Tommy Stinson on Chinese, GNR and Axl

[PatrickS77]

46 minutes ago, JAxlMorrison said:

I’d find it highly surprising if the majority of the folks here weren’t attracted to Axl and his various incarnations of the band, and the promise of ChiDem, if they WERENT into his lyrics.

Well. Make a poll. For me it never was about lyrics. It always was about the music and performance. And I'd say for that type of music that is the majority. Of course, if you look at an artist like, say, Melissa Etheridge, lyrics are a different thing and much of the connection is lyrical. But that's a different type of genre/thing altogether. I don't think that applies to the average fan of the average rock/hard rock/heavy metal band (or many other genres). And for the record, I personally prefer for lyrics to not be insultingly dumb or simple, but at the end of the day, it's the music for that counts. If the lyrics are great, but the music sucks, that won't make me listen to somthing. But if the lyrics suck, but the music is great, I still will stick around.

Edited August 6, 2023 by PatrickS77

[Nintari]

22 hours ago, JimiRose said:

Sadly no one in GnR continues to believe this. Whores for cash, nothing else. 

[SlashisGOD]

1 hour ago, DoMw94 said:

Why do people still insist on doing this? 😂 The released song is called Street Of Dreams. It's not called The Blues, it was never released as The Blues, and that's been the case for 15 years now.

I prefer calling it The Blues as I think that sounds better and that’s how I first knew the song as.

Edited August 6, 2023 by SlashisGOD

[DoMw94]

20 minutes ago, SlashisGOD said:

I prefer calling it The Blues as I think that sounds better and that’s how I first knew the song as.

But it's not the song's name 😂 I know you're not the only one, so it's nothing personal, I just think it's ridiculous that people so stubbornly call a song completely the wrong title. Every song has working titles, yet somehow this one sticks as if people think it's some cool badge of honour that they knew about it before everyone else.

There isn't a song on Chinese Democracy called 'The Blues'.

[Dean]

3 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

But it's not the song's name 😂 I know you're not the only one, so it's nothing personal, I just think it's ridiculous that people so stubbornly call a song completely the wrong title. Every song has working titles, yet somehow this one sticks as if people think it's some cool badge of honour that they knew about it before everyone else.

There isn't a song on Chinese Democracy called 'The Blues'.

It was The Blues for 7 years before the album dropped. Axl introduced it as that when they first played it. It's not a big deal, each to their own!

[Rovim]

5 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

But it's not the song's name 😂 I know you're not the only one, so it's nothing personal, I just think it's ridiculous that people so stubbornly call a song completely the wrong title. Every song has working titles, yet somehow this one sticks as if people think it's some cool badge of honour that they knew about it before everyone else.

There isn't a song on Chinese Democracy called 'The Blues'.

I think it's the second name of the song, technically speaking. If not, then why would Axl say "I also like the idea of the song having in affect 2 titles", right after explaining the reason for the title change. 

[DoMw94]

10 minutes ago, Dean said:

It was The Blues for 7 years before the album dropped. Axl introduced it as that when they first played it. It's not a big deal, each to their own!

Right, before it was released. It's been released for more than twice that with a different name.

But like you say, each to their own I guess 🤷‍♂️ I personally wouldn't call anything – be that a song, an object, or a person – something that isn't its actual name just because I heard something else a long time ago.

Edited August 6, 2023 by DoMw94

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

1 hour ago, PatrickS77 said:

Well. Make a poll. For me it never was about lyrics. It always was about the music and performance. And I'd say for that type of music that is the majority. Of course, if you look at an artist like, say, Melissa Etheridge, lyrics are a different thing and much of the connection is lyrical. But that's a different type of genre/thing altogether. I don't think that applies to the average fan of the average rock/hard rock/heavy metal band (or many other genres). And for the record, I personally prefer for lyrics to not be insultingly dumb or simple, but at the end of the day, it's the music for that counts. If the lyrics are great, but the music sucks, that won't make me listen to somthing. But if the lyrics suck, but the music is great, I still will stick around.

I’d be interested in seeing the results of that poll.

