Tommy Stinson on Chinese, GNR and Axl

[Rovim]

4 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Guess he was talking in terms of songwriting and song structures. 

I would have thought Richard would want to take the credit for any lead work he came up with and also, Bucket joined Gn'R before Richard, obviously, but you know... just specualtion. 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Rovim

[2020_Intensions]

59 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Judging by the Village sessions, the 2001 setlists made sense. They played 5 CD-era songs, plus Oh My God. 

The 2002 sets were different. Asia and Europe had Riad being played 4 times, but Silkworms wasn't on either regions. OMG was already ditched too, and there was some gigs (Leeds at least) that had only 2 CD-era songs. The 2002 NA tour only got Riad once, in Detroit. All the other gigs were with the same setlist, with Chinese, Madagascar and The Blues/SOD.

But they were working in so many new stuff in studio, especially with a lot of cool additions by Bucket. Though he def only laid down his Chinese lead guitar somewhere between the NA Tour (when he added the second solo in the song) and 2003 (when he added his lead in the verses/chorus). The Blues outro solo was first recorded by Richard (I'm guessing with the NA tour promo snippet in mind), but later replaced by Bucket's very similar solo.

But just imagine if Better, TWAt and even IRS were already ready to be played back then. I think those songs would be a huge showcase of both Bucket and Robin's talent in songwriting and fresh guitar sounds back then.

There's no reason those songs weren't ready to be played live by the 2002 tour. Not one legitimate reason. They were recorded and ready to go by 2000. 

[Voodoochild]

2 minutes ago, 2020_Intensions said:

There's no reason those songs weren't ready to be played live by the 2002 tour. Not one legitimate reason. They were recorded and ready to go by 2000. 

I meant that we don't know if those songs already had Buckethead's contributions that made into the final album by then.

[2020_Intensions]

Just now, Voodoochild said:

I meant that we don't know if those songs already had Buckethead's contributions that made into the final album by then.

The whole thing doesn't make sense. The 2002 tour should have been in support of the new album. They barely played any new songs and then the tour fell apart and Axl disappears. And because of the Village leaks we now know that they had material for an album and if Axl actually did his part they had enough for two. 

[thunderram]

On 8/4/2023 at 7:06 AM, Dean said:

asn’t made another record since, which I think it’s unfortunate. He’s got a lot of talent to work with right now to make a really great record."

On Chinese:

"There is a lot going on in that record. I think people are going to realize it’s a really great record down the road. It’s going to be looked at historically as their best record, I think. You can look at the first records and stuff like that. They have the hits on them. But what is interesting about Chinese Democracy is there’s a lot of him in those songs. He sang a fucking ton about his life, and about life in general in those songs, moreso than just a rock ‘n’ roll song about a fucking drug addict, that kind of thing or “Sweet Child O’ Mine.” There’s a lot more going on there, depth-wise from him, mentally, than those earlier records."

 

The one thing I agree with is that I've always felt CD would be more appreciated as time goes on. It is a very interesting and good record. Just underappreciated due to the long, overwhelming anticipation, delays, and drastically changing mainstream music scene.

But in terms of being looked at as GN'R's best record by the masses? He's fucking stoned. And overly biased, clearly.

I understand that everyone has their own opinion, and there are certainly many that are fans of CD over all the other GN'R albums. But they are of a vast minority. This is proven by sales and streams, among many other factors. Stinson's comments are meant to encompass not just his own opinion, but eventually those of the masses. In that regard he is way out in left field.

I also get that there are some like Stinson that appreciate the lyrics contained within CD more than the other albums. But lyrics alone do not qualify one record as better than another. That's just silly talk.

Belittling AFD or some of the tunes on the UYI albums because some of the song lyrics talk about drug addiction rather than emotional baggage and break ups is just nonsensical.

AFD is widely regarded as one of the greatest hard rock records of all time. While the UYI albums don't own the same overall prestige, there are numerous songs on those albums (and the LIES EP) that are far more appreciated and respected by the masses than anything on CD. Thinking that'll ever change is beyond wishful thinking.

