GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[janrichmond]

1 minute ago, Tori72 said:

Still waiting for that album 

When Duff says "Oh God" after being asked about playing SCOM in 10 years  It's 30+ years and they're still fucking playing it

[vikute91]

15 minutes ago, killuridols said:

It's funny how they paint Axl as someone who cared about children that were not his own , but all he did was humiliate the mothers of those children, probably just out of jealousy and contempt for their motherhood.

Turns out that Dylan is a healthy young man and Frances Bean Cobain is a beautiful and talented young woman nowadays. They didn't grow up to be shit, like spiteful Axl predicted in the past. I'm happy for those kids and how they turned out, especially Frances Bean. I follow her on IG, she's amazing. 

And let's not condemn Kurt for his decision. None of us was in his shoes and we have no idea what he was dealing with.

Just like with the abortion subject, I believe in quality of life, not having a life just becuase you have to be born or have to live it. If your life is shit, then you're better off without it.

With this, I'm not glamorizing suicide or encouraging it. Do not take it the wrong way. What I'm saying is that people make choices in life and they are personal. We should not be comparing the life of one to the other, because circumstances are different for each person.

Our lives our fragile and they can be taken away anytime, either by ourselves, others or naturally.

Thank goodness that Frances Bean Cobain turned out ok, but it could have easily been the other way. Women who shoot heroin while pregnant or do drugs in front of kids must be called out. And wasn't it Courtney's exemplary motherhood that had Frances file a restraining order against her mother for some time?

Now, everybody makes mistakes and, I believe, is entitled to some benefit of a doubt or a second chance, but it's funny to me how you condemn one person in whose 'shoes you haven't been in and have no idea what he was dealing with', yet ask for sympathy towards another. 

[killuridols]

47 minutes ago, vikute91 said:

Thank goodness that Frances Bean Cobain turned out ok, but it could have easily been the other way. Women who shoot heroin while pregnant or do drugs in front of kids must be called out. And wasn't it Courtney's exemplary motherhood that had Frances file a restraining order against her mother for some time?

Is it proven that she was shooting heroin while pregnant? Or was it just a rumor spreaded by jealous Axl? As far as I know, the baby was born pretty fine 

I never said Courtney was an exemplary mother, but Frances is an amazing kid. And I don't follow their lives that much, I just know that mothers and daughters sometimes have disagreements and they fight, but it looks to me that Frances and Courtney are pretty much on good terms nowadays. Frances participated of the documentary Montage of Heck, along with her mother, so.... It's all fine, it seems.

53 minutes ago, vikute91 said:

Now, everybody makes mistakes and, I believe, is entitled to some benefit of a doubt or a second chance, but it's funny to me how you condemn one person in whose 'shoes you haven't been in and have no idea what he was dealing with', yet ask for sympathy towards another. 

Who do I condemn? AXL? For being a wifebeater, mysoginist, piece of shit abuser?

Oh yeah, I have no sympathy for people like that. Having had a tough life is no excuse for doing the shit he did to others.

Fuck him and fuck his sorry ass excuses.

[vikute91]

15 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Is it proven that she was shooting heroin while pregnant? Or was it just a rumor spreaded by jealous Axl? As far as I know, the baby was born pretty fine 

I never said Courtney was an exemplary mother, but Frances is an amazing kid. And I don't follow their lives that much, I just know that mothers and daughters sometimes have disagreements and they fight, but it looks to me that Frances and Courtney are pretty much on good terms nowadays. Frances participated of the documentary Montage of Heck, along with her mother, so.... It's all fine, it seems.

Who do I condemn? AXL? For being a wifebeater, mysoginist, piece of shit abuser?

Oh yeah, I have no sympathy for people like that. Having had a tough life is no excuse for doing the shit he did to others.

Fuck him and fuck his sorry ass excuses.

 You would blame Brexit on Axl if you could, I believe

And yes, Courtney herself has admitted to it. Would you think differently of her if Frances hadn't come out all fine?