Personally, I’d vote that the lyrics matter a lot. I think what set Guns N’ Roses apart from their contemporaries was that Axl actually had something to say. The Illusions aren’t just a rock album - they’re a work of art, and a lot of that is because Axl was at his absolute lyrical peak. It wasn’t just how he was saying it, it’s what he was saying.

Which is not to say that it all has to be Shakespeare. Nightrain isn’t anything poetic, but certain lines mixed with their delivery are right for the song. “Wake up late, honey put on your clothes and take your credit card to the liquor store” isn’t poetic…but it’s a fucking great line. And it works for the song. The inverse of that are songs like Out Ta Get Me, which I skip every time I listen to Appetite because I find the lyrics to be so cliché and bad. I know Anything Goes is popular here because the riff is awesome and it’s a rarity, but to me it’s just a standard 80s hard rock song about sex that Aerosmith could have pulled off better with a wink and a smile.

So lyrics, to me, matter a lot. And the Illusions were just absolutely masterful. Locomotive would be repetitive and almost boring, if it wasn’t for Axl’s fantastic wordplay. The entirety of Coma is perfect.

Chinese Democracy is an interesting case because it’s a different side of Axl’s writing, one that works with varied results. His lyrics are a lot more abstract on that album than anything he’d written before. The wit is gone - a song like “Sorry” probably could have been a bit better lyrically if it was written right after the Illusions, because it would have been sharper and more venomous, as opposed to it being so direct. Riad and the Bedouins is a bit too abstract to really understand the message. If the World is pretty vague to the point of having no emotional connection.

On the other hand, songs like Madagascar really shine with a more abstract approach. The metaphor of a man lost in the wilderness and trying to find his way to shore is great. Same goes for TWAT - it does an excellent job of setting the mood. The imagery is evocative without being incredibly specific - it seems to be about a breakup, but who knows what’s actually going on there. Yet it works. 

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion. But for me, lyrics absolutely matter.

[D4NNY]

33 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

Right, before it was released. It's been released for more than twice that with a different name.

But like you say, each to their own I guess 🤷‍♂️ I personally wouldn't call anything – be that a song, an object, or a person – something that isn't its actual name just because I heard something else a long time ago.

Do you call Slash “Saul” then? 😅

[DoMw94]

6 minutes ago, D4NNY said:

Do you call Slash “Saul” then? 😅

That's entirely different and you know it. But nice attempt at stirring the pot 😂

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

9 minutes ago, D4NNY said:

Do you call Slash “Saul” then? 😅

I might if he was Saul from 1987-1994.

Hell, there are still people who call John Mellencamp “John Cougar” or “John Cougar Mellencamp.”

For some of us, we listened to these songs a *lot* under the demo titles. While I’ve mainly gotten over it for songs like Absurd, if “Atlas Shrugged” gets released tomorrow under title “To Be A Man,” it’ll take a while for me to adjust.

[D4NNY]

2 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

That's entirely different and you know it. But nice attempt at stirring the pot 😂

But is it entirely different though..? 

[D4NNY]

2 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

I might if he was Saul from 1987-1994.

Hell, there are still people who call John Mellencamp “John Cougar” or “John Cougar Mellencamp.”

For some of us, we listened to these songs a *lot* under the demo titles. While I’ve mainly gotten over it for songs like Absurd, if “Atlas Shrugged” gets released tomorrow under title “To Be A Man,” it’ll take a while for me to adjust.

I was just making a sly joke because he said “I personally wouldn't call anything – be that a song, an object, or a person – something that isn't its actual name” 

I understand we all know him as and call him Slash but legally it is Saul and I thought it would be funny and not serious, sorry to all that took my silly post as serious talk 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

5 minutes ago, D4NNY said:

I was just making a sly joke because he said “I personally wouldn't call anything – be that a song, an object, or a person – something that isn't its actual name” 

I understand we all know him as and call him Slash but legally it is Saul and I thought it would be funny and not serious, sorry to all that took my silly post as serious talk 

My fault. I’m feeling particularly argumentative today.

[D4NNY]

2 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

My fault. I’m feeling particularly argumentative today.

