because they were slagging off Axl Rose, thats just silliness.

Appeared on Rollingstone mag and was signed under Geffin(who else was signed under them?)

With a T shirt on saying Corporate Magazines Suck...it's kinda basic as irony goes but think about it boys and girls

I see, I thought you were talking about music not sculptures etc.

As for Axls fashion changing, he was deep in the 80s and he went with the times... i'm not sure there's much more to read from that. He was just as often just in his hot pants and boots... I don't think Kurt was rocking that particular look (Kurt didn't have the body for it ).

Riding the coat tails might be selling Nirvana a little short, they got their fame because hey were a good band. The Sex Pistols were a manufactured band, their manager was a smart guy so I wouldn't say it's outside of the realms of reality that they used old Rod's success against him.

I think we have a different way of looking at things, I'm obviously entertained by bands bickering but I much prefer when it's kept behind the scenes. I know that GnR were not Kurt's cup of tea, and that he had problems with their lyrics and some of Axls actions. I could see why kurt making a statement about GnR and their sexual objectification of women etc. could be seen as a positive and solid argument... there's no defending Axl in regard to the domestic abuse charges (was it proven, or was it a settlement), although I believe he can sing about whatever he wants within his music... well not quite anything... but what he sang about was not very offensive.

[Len Cnut]

I don't think Kurt was rocking that particular look (Kurt didn't have the body for it ).

I'd've paid money to see that actually

I think we have a different way of looking at things, I'm obviously entertained by bands bickering but I much prefer when it's kept behind the scenes. I know that GnR were not Kurt's cup of tea, and that he had problems with their lyrics and some of Axls actions. I could see why kurt making a statement about GnR and their sexual objectification of women etc. could be seen as a positive and solid argument... there's no defending Axl in regard to the domestic abuse charges (was it proven, or was it a settlement), although I believe he can sing about whatever he wants within his music... well not quite anything... but what he sang about was not very offensive.

An interesting aside to this is Kurt actually likened himself/Nirvana to GnR. When asked what the song Aero Zeppelin was about and whether it was an attack on Aerosmith or Zepp he stated that it was more an attack on bands like themselves and GnR who were kind of derivative of Zep and Aerosmith.

He further went on to describe a parrallel between Nirvana and GnR, i can't remember exactly what it was, something to do with how they mess things up and wallow in it or can't fix it or something like that.

As for Axls fashion changing, he was deep in the 80s and he went with the times... i'm not sure there's much more to read from that.

I didn't just mean his fashion, i meant his whole attitude and behaviour, sometimes he wanted to be this hot tempered hard nut, this rock n roll archetype...then other times he's onstage (in particular that rant where he's having a go at his parents) and he says something like yous all want me to be Mr Rock n Roll like wa-hey, rock n roll, lets all do cocaine etc and that shit don't work or something along those lines. He always seemed to be trying to copy something, to reinvent...but in a very disingenuous way. You hear stories of him wanting to go all industrial...then trying to replicate the drums on Nevermind, just this whole idea of fishing for something.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Black Sabbath]

Nirvana still sucks.

[Len Cnut]

Nirvana still sucks.

Every time a person of your taste says something like that it goes a long way to validating them to be fair Black Sabbath? Ugh...U2? Christ almighty! You're probably the definition of the mainstream fan that was anathema to someone like Kurt, as long as people like you dislike bands like Nirvana or PiL you know they are doing something right, your ears are simply not attuned to anything of value. I don't know for sure but i BET you're a Metallica fan right? Bruce Springsteen, you gotta be a Bruce Springsteen fan. I'm right, aren't I? Don't be embarassed, you can admit it

Don't get me wrong, you're a lovely guy and everything and it wouldn't do to have everyone listening to the same fuckin' shit...but God almighty if shit taste in music was a crime you'd be being fast-tracked for the green mile right now.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Black Sabbath]

Ok but nirvana and pil definitely suck I'd probably prefer pil between the two though

Yeah, I like Metallica. Not an insane fan though. Don't like Bruce Springsteen really.

You pulling a Keith Richards? "Always thought Sabbath and metallica were a big joke." Love the Stones though.

Also a big Phil Collins fan.

Everything's shite though innit?

[Len Cnut]

It's OK Sabs, i still love you

[DieselDaisy]

Didn't Sabbath influence Nirvana a bit with those down-tuned riffs? Sabbath certainly influenced Soundgarden. It is funny as when you look at the old photos of all of these grunge stars when they were just starting out in the mid-late '80s, they are all wearing Kiss t-shirts!