[killuridols]

10 minutes ago, vikute91 said:

 You would blame Brexit on Axl if you could, I believe

And yes, Courtney herself has admitted to it. Would you think differently of her if Frances hadn't come out all fine?

No, what I say about Axl is based on publicly known information. I don't make shit up. Ever.

As for Courtney, it seems she didn't do that much of the drug, otherwise the baby would have been born really bad or even dead. And that's not the case. So maybe she's not the perfect mother, but she wasn't as bad as to let herself go nuts on drugs and damage the baby.

[vikute91]

7 minutes ago, killuridols said:

No, what I say about Axl is based on publicly known information. I don't make shit up. Ever.

As for Courtney, it seems she didn't do that much of the drug, otherwise the baby would have been born really bad or even dead. And that's not the case. So maybe she's not the perfect mother, but she wasn't as bad as to let herself go nuts on drugs and damage the baby.

Most likely it was merely luck rather than her using drugs in moderation. Forget about heroin. Do I really need to tell you that even smoking and drinking during pregnancy can have sad consequences on child's health? What Axl did was unatonable (however, I believe the truth lies somewhere in between the media's account on it and what he claims). However, if I knew that my own mother risked my well-being or even my life for a hit, that would hurt way more than a man beating me.  

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, vikute91 said:

Most likely it was merely luck rather than her using drugs in moderation. Forget about heroin. Do I really need to tell you that even smoking and drinking during pregnancy can have sad consequences on child's health?

No, you dont have to tell me anything because I know very well and I'm not condoning it. Of course, it is wrong and should not be encouraged nor applauded. But I don't think Courtney was trying to hurt her baby on purpose and I dont think she was "lucky" with it. There's no luck in that kind of thing. If she was doing hard drugs during the pregnancy, we wouldn't have Frances with us today. So, maybe there's a lot of ill-intentions involved, though I'm not saying she was a saint either.

My point is that I don't believe Axl was genuinely worried about Frances Bean or Dylan. If he had been for real, he wouldn't have disrespected Courtney at the VMA's and he could have acted differently, like the "caring" person some fans say he is, he could have come close to the couple and congratulate them on the baby, check up the baby was fine and be the better man. But no, all of a sudden, he decided to take a silly joke the wrong way and insult all of them.... Why? 

1 hour ago, vikute91 said:

However, if I knew that my own mother risked my well-being or even my life for a hit, that would hurt way more than a man beating me.  

Good Lord I'm not stealing this level of zealotry....

[Tori72]

Well, it’s 25 years ago today. One of those moments when I still remember where I was, who told me and how it made me feel.

Rest in peace, Kurt.

 

[Politania]

7 hours ago, vikute91 said:

 You would blame Brexit on Axl if you could, I believe

And yes, Courtney herself has admitted to it. Would you think differently of her if Frances hadn't come out all fine?

hahaha So true. Axl is blamed for everything 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Politania

[Lio]

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

But I don't think Courtney was trying to hurt her baby on purpose and I dont think she was "lucky" with it. There's no luck in that kind of thing. If she was doing hard drugs during the pregnancy, we wouldn't have Frances with us today. So, maybe there's a lot of ill-intentions involved, though I'm not saying she was a saint either.

This is simply not true. Addicted babies are born every day, sadly.

I have no sympathy at all for any mother with no regard of her baby's well-being and health. It's not only despicable, it's criminal too.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

8 hours ago, vikute91 said:

 You would blame Brexit on Axl if you could, I believe

[Alja]

11 hours ago, Padme said:

The worst part about that comment is that it seems Axl did it all by himself  Five guys made the band, not just one. Besides a lot of people help them one way or another, everyone from Marc Canter to David Geffen. Things didn't take shape just because Axl performed some kind of magic trick

Axl was the driving force, the catalyst. Since the beginning of the band. And, at the end, a mastermind behind the band as Izzy started to diminish. He ain't no solo artist, of course  I am pretty sure that if they had more "normal" lead singer, the band wouldn't take the course they did. 

 

11 hours ago, vikute91 said:

???

