Caram or Axl?

[AxlRQ93]

who do you blame for the sound issues with the general and hs also sounding bad?

[Rovim]

Emerson, Lake, and Palmer.

[Voodoochild]

Both. To be fair, everyone in the band who heard this final mix and went away with it.

[StrangerInThisTown]

All this music that gets released sounds exactly like Axl wants it to, there is no other way. Let's hope for a better production for Eye On You

[Tom2112]

5 minutes ago, StrangerInThisTown said:

All this music that gets released sounds exactly like Axl wants it to, there is no other way. Let's hope for a better production for Eye On You

Let's hope 'eye on you' is buried so far down that it never sees the light of day. I can only imagine the reception that monstrosity would have, given that it's unquestionably worse than Absurd and The general😄 it's like gnr want us to listen to My world and say "I guess this wasn't so bad afterall"😄

[DeNfr]

2 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Let's hope 'eye on you' is buried so far down that it never sees the light of day. 

[El Guapo]

After the final version of The General, I can totally see Eye on You as the next release.

[StrangerInThisTown]

16 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Let's hope 'eye on you' is buried so far down that it never sees the light of day. I can only imagine the reception that monstrosity would have, given that it's unquestionably worse than Absurd and The general😄 it's like gnr want us to listen to My world and say "I guess this wasn't so bad afterall"😄

I was being facetious, but in a way I DO want Eye On You to come out just because it would be hilarious to release that song now, especially after The General. Then they can always right the ship big time with Monsters and SOG lol.

[Flayer]

I like Eye On You. Bite me. I’ve shown it to several other people who did.

There’s no going downhill from what they did to The General, short of another release with the exact same issue.

You go to a restaurant, you order a meal, the steak arrives and it’s not the exact temperature you prefer, or the flavor isn’t to your liking, or the portions are skimpy, or you sat around waiting for your food to arrive for over an hour. Those are your complaints about any of these other songs.

The General is when your food is served with bits of plastic visibly sticking out of it, and the cook on the line, the kitchen’s head chef, and your waiter all failed to notice before passing it on to you.

The engineers, the band, the label, it’s an embarrassment for all of them, and it’s simply inexcusable. How am I supposed to respect an artist who doesn’t respect their own art?

[Appetitefordiscussion]

I just don’t get why you’d spend 14million on studio time and top tier  engineers just to not mix everything well in post production. I really like Caram and how Chinese sounds. I hate that the new GnR stuff sounds like their best attempt at a modern rock album (especially with these over compressed drums). Just give us how it was mixed in the 2000s lol. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Appetitefordiscussion

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

Let's hope 'eye on you' is buried so far down that it never sees the light of day. I can only imagine the reception that monstrosity would have, given that it's unquestionably worse than Absurd and The general😄 it's like gnr want us to listen to My world and say "I guess this wasn't so bad afterall"😄

Why care about the reception? 

27 minutes ago, Flayer said:

I like Eye On You. Bite me. I’ve shown it to several other people who did.

There’s no going downhill from what they did to The General, short of another release with the exact same issue.

You go to a restaurant, you order a meal, the steak arrives and it’s not the exact temperature you prefer, or the flavor isn’t to your liking, or the portions are skimpy, or you sat around waiting for your food to arrive for over an hour. Those are your complaints about any of these other songs.

The General is when your food is served with bits of plastic visibly sticking out of it, and the cook on the line, the kitchen’s head chef, and your waiter all failed to notice before passing it on to you.

The engineers, the band, the label, it’s an embarrassment for all of them, and it’s simply inexcusable. How am I supposed to respect an artist who doesn’t respect their own art?

There is no shame in releasing music not everyone likes. 

[adamsapple]

2 hours ago, AxlRQ93 said:

who do you blame for the sound issues with the general and hs also sounding bad?

W. Axl Rose. Period. Full stop. He's the boss, he runs the show.

[Tom2112]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Why care about the reception? 

There is no shame in releasing music not everyone likes. 

I don't really care about the reception as much as I care that it's a terrible piece of music.

I never in a million years would have thought people on here would legitimately think it's anything other than atrocious. 

1 hour ago, StrangerInThisTown said:

I was being facetious, but in a way I DO want Eye On You to come out just because it would be hilarious to release that song now, especially after The General. Then they can always right the ship big time with Monsters and SOG lol.

Clever, lower expectations so much that when they come out with anything half way decent people are bowled over. Dis you Nando?

[StrangerInThisTown]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

Clever, lower expectations so much that when they come out with anything half way decent people are bowled over. Dis you Nando?

No, because it would be pure comedy to read all the responses to that song, I don't care about any of that other shit you mentioned lol

Edited December 12, 2023 by StrangerInThisTown

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

I don't really care about the reception as much as I care that it's a terrible piece of music.

