Guns N Roses Live at the Ritz 87 leaked(complete)!!!

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, ludurigan said:

keep in mind that all the good songs (i like a lot of them!) and all the bad songs aerosmith released after permanent vacation were written with a huge help of some serious hitmakers -- a.k.a. song doctors ...in other words they lost their izzy-like ability to write good songs and decided to buy some help from some of the highest-paid professional songwriters in the business!

 

I know, but is that because of drugs? Some people here seem to think that, but that is quite an assumption. I like some of 80s and 90s Aerosmith. Of course, I also came of age while watching those Alicia Silverstone videos on MTV every day during the early and mid 90s... that probably helped to some degree.

[bigpoop]

All bands do their best work in their first decade. Drugs or no drugs.

[EvanG]

That really depends on your taste, right? Some bands evolve for the worst, some for the better. Some evolve as songwriters and only get better at it. I mean, I think the Beatles didn't release their best songs on their first records.

Edited October 26, 2017 by EvanG

[bigpoop]

Well I said first decade not first records. The Beatles' whole discography only spans seven years.

Besides, their early stuff is amazing. A Hard Day's Night is easily one of their greatest albums and that came out in '64.

[DieselDaisy]

Help is my favourite Beatles album.

[EvanG]

Ok, but like I said... it's about taste, it's always subjective. Aerosmith is a good example, people who like the more bluesy and hardrock style, probably prefer 70s Aerosmith, but they had their biggest commercial success in the 80s and 90s, so obviously a lot of people liked the pop influence they had going on during that era.

[6lake sa66ath]

Was a good thread for the first 2 pages maybe

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

Blimey, there are some...interesting opinions on here this evening. ^^

Drug and alcohol abuse absolutely contributed to GNR's split.  It is well documented.  It has been said multiple times by all members of the band and their associates.  It very nearly killed three of them.  To imply it wasn't a contributing factor or that it is somehow 'overrated' is quite simply rubbish.  Sorry to be so blunt, @DieselDaisy ^^ Money, egos, mental health issues, power grabs, and general bitching and sniping were also contributing factors. So taking all of that into account, GNR were fucked.  They stood no chance.  They were lucky to have lasted as long as they did.

Musically speaking?  That's a different matter.  I don't deny that drugs have played a role in opening up more creative channels for certain artists whether it's in song writing or the playing of instruments. And I agree with @Len Cnut point about drugs making artists looser and less aware.  Certainly, some of our greatest songs and albums were all made while the artist was under the influence of something or other.  

As far as GNR are concerned there were numerous factors that contributed to their success and the quality of their sound in their early days, such as dedication (to honing their craft, they practised a lot), ambition - conflict and tension - and the natural looseness and recklessness that comes with youth.  It's unreasonable to suggest that the reason GNR sounded so good, or wrote such great songs is simply because they were high/wasted.  

And as @metalms pointed out, ultimately?  The process of using and abusing destroys creativity rather than enhances it, and goes on to destroy the user, which does no band any good.

[guitarpatch]

44 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

keep in mind that all the good songs (i like a lot of them!) and all the bad songs aerosmith released after permanent vacation were written with a huge help of some serious hitmakers -- a.k.a. song doctors ...in other words they lost their izzy-like ability to write good songs and decided to buy some help from some of the highest-paid professional songwriters in the business!

 

While they did bring in song doctors, they still wrote a lot of material on their own during that time. There's a lot of deep cuts on those albums that sound more like 70's Aerosmith, instead of trying to reach top singles lists. They needed that second career after blowing through much of their $. Done With Mirrors was a production/philosphy mess (although the songs are there) and ultimately a commercial meh, so Geffen wanted them to bring in outside help. They were in no position to argue. 

Ultimately with Aerosmith, Tyler & Perry couldn't be left in the same room together past the mid 90's. They haven't really written material together since that time period. 

[IncitingChaos]

On 10/24/2017 at 1:43 PM, IncitingChaos said:

Outside of money and egos I'd say the drugs and alcohol did the most damage. It's one thing to be on drugs. It's another to have money and be addicted still...they took their addictions to another level and the things that were important (music) take a back seat to what you crave and feel you need to continue. 

Miracle they survived! But this tape captures the band in what they all agree was their favorite time together. Sucks it didn't last long but atleast it happened 

I didn't know you'd guys still be talking about the drugs, but just to touch on that being on drugs helped or hurt the music debate...I was thinking that the way their addictions fractured relationships amongst the band took an equal toll on the band that Axl's erratic behavior did  

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Drug and alcohol abuse absolutely contributed to GNR's split.  It is well documented.  It has been said multiple times by all members of the band and their associates.  It very nearly killed three of them.  To imply it wasn't a contributing factor or that it is somehow 'overrated' is quite simply rubbish.  Sorry to be so blunt, @DieselDaisy ^^ Money, egos, mental health issues, power grabs, and general bitching and sniping were also contributing factors. So taking all of that into account, GNR were fucked.  They stood no chance.  They were lucky to have lasted as long as they did.