So you can't be more of a masculine guy and be sensitive at the same time? I disagree. In fact I never even perceived Axl as a very macho man. All I see is a highly emotional and moody person who has anger management issues and is easy to pick a fight with.

Axl is insecure and vulnerable. It makes him a kind of performer he is. On the other side, he, since being small, fragile built child in hostile environment, learned to protect that with aggression. Family should learn children to understand and regulate their emotions, but, if a child lives in constant threat, where adults aren't capable of self-control, it inevitably becomes hypersensitive even without being highly emotional by nature. If it's a boy, it's even harder, because for a boy is hard to find a role-model and boys are forced man up, to be stoic and unemotional. Other thing is that with hypersensitive nature, "skinlessness", a person like that can be overwhelmed by inner or outer stimuli, which are, for most people, not even on their radar. He ain't no macho, he is quiet opposite of that for me. Axl always loved to be with children.

***

Being an owner of a pussy is not a thing which deserves respect itself. So goes for age. If you behave like a bitch, you are treated as one, even if a women sitting next to you being classy is usually treated like a lady. It's bullshit to ask for respect because of sex, age, if you meet harsh honest person, even your social status doesn't matter, you are treated as you ask for. 

Drug abuse during pregnancy and breastfeeding puts a child under higher risk of developmental, psychological and health problems, they have higher mortality than normal. Keith Richards' and Anita Pallenberg's kids are also mostly normal adults, only one of their sons  died on sudden infant death syndrome, which is more common in addict mother's children. Growing up in addicts environment puts abnormal pressure on kids. Children of some stars and groupies died because their parents were high on drugs and the child was left unsupervised... They all knew the stories. Like, imagine there is this beautiful child and it's parents are constantly out of their heads and there's nothing which can eventually call them for responsibility...

[Padme]

35 minutes ago, Alja said:

Axl was the driving force, the catalyst. Since the beginning of the band. And, at the end, a mastermind behind the band as Izzy started to diminish. He ain't no solo artist, of course  I am pretty sure that if they had more "normal" lead singer, the band wouldn't take the course they did. 

 

In the begining Axl was the frontman and lead singer. All of them were the driving force. All of them were behind their sound, lyrics and loud music. Izzy didn't diminish. He just left when he couldn't take it anymore. Only Adler diminished. 

It is not a matter of normal singer. We will never know what could have been without Axl in the early days. But for sure we know what happened to GN'R when Izzy, Slash and Duff left. 

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, Lio said:

This is simply not true. Addicted babies are born every day, sadly.

I have no sympathy at all for any mother with no regard of her baby's well-being and health. It's not only despicable, it's criminal too.

Was Frances Bean born an addicted baby? 

I never said I had sympathy for Courtney regarding her dangerous behavior but I don't see how that gives a green light to this man Axl to verbally abuse her during the VMA's.

[Lio]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Was Frances Bean born an addicted baby? 

I never said I had sympathy for Courtney regarding her dangerous behavior but I don't see how that gives a green light to this man Axl to verbally abuse her during the VMA's.

I'm not sure if she was, but you said:

Quote

If she was doing hard drugs during the pregnancy, we wouldn't have Frances with us today.

And I said it wasn't true, addicted babies are born everyday, pregnant women doing hard drugs do get babies that survive.

I haven't mentioned Axl at all. I was merely stating what you said (that quote), was untrue.

[killuridols]

36 minutes ago, Lio said:

And I said it wasn't true, addicted babies are born everyday, pregnant women doing hard drugs do get babies that survive.

It's not far-fetched to say that fetuses receiving drugs, alcohol, etc. could be born dead or with severe health problems. I guess the overall point is that doing drugs during pregnancy is wrong. But at the same time, it doesn't look to me that Frances Bean was a baby with that kind of problems. I remember her from pictures of 1992 that she was a chubby smiling baby.

43 minutes ago, Lio said:

I haven't mentioned Axl at all. I was merely stating what you said (that quote), was untrue.