If I was going to get involved in this debate though I’d stir the pot and say I still call Shacklers Revenge “Chicken Dinner” 😂

[Gordon Comstock]

1 hour ago, DoMw94 said:

But it's not the song's name 😂 I know you're not the only one, so it's nothing personal, I just think it's ridiculous that people so stubbornly call a song completely the wrong title. Every song has working titles, yet somehow this one sticks as if people think it's some cool badge of honour that they knew about it before everyone else.

There isn't a song on Chinese Democracy called 'The Blues'.

 

The song changed enough over time that it's fair to use either title. The Blues = the 2000-2007 demos and live performances, and SOD = the album version and later live performances.

The Blues was far better than Street Of Dreams IMO, especially the 2000-2002 versions.

[metalavenger99]

4 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

Why do people still insist on doing this? 😂 The released song is called Street Of Dreams. It's not called The Blues, it was never released as The Blues, and that's been the case for 15 years now.

I agree 

Time to switch it up already, for example nobody still calls Absurd “Silkworms“

But i do agree that the version called The Blues was better

[janrichmond]

I don’t like SOD but The Blues is great. 

 

[©GnrPersia]

4 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

But it's not the song's name 😂 I know you're not the only one, so it's nothing personal, I just think it's ridiculous that people so stubbornly call a song completely the wrong title. Every song has working titles, yet somehow this one sticks as if people think it's some cool badge of honour that they knew about it before everyone else.

There isn't a song on Chinese Democracy called 'The Blues'.

Axl kept introducing the song as "The Blues" from 2001 up until 2007. So it's kind of hardwired in our minds. I get your point though, but hey, this is a fan forum, so we call it The Blues and everyone gets it.

50 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

I don’t like SOD but The Blues is great. 

 

There you go ^ here's a die hard CD fan preferring The Blues. 

[Dummy]

I think that chinese democracy is their best album. Only illusion 1 comes close.

[DownUnderScott]

On 8/5/2023 at 10:17 PM, Rovim said:

so Tommy is not allowed to have an opinion about his favorite Gn'R album cause why exactly? especially when music is such a subjective topic.

He doesn’t say it is his favourite album, which is what you have just said. He said it will historically be seen as their best album. C’mon man, that’s just dumb. 

[JAxlMorrison]

13 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

Well. Make a poll. For me it never was about lyrics. It always was about the music and performance. And I'd say for that type of music that is the majority. Of course, if you look at an artist like, say, Melissa Etheridge, lyrics are a different thing and much of the connection is lyrical. But that's a different type of genre/thing altogether. I don't think that applies to the average fan of the average rock/hard rock/heavy metal band (or many other genres). And for the record, I personally prefer for lyrics to not be insultingly dumb or simple, but at the end of the day, it's the music for that counts. If the lyrics are great, but the music sucks, that won't make me listen to somthing. But if the lyrics suck, but the music is great, I still will stick around.

We just park our cars in different garages. I’m all about the lyrics. People confuse me as like a metal head or an 80s metal guy etc cause I like GNR, then I listen to Carole king or 2Pac or David Allen Coe, and they go, wait a minute…

[PatrickS77]

4 hours ago, JAxlMorrison said:

We just park our cars in different garages. I’m all about the lyrics. People confuse me as like a metal head or an 80s metal guy etc cause I like GNR, then I listen to Carole king or 2Pac or David Allen Coe, and they go, wait a minute…

You make it sound like they have bad music.

[©GnrPersia]

10 hours ago, DownUnderScott said:

He doesn’t say it is his favourite album, which is what you have just said. He said it will historically be seen as their best album. C’mon man, that’s just dumb. 

Any opinion against yours is just dumb. I get it. You are the best of the best man. Have fun! 

[jimisbatman]

On 8/5/2023 at 2:22 AM, CAFC Nick said:

Not sure history will view it as their best but definitely their most progressive.

Or, it's their best album from 1999 - 2024 😂 

Just now, jimisbatman said:

Or, it's their best album from 1999 - 2024 😂 

Man Axl's wasted some time, wow