I never in a million years would have thought people on here would legitimately think it's anything other than atrocious.

Yet you talked about the poor reception as if it matters. 

What is weird to me is either being surprised that GN'R would release a song one does not like (considering the highly variable output they have had) or finding The General to be so much worse to illicit all the hysteria we have seen on the forum recently. 

[Flayer]

4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Why care about the reception? 

There is no shame in releasing music not everyone likes. 

I agree with this, but it's not the issue here. I am in fact one of the people who loves the song. I've listened to the leak (where the audio issues were not as blatant) 200+ times, eagerly shown it off to my friends, recorded myself singing it. Some will like it, some will hate it, that's how it always is. I'm not one of those people who will stand and say "everything is subjective, anything is acceptable." I believe there are minimum standards of quality that should be expected of artists. At the very least, artists should be using whatever potential they have to the full extent that they can. You may or may not enjoy their work, but it at least deserves some respect if they've tried their best with what they have (even if it doesn't live up to the best they've ever done), and it definitely deserves admiration when it exceeds the limitations that they've shown in the past. On the other hand, artists who don't try their best, who let their potential go to waste and do so by choice, they deserve derision.

I don't believe any of the post-CD material, even the most divisive songs like Absurd or Eye On You, fails to meet that standard purely on the merit of the music. I accept that this is pretty much the best Axl is capable of coming up with at this point in his life (and in the cases of those, the best he can do when branching out in experimental directions). Like it or not (and I happen to like most of it), it's music. It may be far from his or the band's best work, but it was, at the very least, work.

Releasing the General in its present state, with blatant, sub-amateur mixing mistakes, is the opposite of that - it's the absence of work, and it is shameful. It calls the professionalism of the band and everyone involved in this release into question. It casts doubt upon how much Axl really cared about the song - did he even listen to the final mix at all before putting it out? I refuse to believe anyone with functioning ears could have given this a more than cursory listen and failed to notice such obvious errors. The integrity of the song itself is hurt by this. Setting aside opinions on whether the music is good or bad, the General's subject matter is gut-wrenching, on that there is no disagreement. Axl was committing some of the worst memories he's ever experienced to these lyrics, things he's never put into music before. Taking such heartfelt material and treating it so carelessly robs it of its sincerity. How can listeners care as deeply about the song as they could when the artist who created it didn't even care enough to give it a proper listen themselves before releasing it?

In short, Guns and everyone involved in this were not trying their best when they released this version. It's obvious, and it's indisputable. They weren't trying anywhere close to their best, and in fact, I'd say they weren't really trying at all, because if they were, with even a minimal level of effort, these errors would have been noticed and corrected. So yes, shame on them, and shame on them especially for doing this to such an emotional song. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Flayer

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, Flayer said:

I agree with this, but it's not the issue here. I am in fact one of the people who loves the song. I've listened to the leak (where the audio issues were not as blatant) 200+ times, eagerly shown it off to my friends, recorded myself singing it. Some will like it, some will hate it, that's how it always is. I'm not one of those people who will stand and say "everything is subjective, anything is acceptable." I believe there are minimum standards of quality that should be expected of artists. At the very least, artists should be using whatever potential they have to the full extent that they can. You may or may not enjoy their work, but it at least deserves some respect if they've tried their best with what they have (even if it doesn't live up to the best they've ever done), and it definitely deserves admiration when it exceeds the limitations that they've shown in the past. On the other hand, artists who don't try their best, who let their potential go to waste and do so by choice, they deserve derision.

I don't believe any of the post-CD material, even the most divisive songs like Absurd or Eye On You, fails to meet that standard purely on the merit of the music. I accept that this is pretty much the best Axl is capable of coming up with at this point in his life (and in the cases of those, the best he can do when branching out in experimental directions). Like it or not (and I happen to like most of it), it's music. It may be far from his or the band's best work, but it was, at the very least, work.

Releasing the General in its present state, with blatant, sub-amateur mixing mistakes, is the opposite of that - it's the absence of work, and it is shameful. It calls the professionalism of the band and everyone involved in this release into question. It casts doubt upon how much Axl really cared about the song - did he even listen to the final mix at all before putting it out? I refuse to believe anyone with functioning ears could have given this a more than cursory listen and failed to notice such obvious errors. The integrity of the song itself is hurt by this. Setting aside opinions on whether the music is good or bad, the General's subject matter is gut-wrenching, on that there is no disagreement. Axl was committing some of the worst memories he's ever experienced to these lyrics, things he's never put into music before. Taking such heartfelt material and treating it so carelessly robs it of its sincerity. How can listeners care as deeply about the song as they could when the artist who created it didn't even care enough to give it a proper listen themselves before releasing it?