And I never asked for sympathy for Courtney regarding her drug addiction. So when you respond that you feel no sorry for her behavior as a mother, you are just joining the derailment of my initial point, which was that Axl verbally abused Courtney during the VMA's.

Then someone else brought up the drug shit, as if that was a valid reason to have Courtney humiliated in front of everybody, especially when she was holding that baby Axl was so "concerned" about.

[Sydney Fan]

17 hours ago, Alja said:

There is no accessible parallel reality (at least for me) in which GNR hoked on Appetite sound and kept with its image also staying in five original members, so I cannot say exactly.

At the end, Axl got lost in all that so he couldn't hear himself, they ended UYI nibbled away to bare minimum, and it still worked. It happened to many bands... The only available alternative is what they created through the time, take it or let be.

 

I started my dive into GNR world figuring out why Kurt is dead and Axl alive (2015). Found out that despite the reputation, Axl was a non-junkie, occasional user, which is something I still find utterly fascinating. Getting more information about people from drugs oozed environments, talks with junkies and observations inspired by this I found out many interesting things, I was even having a tribute lecture on drug use for national congress based on my findings. Not being substance-dependent is always good. 

I really never beleived axl did hard drugs. Pot yes, heroin and cocaine no. Cocaine he didnt do because it screwed up his throat.

[vikute91]

15 hours ago, killuridols said:

It's funny how they paint Axl as someone who cared about children that were not his own , but all he did was humiliate the mothers of those children, probably just out of jealousy and contempt for their motherhood.

Turns out that Dylan is a healthy young man and Frances Bean Cobain is a beautiful and talented young woman nowadays. They didn't grow up to be shit, like spiteful Axl predicted in the past. I'm happy for those kids and how they turned out, especially Frances Bean. I follow her on IG, she's amazing. 

I brought up Courtney's heroin use during pregnancy to show that there were in fact substantial grounds (not only for Axl but for everyone) to predict less than fortunate outcomes.

Now to the Courtney/Axl altercation at the VMAs. It's not like he came to insult her out of the blue. According to witnesses, the tone in which she spoke to him was clearly meant to taunt and mock him. The role of a conflict instigator shouldn't be downplayed. If you want to be treated like a decent person - act like one.

[soon]

I think survival of babies with Prenatal Substance Abuse/ Prenatal Drug Exposure and FAS depends largely on where in the world they are born, what the drug is and classist gatekeeping to the best care. I think some of the countries we are from would be much more equipped to save a malnourished minute-old preemie whose going into opioid withdrawal. And some systems may even lack the will.

[killuridols]

21 minutes ago, vikute91 said:

I brought up Courtney's heroin use during pregnancy to show that there were in fact substantial grounds (not only for Axl but for everyone) to predict less than fortunate outcomes.

Oh but didn't Axl want to desperately be Kurt's friend? Around that time he didn't give a fuck about Kurt being a "junkie" or his wife or his baby, right?

Axl's concern for Frances Bean was bullshit and that was my initial point. He only wanted to shame them and damage them, just like he wanted to make Dylan turn against his mother. 

25 minutes ago, vikute91 said:

Now to the Courtney/Axl altercation at the VMAs. It's not like he came to insult her out of the blue. According to witnesses, the tone in which she spoke to him was clearly meant to taunt and mock him. The role of a conflict instigator shouldn't be downplayed. If you want to be treated like a decent person - act like one.

You can always be the better person and just ignore the mocking.

Courtney's joke wasn't deserving of such disproportionate response. That's where the difference is and in the end, Kurt won, because he saved the situation by turning it into a comical thing. People laughed at how ridiculous Axl looked, insulting a family with such violence.

Kurt Cobain: These were his words: “You shut your bitch up, or I’m taking you down to the pavement.” [laughs] So I turned to Courtney and said: “Shut up, bitch!” So I guess I did what he wanted me to do – be a man.