 

On 8/4/2023 at 7:12 AM, SlashisGOD said:

Chinese Democracy will certainly not be looked at as their best record.

 

Exactly. That's beyond fantasy land. It won't even be viewed as their 2nd or 3rd best record, except by a smaller niche group of fans.

FWIW, I'm a big fan of the CD record. But I personally have never considered it an actual GN'R record. Because it isn't. CD is no different than SLASH, IZZY, and DUFF's solo albums or their collaborations with other lineups, such as Loaded, Velvet Revolver, or SMKC. The only difference is that AXL had the rights to brand his solo work (or new band work) with the GN'R name and the other guys didn't. That's it.

I mean, had IZZY, DUFF or SLASH managed to wrestle away the rights to the GN'R name then stamped it on any of the official records they released w/o AXL -- it wouldn't be any different. They'd just be solo or new band albums leveraging the GN'R brand name to try to attract more attention. Essentially using the bait and switch tactic.

In reality, Velvet Revolver had more GN'R ingredients to it (especially when IZZY was first involved with "the Project") than NuGN'R ever did. But it still wouldn't have been an actual GN'R record w/o AXL. Same goes for AXL's lineup w/o a single other core GN'R member.

If Stinson or anyone else wants to make the argument that CD is or will be viewed as the best album made by any GN'R member after the breakup of the band, that would at least be a valid argument.

But even if myself and the masses were to concede CD as a true GN'R album, I find it super disingenuous to state that it will eventually be considered (by the masses) to be GN'R's best record.

Furthermore, I find it no coincidence that Stinson would state that the only record he had anything to do with is the best work of said band. Somebody is suffering from an overinflated ego and/or a complete lack of awareness of the historical impact of GN'R's earlier catalog, specifically AFD.

 

On 8/4/2023 at 7:18 AM, jamillos said:

And his UYI lyrics weren't personal? Come on, Tommy, Axl is not taking you back in the band. Duff's there, remember?

Pretty much most the lyrics on every album they ever released were personal. Even the lyrics written by the other band members, such as IZZY. Writing about your own drug addition or the addition of others you are close to is pretty personal, no?

Does Stinson really believe the only way to write great lyrics or deeply personal content is to write about current or past relationships? If so, I suppose that Stinson is a HUGE Taylor Swift fan, cause that's all she does!

Just off the top of my head, I'd rank the lyrics of songs such as Coma, SCOM, Don't Cry, RNDTH, Don't Damn Me, Civil War, Rocket Queen, Yesterdays, Breakdown, Locomotive and Estranged over anything off CD.

Edited August 10, 2023 by thunderram

[thunderram]

On 8/4/2023 at 8:43 AM, AxlRoseCDII said:

I personally think CD is the best GNR album. It will never, ever be perceived that way by the general public though, not now and not in 100 years.

 

^^ Now this is a self-aware response. Knowing that your opinion in no way represents the mainstream and more than likely never will.

If Tommy would have made the same statement but positioned it only as his own opinion -- good, great, grand, wonderful. However suggesting that it would become the mainstream view is what took the statement way over the top.

[thunderram]

On 8/4/2023 at 11:54 AM, Dean said:

It’s all subjective my man, we all have different tastes. 

 

Yes, it is subjective and certainly personal taste for Tommy to prefer AXL's solo album to GN'R's actual catalog.

However, it is neither of those things to predict that CD will be view historically by the mainstream (not just himself) as the best album released using the GN'R brand. That's just pure insanity not at all based upon anything factual or tangible.

[thunderram]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:24 PM, betterman said:

He is right regarding Chinese. By far the most complete album and way more mature and interesting than AFD and more cohesive than UYI.

Havent got the big singles though

 

No, he is not right. He and you are both wrong.

You (and he) are only right when it comes to your own subjective opinions. Nothing beyond that.

However, since you clearly lack the ability to understand what you read, let me recap again. Stinson didn't just state his own opinion, he further stated that it would eventually become the mainstream opinion from a historical perspective. He didn't use those exact words, of course, but that is essentially what he predicted.