In short, Guns and everyone involved in this were not trying their best when they released this version. It's obvious, and it's indisputable. They weren't trying anywhere close to their best, and in fact, I'd say they weren't really trying at all, because if they were, with even a minimal level of effort, these errors would have been noticed and corrected. So yes, shame on them, and shame on them especially for doing this to such an emotional song. 

Could it be deliberate as an artistic choice? I don't hear any issues but I don't have a high-end system either. Obviously, if there are actual mistakes that is anateurish but as far as I know there have been different opinions in the "loudness war" and it was en vogue for a while to mix high with the loss of dynamics as a consequence. 

Again, I don't hear it. Arguing that this is evidence that the band isn't giving it their 100% could very well be true, but the same could be said over almost all their releases where decisions have been made that I subjectively felt hurt the music or where they simply made mistakes (like the artwork to CD, the artwork to this single, etc). 

It is simply hard for me to reconcile the extremely emotional reactions here to simply people thinking the mixing could be better. 

[Flayer]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Could it be deliberate as an artistic choice? I don't hear any issues but I don't have a high-end system either. Obviously, if there are actual mistakes that is anateurish but as far as I know there have been different opinions in the "loudness war" and it was en vogue for a while to mix high with the loss of dynamics as a consequence. 

Again, I don't hear it. Arguing that this is evidence that the band isn't giving it their 100% could very well be true, but the same could be said over almost all their releases where decisions have been made that I subjectively felt hurt the music or where they simply made mistakes (like the artwork to CD, the artwork to this single, etc). 

It is simply hard for me to reconcile the extremely emotional reactions here to simply people thinking the mixing could be better. 

They didn’t play it live with dissonant clicking and scratching sounds on the chorus, so no, I have a hard time believing that could have been an intentional choice. 

[Voodoochild]

23 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Could it be deliberate as an artistic choice? I don't hear any issues but I don't have a high-end system either. Obviously, if there are actual mistakes that is anateurish but as far as I know there have been different opinions in the "loudness war" and it was en vogue for a while to mix high with the loss of dynamics as a consequence. 

Again, I don't hear it. Arguing that this is evidence that the band isn't giving it their 100% could very well be true, but the same could be said over almost all their releases where decisions have been made that I subjectively felt hurt the music or where they simply made mistakes (like the artwork to CD, the artwork to this single, etc). 

It is simply hard for me to reconcile the extremely emotional reactions here to simply people thinking the mixing could be better. 

The thing is: is the mixing a problem outside of the forums? I don't think so. But still, the issue is very real to me.

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

The thing is: is the mixing a problem outside of the forums? I don't think so. But still, the issue is very real to me.

An issue to me, something I feel is more tangient, is adding so much distortion on Axl's vocals that it is hard to hear what he says in the chorus. Anyway, that is an artistic choice. 

As for the clipping, I am happy I don't hear it, but a quick Google search tells me it is a fairly common thing in a lot of music. 

[Flayer]

2 hours ago, Voodoochild said:

The thing is: is the mixing a problem outside of the forums? I don't think so. But still, the issue is very real to me.

Reposting some content that I added to the pinned thread:

The most liked and replied to comment on the official Youtube video is "Who in the hell mixed this?"

The number one search result from Reddit on Google is a thread on r/audioengineering where the mix is being ripped to shreds by almost all commenters.

Quotes:
The thing is back in the day people would have said “this sounds like shit” but because they’re so legendary now everyone that works for them are essentially yes men who are to fearful to speak their mind.

Dude you weren't exaggerating. The drums are obvious samples, sound like shit, and they're clipping on one side so loud it's drowning out everything else. There's no bass guitar (or bass in the kick it's all attack) at all and the vocals are just ewwwwww!

The clipping is very bad I thought it was gonna be more subtle than that. I think even ordinary folks that don't do any mixing or nythig like that will notice that. Maybe they'll consider it an interesting effect? Idk, but that's really bad. I also didn't really like the way they did the vocals, and the delay on them made the fact they didn't tune the vocals so much more apparent. But I really understand the decision not to tune them. However, they should have done more takes, imo.

So my brother was in GnR for several years so I know how that band works (he left several years ago)… their FOH guy mixed Chinese Democracy (which is terrible)… so I’m guessing they did the same thing as they keep everything inside their own bubble. Not gonna speak to the song (which sucks) but just the recording: my guess is they did the same thing they did with Chinese Democracy where they had the FOH (Karem) mix it… it’s probably the worst recording/mix I’ve ever heard. Axl is extremely insulated and surrounded by “yes men” and this is what happens. This isn’t a pro mix by any stretch.

The clipping is ABSURD. Like really. Unbelievable. Never heard anything like this

Sometimes when folks complain about bad production or mixes on here I listen to the song and do a bit of an eye roll because the song ends up being perfectly serviceable. However. This song sounds like shit. I genuinely cannot believe it sounds this bad.