Amy Finnerty: Kurt’s tone was very sarcastic, so everybody laughed… at Axl basically, for making such a comment about a woman… especially because anybody who knew Kurt and Courtney knew that a) Kurt wasn’t that type of person and b)nobody could ever keep Courtney in line, so what was he thinking? I’d say Kurt handled that situation perfectly. He knew exactly what he was doing by turning to Courtney and saying that. It really lessened the tension in the room, allowed the rest of us to laugh a little bit. Then [Axl’s then girlfriend] Stephanie Seymour asked Courtney: “Are you a model?” and Courtney replied: “No. Are you a brain surgeon?” Axl didn’t seem to know how to respond, so he walked off. I leaned over to Kurt and said: “Wow, that was weird!” And he said: “I was really scared.” He wasn’t kidding. It was, like, scared of being beat up.

Tabitha Soren: Shortly afterwards, I walked through the backstage area. I saw a bunch of very large, muscular bodyguards in all-black T-shirts restraining Axl Rose. His girlfriend was looking very shaken, but at that moment, I didn’t even know who he had had an altercation with.

Kurt Loder: It was like two worlds colliding. That was sort of an important moment in the way fashions changed, and you really saw the culture of music going in a slightly different way.

[Blackstar]

For anyone interested, the story about Courtney using heroin while pregnant had started from this article in Vanity Fair in the September 1992 issue:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/03/love-story-of-kurt-cobain-courtney-love

It had an interview with Courtney (and a bit of Kurt), but also quotes from friends and associates saying that she was using drugs and they were worried for the baby's health.

Courtney had threatened to sue the Vanity Fair journalist and Kurt had threatened to break up Nirvana and later said he was so angry that he had felt like beating her [the journalist] up. According to them, the interview was done at the beginning of Courtney's pregnancy, when she was admittedly using. Then there was an issue with an unauthorised - and seemingly sensationalist - Nirvana biography. Kurt and Courtney had sent threatening messages because the writers had interviewed the Vanity Fair journalist:

https://ew.com/article/1992/12/04/kurt-cobain-courtney-love-unauthorized/

(Kurt and Courtney had their fair share of problems with the press, including Spin - Kurt hated the British press in particular)

After Frances Bean was born, the Los Angeles Social Services took away her custody from Kurt and Courtney temporarily based on a Courtney's urine test from the first period of her pregnancy and on what was reported in the press. 

 

[MaskingApathy]

8 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Well, it’s 25 years ago today. One of those moments when I still remember where I was, who told me and how it made me feel.

Rest in peace, Kurt.

 

I'm playing Nirvana at work today.

[Tori72]

23 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

I'm playing Nirvana at work today.

I listened to their songs today as well. Haven’t done so in a while. What a great and gritty band they were. Great songs, great lyrics. I wished we could know what Kurt would have done, for music, and rock, if he stayed alive.

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Tori72 said:

I listened to their songs today as well. Haven’t done so in a while. What a great and gritty band they were. Great songs, great lyrics. I wished we could know what Kurt would have done, for music, and rock, if he stayed alive.

I once found this video on YouTube and I couldn't believe my eyes how fucking great it is!!

The band, the aesthetics, the vibe, everything's so perfect...... makes me miss the 90's and at the same time it feels like all of it happened yesterday

Nirvana - Drain You (Live at the Paramount 1991) Seattle - October 31, 1991. Source Bluray 720p.

It's a whole show, btw.

 

[Tori72]

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I once found this video on YouTube and I couldn't believe my eyes how fucking great it is!!

The band, the aesthetics, the vibe, everything's so perfect...... makes me miss the 90's and at the same time it feels like all of it happened yesterday

Nirvana - Drain You (Live at the Paramount 1991) Seattle - October 31, 1991. Source Bluray 720p.

It's a whole show, btw.

 

Thank you! Fantastic, they were so in sync and on point. Also the whole vibe, the size of the venue, bassist barefoot and those „Go Go“ dancers rocking out, being dudes and wearing slacky clothes. I cannot not thing of Axl’s and Izzy’s stripper friends dancing in bikinis/underwear ... Do you think Nirvana were thinking about that? Maybe they were already taking the piss of GnR?