Bah. Just something Rose and his fans used to justify his powergrab. Stradlin was sober by 1990. Slash was pissed as a fart during the nineties but he still put out Snakepit, toured and did about a million guest appearances. McKagan was sober by 1995. None of them could handle their liquor anyway. The Stones took more drugs and booze and put out Beggars, Let it Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile.

[AxlRoseCDII]

Bands write better content when they are hungry and want people to see their work. When a band gets famous they don't usually write as quality songs as their first few albums.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Bah. Just something Rose and his fans used to justify his powergrab. Stradlin was sober by 1990. Slash was pissed as a fart during the nineties but he still put out Snakepit, toured and did about a million guest appearances. McKagan was sober by 1995. None of them could handle their liquor anyway. The Stones took more drugs and booze and put out Beggars, Let it Bleed, Sticky Fingers and Exile.

Don't recall Axl using addiction to justify his power grab?  Did he?

There's a reason Izzy cleaned up - he was going down a dark path, as Duff mentions in his book.  It was affecting his ability to function on a day to day basis - and play - I thought that was said by various members of the band, though correct me if I'm wrong.  Slash was able to function better than the others to a degree - he still nearly lost his life and ended up with that heart condition.  Again, there's a reason he cleaned up - he says music was taking a back seat.  Ditto Duff, we all know why he got sober.  Lot of relationship damage was done by then, as @IncitingChaos points out.  My point was that it might be all right in small doses, but then the little gets more and more. 

I have no explanation for the Stones, no one does - they are not mortal.  I can't believe any of them have lasted this long!  Sticky Fingers is my favourite by the way.

[classicrawker]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Everything Aerosmith have put out since they packed in the junk has been absolute garbage. 

And some would say everything after "Rocks" was absolute garbage but personally I like some of the Geffen era music............

[EvanG]

24 minutes ago, classicrawker said:

And some would say everything after "Rocks" was absolute garbage but personally I like some of the Geffen era music............

There is nothing wrong with that. They have written some really good tunes in the 80s and 90s. And I like some of the late 90s and early 2000s songs. Jaded, Hole In My Soul, Pink, Girls of Summer. It's a lot more commercial sounding, but if it's a good song it's a good song.

[DieselDaisy]

52 minutes ago, classicrawker said:

And some would say everything after "Rocks" was absolute garbage but personally I like some of the Geffen era music............

Admittedly Aerosmith's music went up the shitter long before they packed in the junk but I'd still take Draw the Line or Night at the Ruts before all of that Alicia Silverstone tripe which followed.  

[Ratam]

2 hours ago, metalms said:

I have to disagree on drugs being a positive factor on a band being good I think when you are starting out you pour everything in to it, you spend your whole career working on those initial albums and you are inspired because you are still "hungary" This is probably the biggest writing inspiration.  it would be hard in my opinion for anyone to keep up such a high level for an extended period of time except for maybe a few exceptions  I think the fame you wish to achieve once you get it is the "killer"  in the beginning drugs open you up,  but it progresses to the point that it destroys you.. again just my opinion/ 2 cents worth

Spot on @metalms👍

[classicrawker]

2 hours ago, EvanG said:

There is nothing wrong with that. They have written some really good tunes in the 80s and 90s. And I like some of the late 90s and early 2000s songs. Jaded, Hole In My Soul, Pink, Girls of Summer. It's a lot more commercial sounding, but if it's a good song it's a good song.

I was never a fan of the 1980/90's ballads you mentioned as I was more a fan of songs like Monkey My Back, Hangman's Jury, Don't Get Made Get Even etc...I even like Dude and Elevator from that era but the ballads not so much but it may be a generational thing on my part.

I saw Aerosmith 4-5 years  ago and when they played the 70's songs the older fans were into them singing along while the younger fans just stood there. When they played the ballads the younger fans were singing along while us older fans headed for the beer line........That is the beauty of Aerosmith as they cross generational lines and have some music for everyone....

 

Back on topic it is great to see the 87 Ritz show video as it brings back great memories of that night that is what memories I can still remember........

Of the two shows I saw back in 1987 the Ritz was the better of the two as the band was tight that night and playing well.  While the show at the L'Amour in Brooklyn the week after was  good  Slash was hammered and was very sloppy that night.  

Saw Guns in 1988 twice opening for Aerosmith but Axl's voice was shot so hard to judge them. I still think those 1987 club shows were their peak as AFD had not broken yet and they were still hungry.......

Edited October 26, 2017 by classicrawker

[RONIN]

Guys - we're going in circles here.

If drugs/booze is the catalyst for creativity with GnR - well,  90% of the entire Guns catalogue was written during the Appetite/Lies period. Nearly all of their stuff was created during their boozy appetite prime. Illusions was pretty much done by late '89. So the real problem here is not necessarily the material but Axl overcooking Illusions between 1990-91. If they just directly recorded Illusions straight from the demo tapes with Adler, Stradlin' being louder in the mix, and a minimalist production with a better mix, everyone would be happy. These are important things but minor in the grand scheme being that the songs themselves were crafted during their prime. As for Piano on Illusions, that was going to be there from the very beginning - Axl was always Elton Rose. Piano has always been there in rock. Just because the grunge bands sneered at this doesn't diminish their relevance in rock n' roll. 