There is literally no evidence to support a vast change of mainstream opinion. And we're already 15 years removed from the release of CD. Try finding ONE reputable publication that lists CD above AFD, or even UYI, or anywhere near a top 100 list.

Having said that, I can provide my strong subjective opinion too. I won't even bother comparing CD to the widely adopted masterpiece AFD. Instead I'll emphatically state that there is far more brilliance to be found among the 29 tunes spread across both UYI albums (not including "My World") than the 14 overly re-worked CD songs.

Even standing upon their own individual merit, each UYI album is superior to CD. Not only did they each contain a few hits (by your own admission)  -- which is something CD never achieved -- even  many of the deep cuts such as Coma, Locomotive, RNTDH, and Breakdown (just to name a few) rival or exceed the very best CD has to offer.

[thunderram]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:09 PM, rocknroll41 said:

@bettermanFWIW, I do agree that ChiDem is more mature than AFD/UYI

 

This is like the 3rd time I've seen this statement made. Time for you guys to show your work and how you've come to this conclusion.

Based upon what exactly?

And are you strictly talking about lyrics?? Cause it's a really odd thing to claim about the instrumental music, which really can't be quantified. Even the same can be said about judging the lyrics. People go through many changes over their life span, which obviously affects how they write. But simply being older and more experienced doesn't necessarily equate to greater maturity. If anything it often just speaks to softening over time.

So, please cite valid reasons why CD is more mature than any of AFD, LIES, or UYI. And please don't say it's "because you just like the lyrics better".

Edited August 10, 2023 by thunderram

[thunderram]

On 8/5/2023 at 5:17 AM, Rovim said:

so Tommy is not allowed to have an opinion about his favorite Gn'R album cause why exactly? especially when music is such a subjective topic.

So are some of you unable to comprehend what you read? This is like the 3rd or 4th time someone has made the same comment you have here. Where exactly is the disconnect?

Tommy didn't just provide his opinion, he further stated that his opinion would eventuality become the historical, mainstream view. That's the statement most are taking issue with, not his individual opinion.

Were you really unable to glean that?

Sure, you can double down and claim that it is also his opinion that the historical mainstream view will eventually change. But it's based upon nothing factual or concrete. I mean, I can say it is my opinion that the sky will eventually appear purple. But unless it is based upon something substantial and real, it's not really an opinion. It's just silly talk.

If I said right now that eventually the mainstream will view GN'R as more impactful and greater than the Beatles, can I really hand my hat on that being my opinion or just super wishful, fantasy land day dreaming not backup by a single measurable thing?

[thunderram]

On 8/5/2023 at 10:56 AM, JimiRose said:

Sadly no one in GnR continues to believe this. Whores for cash, nothing else. 

IDK, some in this thread would counter and just say they are "more mature" (like their lyrics, allegedly).

[thunderram]

On 8/5/2023 at 2:58 PM, Subtle Signs said:

Music is subjective but yeah if you were to poll 100 Gn'R fans you might find one or two that like it more than AFD or the Illusions.

And most likely those one or two fans would have been born in the late 90's or 2000's and not really "original" GN'R fans to begin with.

That's what AXL using the GN'R brand to release CD did --- it confused a lot of people. Had he just used his own name or a different band name as SLASH, DUFF, and IZZY all did, these younger kids wouldn't be claiming to be GN'R fans so much. Because many of them aren't. They are largely fans of AXL and/or the supporting cast that helped create that one album.

The fact that all those revolving band members from 1996-2015 are attached to the GN'R brand name just muddies up everything.

That said, I think the percentage of both casual and hardcore fans dating back to the 1985-1993 era that prefer CD are very, very low. Hell, I know many casual fans that are unaware that CD even exists. They couldn't name one song title.

[Dean]

1 hour ago, thunderram said:

Yes, it is subjective and certainly personal taste for Tommy to prefer AXL's solo album to GN'R's actual catalog.

However, it is neither of those things to predict that CD will be view historically by the mainstream (not just himself) as the best album released using the GN'R brand. That's just pure insanity not at all based upon anything factual or tangible.

He was asked a question, he answered it from his own perspective. I'm surprised it has rattled as many cages as it has. It's music at the end of the day, enjoy it or don't, the choice is y/ours!

