The Ulrich Schnauss Incident

[Edward Nygma]

In October 2009, electronic musician Ulrich Schnauss's record labels Independiente and Domino sued Guns N' Roses, alleging the band had infringed copyright by using portions of Schnauss' compositions in the song "Riad 'n the Bedouins". The suit alleges the portions used were from Schnauss' Wherever You Are (2001) and A Strangely Isolated Place (2003). Brian Caplan, attorney for Domino, stated that they first contacted Geffen on February 26. Caplan told New York Daily News the label "attempted to explain [the samples] away", and "They tried to justify it". Guns N' Roses vigorously denied the allegations; the band's manager Irving Azoff stated: "The snippets of 'ambient noise' in question were provided by a member of the album's production team who has assured us that these few seconds of sound were obtained legitimately ... While the band resents the implication that they would ever use another artist's work improperly and are assessing possible counterclaims, they are confident this situation will be satisfactorily resolved." The two labels sought $1 million in damages against Geffen for the unauthorized use of the composition samples.

I take it this issue got resolved. There's no mistaking the portion of 'ambient noise' used was indeed Ulrich Schnauss work. What I'm asking is how did the portion of noise used manage to make onto CD & released without anybody realizing it was Schnauss work?

Edited August 12, 2018 by Edward Nigma
Typo

[TheSeeker]

21 minutes ago, Edward Nigma said:

What I'm asking is how did the portion of noise used manage to make onto CD & released without anybody realizing it was Schnauss work?

Tommy, Josh Freese and Sean "Youth" Beaven are credited with arranging the song, so I'm guessing one of them fucked up

Freese and Youth were gone by the time Ulrich's songs in question came out, so that leaves Tommy

Could also be Dizzy since he actually played keyboards on the song

Edited August 12, 2018 by TheSeeker

[zombux]

I think they just found some tape in a pile of tapes in some forgotten closet. the tape had probably some label like "instrumental stuff #987362746857". so somebody used it.

[soon]

I think that many people wouldn't recognize the work of an ambient artist. Pitman likely would have transferred the sample to his rig and triggered it via his synth-keyboard, so one watching would have no idea is was lifted from an album. So it doesnt really surprise me if no one noticed.

But its also very likely that somewhere along the line someone did notice. But the issue of "sample clearance" had only really started in earnest in the 90's. Like with Ice Ice Baby. 96-97 saw the Stones sue The Verve over Bittersweet Symphony and Chemical Brothers in trouble for the Beatles' Tomorrow Never Knows. It was still such a wild west legal grey area that although Jagger/Richards didnt even compose the symphonic piece used In Bittersweet Symphony, their ruthless reps were able to get them song writer credits and 100% of the profits from the Verve song. The actual piece of music was created by a composer for a an additional part on a secondary recording of the Stones song. The composer had already been paid an agreed to flat rate and was not credited on the Verve song nor included in the proceeds of the successful law suit. Its crazy!

So when Pitman did this in late 90's- early 2000's, there were smash hits that lifted from some of the biggest bands ever. Sampling was just an accepted part of the musical landscape.

Just last year Drake was sued for a sample. He got off I think. Proving that the safest, easiest, cheapest method from the legal standpoint still remains; sample first and if necessary go to court in front of a dinosaur judge with no expertise on copywriter law as it pertains to sampling in the digital age and see what the judge will come up with. With very little case law to go on, as the issue appears to be individual cases and not an established area of law, one can expect either a quick dismissal of the suit or a very protracted fight that will hopefully be more then the artists who was illegally sampled can handle. 

You just apologize, hope a handshake, inclusion as a songwriter and split of future royalties will be enough to settle the matter.

Edit: But how Pitman couldn't between 1997-2008 create his own ambient synth pad is beyond me. A child could be sat in front of a synth and create an ambient synth pad. It's really embarrassing.

Edited August 12, 2018 by soon

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Edward Nigma said:

What I'm asking is how did the portion of noise used manage to make onto CD & released without anybody realizing it was Schnauss work?

Walking Alfred was in charge of it

[zombux]

well, no matter how that was settled out, note one thing: Riad was the only song that was never performed live in the recent years. never after ChiDem release, and also never in the few years before release - it was only played a handful of times in 2001-2.

the only exception to this was Ron's acoustic show for fans which he made after the stage collapsed during one of the South American tours. but that can't be considered a GNR show of course, more like a cover.

[cpaxlvacy]

1 hour ago, zombux said:

well, no matter how that was settled out, note one thing: Riad was the only song that was never performed live in the recent years. never after ChiDem release, and also never in the few years before release - it was only played a handful of times in 2001-2.

the only exception to this was Ron's acoustic show for fans which he made after the stage collapsed during one of the South American tours. but that can't be considered a GNR show of course, more like a cover.