They basically did nothing after the Appetite era as far as creating music - the last 3 years of their career were just spent layering Illusions and touring the albums. "This I Love" and Snakepit are the only original material to even emerge post Appetite era up till the late 90's. Basically - I say meh to this notion that we somehow didn't get their best work post-appetite. There is nothing artistically better about Anything Goes compared to Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring. Very similar songs except the production - so it becomes more of an issue based on sonic taste/preference. All of those songs are just fun punk-ish cock rock w/ juvenile lyrics. Personally, I'd take Right Next Door to Hell and Perfect Crime over Out Ta Get Me or My Michelle any day even if the latter comes from the much vaunted Appetite. Aside from "my world", and some admittedly silly lyrical choices on a few songs, Illusions is objectively a great record imho. Could it have been a lot better though? Certainly.

Now, had they released a record in the mid 90's with a sober Duff, cleaned up Izzy, and a less drunk Slash - and that record was a disappointment? Well - then, you might have a point that substance abuse brought out their greatness. I don't even necessarily disagree with the premise, but I think the band was capable of greatness even without drugs and booze. They were just that good. I think the real issue might be that Appetite purists don't necessarily have an issue with the Illusions material, but rather how it was presented (stylistic flourishes w/vocals and instruments, mix, production, etc). I.e. The approach to the material is more of an issue than the actual material itself. Would Illusions still be criticized if we got the naked mixes with Adler and Izzy's guitar interplay with Slash? That's the real question here.

Edited October 26, 2017 by RONIN

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

Why is there this perception that drugs and alcohol was a catalyst for Guns' creativity?  What is the basis for this assumption?  I'd think the catalyst was their lifestyles: the Hell Tour, living hand to mouth, hanging out with sleazy people, being sleazy people, having musical ability, listening to Aerosmith and Elton John, having something to say and something to prove and lots and lots of practice.  But no, it was the drugs and alcohol?  Drugs and alcohol wrote all the songs! lol  

[RONIN]

2 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Why is there this perception that drugs and alcohol was a catalyst for Guns' creativity?  What is the basis for this assumption?  I'd think the catalyst was their lifestyles: the Hell Tour, living hand to mouth, hanging out with sleazy people, being sleazy people, having musical ability, listening to Aerosmith and Elton John, having something to say and something to prove and lots and lots of practice.  But no, it was the drugs and alcohol?  Drugs and alcohol wrote all the songs! lol  

I'm sure it sort of primed them and loosened some of their inhibitions a bit. There's some scientific research coming out currently about the benefits of LSD and how it pertains to creativity. There's a bunch of silicon valley execs who are dabbling with LSD to come up with the next big product. There's probably something to it, but like you said, their music's real muse was more than likely their debauched lifestyle. And again, nearly all of Illusions was written during those years. We got their best stuff even if we're using drugs and their wild lifestyle as a metric for quality control.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

14 minutes ago, RONIN said:

I'm sure it sort of primed them and loosened some of their inhibitions a bit. There's some scientific research coming out currently about the benefits of LSD and how it pertains to creativity. There's a bunch of silicon valley execs who are dabbling with LSD to come up with the next big product. There's probably something to it, but like you said, their music's real muse was more than likely their debauched lifestyle. And again, nearly all of Illusions was written during those years. We got their best stuff even if we're using drugs and their wild lifestyle as a metric for quality control.

Oh, totally agree on when we got their best stuff.  The benefits of LSD, eh?  I don't doubt it actually, but now I have a funny mental image of silicon valley execs tripping out and saying it's all for research purposes. lol  

Just...the guys have all mentioned in various ways how dedicated they were to practising and improving and that gets glossed over a bit. They didn't just magically become talented.  Sure, they each had a measure of innate talent but even talent needs training.  And they had their shit together about the marketing and the flyers and publicity and what not.  You know that's what got them success in the end, when you cut away everything else. They worked hard to be as good as they were.

Good point about the approach to Illusions v approach to AFD.

Edited October 26, 2017 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[F*ck Fear]

That's the Guns N' Roses I wish I could have seen live.

Thanks to those who made viewing this bootleg possible!

[ludurigan]

7 hours ago, guitarpatch said:

While they did bring in song doctors, they still wrote a lot of material on their own during that time. There's a lot of deep cuts on those albums that sound more like 70's Aerosmith, instead of trying to reach top singles lists. They needed that second career after blowing through much of their $. Done With Mirrors was a production/philosphy mess (although the songs are there) and ultimately a commercial meh, so Geffen wanted them to bring in outside help. They were in no position to argue. 

Ultimately with Aerosmith, Tyler & Perry couldn't be left in the same room together past the mid 90's. They haven't really written material together since that time period. 

is there any good aerosmith song written after 1987 without an outside input?

[ludurigan]

7 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Don't recall Axl using addiction to justify his power grab?  Did he?

 

axl never even aknowledged the fact that he took over GNr and likely never will