[Rovim]

5 hours ago, thunderram said:

So are some of you unable to comprehend what you read? This is like the 3rd or 4th time someone has made the same comment you have here. Where exactly is the disconnect?

Tommy didn't just provide his opinion, he further stated that his opinion would eventuality become the historical, mainstream view. That's the statement most are taking issue with, not his individual opinion.

Were you really unable to glean that?

Sure, you can double down and claim that it is also his opinion that the historical mainstream view will eventually change. But it's based upon nothing factual or concrete. I mean, I can say it is my opinion that the sky will eventually appear purple. But unless it is based upon something substantial and real, it's not really an opinion. It's just silly talk.

If I said right now that eventually the mainstream will view GN'R as more impactful and greater than the Beatles, can I really hand my hat on that being my opinion or just super wishful, fantasy land day dreaming not backup by a single measurable thing?

it's based on nothing factual or concrete, that's ok cause that's just his opinion. He said "I think" at the end of the sentence you're talking about.

personally, I disagree with him on that part but that's not relevant.

[Blackstar]

Another recent interview:

When talk turns to the atmosphere around the band around the 2008 release of Chinese Democracy, which emerged some 17 years on from the band's last original albums, 1991's Use Your Illusion I and II, Stinson tells Stocks that he looks on the period fondly, describing it as "a crazy, beautiful mess."

"That Jimmy Iovine pulled that record out of Axl's hands at the fucking 11.30th hour is the only disappointing part of that," he adds. "I don't know if it would have changed anything about the public's view of it, the only thing it would have changed was Axl's view of it. He was this close to being able to sign off on that fucking thing, and they pulled it just before he was completely ready to be going 'I'm done with it', it was just a little too quick on that. That's unfortunate. But all things considered, we made a great record."

https://www.loudersound.com/news/guns-n-roses-tommy-stinson-on-axl-rose-chinese-democracy-punk-rock

The audio:

https://shows.acast.com/9623c775-3a86-479b-9d41-2c7842bb362b/6509c63e9727390011b7d2f3

[GnR Chris]

I put Chinese Democracy third behind Appetite for Destruction and Use Your Illusion 2.

Not that it really matters where people rank the album. It's a GNR record despite some people here pretending it's not.

[bumbleslash69]

I like Tommy a good deal, but it's important to remember he's a storyteller though first and foremost though. Have seen him in person a handful of times. Even came to a local library for a Q&A thing a little while back. He's definitely his own dude and not afraid to speak his opinion, but he's also very diplomatic with his answers around all things GnR and Replacements. He's promoting his own solo work currently and a huge Replacements remix/remaster for their album Tim btw. That's why he's given so many interviews the past few weeks. I'm almost surprised he hasn't given more GnR related soundbites.

 I'm not surprised he views Chinese Democracy so favorably or feels that the mainstream view on it will look at it as the quintessential GnR album. He also feels the same way about the last Replacements album, All Shook Down. Which was even more of a solo album than CD. I think he looks for and gets something else out of music than most people do. Which I'm sure is pretty similar for most recording artist and lifelong musicians. In his mind and in his circle of life, Chinese Democracy may have more clout than what it does in the actual mainstream world. Obviously, it's not the best Guns album. But I'm not surprised he would say it is.

[Tom2112]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:48 PM, D4NNY said:

Will it be viewed as their best? Most definitely not. But if you consider how it’s viewed now compared to how it was viewed in 2008-2013, there seems to be a lot more appreciation amongst even casual fans. Just looking at YouTube comments shows it truly has grown on people and aged quite nicely. A lot more people seem to appreciate the different sounds/musical directions and effort Axl put in to it as time goes on

It's definitely linked to people liking Axl a lot more these days. When it came out people were just ready to destroy Axl and he played into excellently by playing gigs 2/3 hrs late, and then having bizarre pro shot performances.

Anyway, considering how many plays some of the Chinese songs have in comparison to even some UYI and AFD songs, it's safe to say it has found its place. Some people will have it as their favourite, but cards down I think everyone settles on AFD