Just to clarify! The acoustic show was in Costa Rica. I was the one that asked Ron to play for a few of us some acoustic songs. First we went up to his hotel room where he read the communication of the cancellation of the show. He played some songs while we were in his hotel room and i was the only one asking for Chinese Democracy songs, one of them being Madagascar. Believe me he didn't play Riad that day. Then we went to the parking lot of the hotel because we were making too much noise in the room. We were there like for an hour or two i don't remember clearly. It was an amazing experience that helped a little bit with the frustration of the cancellation of the show. I have a lot of videos of this acoustic performance.

 

Edit: I just noticed it was played for fans in Brazil. That was before Costa Rica.

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by cpaxlvacy

[-W.A.R-]

This is a good reason why you don't have a revolving door of people over a 15 year period working on an album.

Edited August 13, 2018 by -W.A.R-

[GNR 1991]

This had to have been a Pitman thing.

I think many of us were actually surprised to see Riad even make the album, since it got abandoned on the 02 tour. I think it was actually on the alt setlist in 2006, but never materialized. Until the Skwerl leak, this song was as dead as Silkworms.

[Original]

11 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

1. Who gives a shit

2. The rationalization I believe was that it was a long sample from an audio program or something to that effect

Youth was off the project by 1999, Beavan by 2000.

Tommy into ambient shit? Doubt it

So Pitman or some Production Team member who gave him some software

1.  Who Gives a shit.    *couldn't agree more

[Amir]

Waste of time and money as well, song already has one intro, why add a second one? It works having an extended intro with the title track since that's the opener to the album but with Riad it really drags out what could have been a decent rocker.

[RussTCB]

The thing that's always bummed me out about this whole deal is that the samples in question are just another example of CD being way overblown. Riad can and should've just started with the guitar and kicked in from there. The samples in question add absolutely nothing to the song IMO.

[Edward Nygma]

9 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

I think many of us were surprised to see half of the songs on the album.

Between Merck's comments about loads of songs being better than IRS and Axl's 48 song vault... it was kind of a bummer to see the Antiquiet leaks all make the album.

 

There's like 34 other tracks that we have never heard, makes you wonder what track list we would have gotten had the leaks not happened. I think you can add another few songs to that number since Merck left & up to present day. Always liked CD, that Prostitute outro on the album always made we wonder what else we could hear from the unreleased CD era songs and when we are likely to hear new music from GNR.

[Azifwekare]

53 minutes ago, Edward Nigma said:

that Prostitute outro on the album always made we wonder what else we could hear from the unreleased CD era songs and when we are likely to hear new music from GNR.

That outro was fuckin' beautiful, a perfect end to the album.

[MrMojo]

5 minutes ago, Azifwekare said:

That outro was fuckin' beautiful, a perfect end to the album.

Between buckets notes and the strings it's a tear jerker, beautiful music.

[smiley]

1 hour ago, Edward Nigma said:

There's like 34 other tracks that we have never heard, makes you wonder what track list we would have gotten had the leaks not happened. I think you can add another few songs to that number since Merck left & up to present day. Always liked CD, that Prostitute outro on the album always made we wonder what else we could hear from the unreleased CD era songs and when we are likely to hear new music from GNR.

We'd have probably never gotten any

[appetite4illusions]

If I remember correctly, it was two pieces of music from the same artist that were used without clearance or authorization.

They sort of ran into each other, which makes the whole thing more deliberate. I can't imagine anyone other than Chris Pittman being responsible.

[Bansidhe]

On 12/08/2018 at 4:43 PM, soon said:

I think that many people wouldn't recognize the work of an ambient artist. Pitman likely would have transferred the sample to his rig and triggered it via his synth-keyboard, so one watching would have no idea is was lifted from an album. So it doesnt really surprise me if no one noticed. 

Believe it or not, I actually recognised the ambient parts as I had a couple of Ulrich Schnauss records after hearing his stuff as a soundtrack to Top Gear. I remember pointing it out on here at the time but most folk just dismissed it.

 

Hope I wasn't the one that made Ulrich's people aware...😐

[soon]

6 minutes ago, Bansidhe said:

Believe it or not, I actually recognised the ambient parts as I had a couple of Ulrich Schnauss records after hearing his stuff as a soundtrack to Top Gear. I remember pointing it out on here at the time but most folk just dismissed it.

 

Hope I wasn't the one that made Ulrich's people aware...😐

Oh no, maybe it was you! Seems like everything's sorted out and its water under the bridge now.

Good ear, btw

[RussTCB]

On 8/13/2018 at 9:39 AM, Azifwekare said:

That outro was fuckin' beautiful, a perfect end to the album.

COMPLETELY agree. I've always said that since the first time I played the album front to back. 

I had a friend a couple years back ask to play the album straight through, so we blasted it from beginning to end. As Prostitute was fading out, he said "Man, there's a LOT to take in during that album but I can't get over that ending. It's like they're saying 'take a minute to take everything you just heard in'". Thats the best description I've heard of it.