It genuinely sounds like something I've recorded at home using Superior Drummer 3 and Helix Native, thinking it was great and then returned to a few days later and its gone straight in the bin.

Wow I just listened to it. Sounds like this was mixed on big speakers with no regard for translation . There no excitement. Its so flat and the clipping is hilarious. Personally I'm not into the music, but the mix ain't helping persuade me to enjoy it more.

God damn you weren't lying, this shit sounds absolutely horrible lol. Yeah that kick especially is just atrocious and the clicking from it clipping in the right speaker during the chorus is horrid

Die hard gnr fan..and novice engineer... this song made me sad.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Flayer

[Voodoochild]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

An issue to me, something I feel is more tangient, is adding so much distortion on Axl's vocals that it is hard to hear what he says in the chorus. Anyway, that is an artistic choice. 

As for the clipping, I am happy I don't hear it, but a quick Google search tells me it is a fairly common thing in a lot of music. 

I don’t mind the distortion on vocals. Maybe I’m more used to weird things like that because of my personal musical taste. 

2 hours ago, Flayer said:

Reposting some content that I added to the pinned thread:

The most liked and replied to comment on the official Youtube video is "Who in the hell mixed this?"

The number one search result from Reddit on Google is a thread on r/audioengineering where the mix is being ripped to shreds by almost all commenters.

Quotes:
The thing is back in the day people would have said “this sounds like shit” but because they’re so legendary now everyone that works for them are essentially yes men who are to fearful to speak their mind.

Dude you weren't exaggerating. The drums are obvious samples, sound like shit, and they're clipping on one side so loud it's drowning out everything else. There's no bass guitar (or bass in the kick it's all attack) at all and the vocals are just ewwwwww!

The clipping is very bad I thought it was gonna be more subtle than that. I think even ordinary folks that don't do any mixing or nythig like that will notice that. Maybe they'll consider it an interesting effect? Idk, but that's really bad. I also didn't really like the way they did the vocals, and the delay on them made the fact they didn't tune the vocals so much more apparent. But I really understand the decision not to tune them. However, they should have done more takes, imo.

So my brother was in GnR for several years so I know how that band works (he left several years ago)… their FOH guy mixed Chinese Democracy (which is terrible)… so I’m guessing they did the same thing as they keep everything inside their own bubble. Not gonna speak to the song (which sucks) but just the recording: my guess is they did the same thing they did with Chinese Democracy where they had the FOH (Karem) mix it… it’s probably the worst recording/mix I’ve ever heard. Axl is extremely insulated and surrounded by “yes men” and this is what happens. This isn’t a pro mix by any stretch.

The clipping is ABSURD. Like really. Unbelievable. Never heard anything like this

Sometimes when folks complain about bad production or mixes on here I listen to the song and do a bit of an eye roll because the song ends up being perfectly serviceable. However. This song sounds like shit. I genuinely cannot believe it sounds this bad.

It genuinely sounds like something I've recorded at home using Superior Drummer 3 and Helix Native, thinking it was great and then returned to a few days later and its gone straight in the bin.

Wow I just listened to it. Sounds like this was mixed on big speakers with no regard for translation . There no excitement. Its so flat and the clipping is hilarious. Personally I'm not into the music, but the mix ain't helping persuade me to enjoy it more.

God damn you weren't lying, this shit sounds absolutely horrible lol. Yeah that kick especially is just atrocious and the clicking from it clipping in the right speaker during the chorus is horrid

Die hard gnr fan..and novice engineer... this song made me sad.

Well, this is hardly representative of the regular audience. But they are mostly right - I even said a lot of the same things myself. I just strongly disagree with the guy bitching because they didn’t use autotune for Axl. There’s nothing really wrong with the tuning, and to use this would be way worse to me. 

[evilfacelessturtle]

I wonder if this will stop people from confidently insisting that any professional musician would catch issues immediately. Slash never seemed to be the type that really cared about production, he just wanted to pump out material. Being an artist doesn't mean you automatically have an ear attuned to the technical side of things. Also, by the time an artist is done recording something, they're sick of it. Once it gets to mixing and mastering, their ears are burnt out.

So yeah, in theory the band should have caught it, but the biggest failure is the guy whose job it was to mix it.

1 hour ago, Voodoochild said:

I just strongly disagree with the guy bitching because they didn’t use autotune for Axl. There’s nothing really wrong with the tuning, and to use this would be way worse to me. 

There's quite a bit of autotune on CD. I'm surprised they didn't do it.

[Gunner Gilby]

Well it's always been Axl's band and he has the final say. So him.

[DSTK]

Blame both, caram mixes & it's axl's band, but surely duff,Slash etc all have the ability to say something if they think it's bad 

I like the general so no complaints here