[Len Cnut]

To be fair, if i was to turn my critical eye on my beloved Nirvana for a moment, if they want to slag off GnR for being deriative of the preceeding generation what does that make them identifying with punk, a late 70s phenomenon, in the early to mid 90s?

And yeah Dies', the Sabbath thing is just my personal distaste, both Nirvana and The Pistols owe a debt to them apparently, John Lydon was a big Hawkwind/Sabbath fan back in the day and still has a lot of respect for early Sabbath. When Captain Sensible first heard Anarchy he described it as 'Old man Steptoe wailing over a dodgy Black Sabbath riff'

Edited September 10, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Chewbacca]

Miser is right, you know. Cobain started the whole shit. Axl was actually friendly towards them in the begining.

[EvH]

This "feud" was stupid as shit anyways.

[Tom-Ass]

How anyone who have truly heard heard their catalog through 1978 and still dislikes Sabbath totally baffles me..

[Nosaj Thing]

Yeah, burn a hat because that's a way to go in a feud. Axl has always been a scared little guy who can't fight. Embarrassing and pathetic behavior.

[Len Cnut]

To be fair, if i was to turn my critical eye on my beloved Nirvana for a moment, if they want to slag off GnR for being deriative of the preceeding generation what does that make them identifying with punk, a late 70s phenomenon, in the early to mid 90s?

And yeah Dies', the Sabbath thing is just my personal distaste, both Nirvana and The Pistols owe a debt to them apparently, John Lydon was a big Hawkwind/Sabbath fan back in the day and still has a lot of respect for early Sabbath. When Captain Sensible first heard Anarchy he described it as 'Old man Steptoe wailing over a dodgy Black Sabbath riff'

I think Nirvana made something pretty special, it wasn't just another punk band, Cobain mixed punk with pop and came up with some very interesting stuff that's light years ahead of what others did while attempting to mix both genres (the offspring, green day, etc).

I agree completely but when you are unforgiving in your criticisms of others then you should take your lumps too. I'm Nirvana over GnR ANY fuckin' day of the week, 10 times out of 10, all day every day, i love Nirvana and i love Kurt Cobain but no ones beyond criticism. i figure I've been pretty fairly laying into GnR, it'd be unfair of me to ignore or gloss over potential misgivings of Nirvana just cuz i like em more.

How anyone who have truly heard heard their catalog through 1978 and still dislikes Sabbath totally baffles me..

I've heard the first album and the one with Paranoid on it (i think they're two different albums right? Don't hold me to that)...to be fair it was pretty good, I think maybe if I'd've heard them when i was a lot younger i might've loved em but at that point there were way too many bands under my belt that I've heard that did something like what Sabbath were doing with those two albums a lot better than Sabbath. A lot of the lyrical content I guess put me off, they're great lyrics in the sense that they fit the songs great, just what they're about seemed a bit...well...shite.

Yeah, burn a hat because that's a way to go in a feud. Axl has always been a scared little guy who can't fight. Embarrassing and pathetic behavior.

I'd probably fancy his chances one on one against Kurt though

[-W.A.R-]

Kurt Cobain, the guy who was anti-magazines and big labels since the big rock stars were on them....

Appeared on Rollingstone mag and was signed under Geffin(who else was signed under them?)

Seriously people put too much importance on what Cobain supposedly stood for, but at the end of the day it's whether you liked his songs or not. In this case GnR imo are way better and Axl Rose is beyond Cobain in terms of vocals.

agreed

i like some Nirvana but they aren't in the same league as GNR to me

Edited September 10, 2015 by -HollywoodRose-

[Apollo]

Not the kind of music I like to listen to.

But to say that Nirvana sucked, that Cobain had no talent, or to make fun if his suicide - that just makes people look idiotic.

Are people really so caught up in being fanboys that they can't look at issues with logic and common sense?

Both singers seem like arrogant messes and pricks back then. Cobain was a prick to Axl. Axl was a prick to almost everybody. Burning a hat on stage is what a 13-year old would do and think was cool.

And to deny Nirvana's place in rock royalty is just ludicrous.

Great posts in her Len.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Apollo

[IncitingChaos]

The beginning of Dead Horse always reminded me of Nirvana

[ChineseIRS]

Dont really see the big deal. He coulda just thrown the hat away, but he made a statement. Immature or not, he had the audience and stadium to do it in, so he did it....boring thread, didnt we just have the Axl/Kurt discussion like 2 months ago.