Caram or Axl?

[Voodoochild]

9 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

There's quite a bit of autotune on CD. I'm surprised they didn't do it.

It's there, but not noticeable IMO. I don't think it's really necessary to use it in neither The General and Monsters. It's fine the way it is, rock music shouldn't be perfect anyways.

[Amir]

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Let's hope 'eye on you' is buried so far down that it never sees the light of day. I can only imagine the reception that monstrosity would have, given that it's unquestionably worse than Absurd and The general😄 it's like gnr want us to listen to My world and say "I guess this wasn't so bad afterall"😄

Eye On You >>> ABSURD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The General

[DoMw94]

17 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Slash never seemed to be the type that really cared about production

He absolutely cares. Listen to how he talks about the SMKC stuff. Like insisting the early records were on tape for the sound, going with Dave Cobb because of his reputation and wanting to do things live etc.

He cares generally. But I'm guessing he treated these new GN'R songs more like session work. He came in, laid down his parts, then moved on

Edited December 13, 2023 by DoMw94

[Mikey Whipwreck]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:10 AM, Appetitefordiscussion said:

I just don’t get why you’d spend 14million on studio time and top tier  engineers just to not mix everything well in post production. I really like Caram and how Chinese sounds. I hate that the new GnR stuff sounds like their best attempt at a modern rock album (especially with these over compressed drums). Just give us how it was mixed in the 2000s lol. 

CD sounded like the product of someone who cared to much, most of the redone reunion era songs sound like the product of someone who stopped caring altogether. 

Absurd sounds OK but the weird out of time vocal splice completely takes me out if it.

Hard School is a solid song but the mixing and mastering are awful. Overcompressed, flat, dull. The drums from the demo gave it some real drive and a sense of urgency while that aspect has been completely neutered. 

Perhaps sounds pretty good, unlike the first two it actually sounds better than the demo sound quality wise especially the clarity of the vocals on the chorus.

The General is like Hard School, overcompressed, dull, way too loud. Yet the orchestral parts which sound really cool live during the pre-chorus are buried in the mix and super flat on the studio version. One step forward, two steps back. 

These make the mixing and mastering on Oh My God sound good by comparison. 

I just listened to CD and played with these new tracks right after, it's like day and night. Even with the extra busy nature of CD with the million layers of guitars, keyboards and orchestration it still sounds crisper and warmer at the same time which is a testament to how shit the production is on these new tracks. 

 

[invisible_rose]

1 hour ago, DoMw94 said:

He absolutely cares. Listen to how he talks about the SMKC stuff. Like insisting thenearly records were on tape for the sound, going with Dave Cobb because of hisnreputation and wanting to do things live etc.

He cares generally. But I'm guessing he treated these new GN'R songs more like session work. He came in, laid down his parts, then moved on

I think this is the nail on the head. Slash & Duff most likely did their bits and that was their input done. Sent over to Axl et al to mix. It's just the CD booklet all over again. Half arsed and ironically rushed at the end, quite likely due to procrastination rather than perfection. 

[ZoSoRose]

1 hour ago, DoMw94 said:

 

He cares generally. But I'm guessing he treated these new GN'R songs more like session work. He came in, laid down his parts, then moved on

Sad but very likely true. It is a bummer Slash and Duff are almost like side players in their own band, creatively. I'm sure a lot of big bands operate closer to this than we think. I wonder how much creative input Keith had on Hackney Diamonds

57 minutes ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

 

I just listened to CD and played with these new tracks right after, it's like day and night. Even with the extra busy nature of CD with the million layers of guitars, keyboards and orchestration it still sounds crisper and warmer at the same time which is a testament to how shit the production is on these new tracks. 

 

CD is overall an incredibly produced album. It is a miracle it sounds as good as it does with all of the layers imo. It sounds way better than the reunion songs. Absurd has pretty good production, actually. 

[Flayer]

I think the mix on CD is generally beautiful but it’s lacking in muscle. Bass is almost inaudible on a majority of the songs. I believe songs like Shackler’s, Riad, Scraped, and Sorry would have benefited from having a little more heft behind them.

It is certainly leagues above the production on any of the newer singles, which have all felt varying degrees of sloppy and careless (Perhaps being the least in that regard, and The General the worst).

Edited December 13, 2023 by Flayer

[Sweersa]

4 minutes ago, Flayer said:

I think the mix on CD is generally beautiful but it’s lacking in muscle. Bass is almost inaudible on a majority of the songs. I believe songs like Shackler’s, Riad, Scraped, and Sorry would have benefited from having a little more heft behind them.

I couldn't agree more on the bass. Most of the demos had it at a good level in those rough mixes.  The Sean Beavan mix of TWAT really had it set good, and the 2000 mixes of CD as well.

[MaskingApathy]

17 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Slash never seemed to be the type that really cared about production

He definitely doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't have been ok with SMKC 4 being released in its final form. That's a pretty amateur sounding mix too.

I'm blaming Caram, I've always said that he doesn't really know what he's doing. Absurd and HS aren't bad but Perhaps and General are pretty bad mixes imo.

[DoMw94]

1 hour ago, Flayer said:

Bass is almost inaudible on a majority of the songs.

I think this is why I like Chinese Democracy, the song, more nowadays with the current lineup. Duff's bass is right there and when the song gets going it's like a punch in the face.

A bassy Chinese Democracy remaster would be fantastic.

  

34 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

He definitely doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't have been ok with SMKC 4 being released in its final form. That's a pretty amateur sounding mix too.

He got exactly what he wanted with 4. Regardless of how it sounds, he clearly put a lot of thought into how he wanted it produced. Him not caring and fans not liking the final product are two very, very different things.

https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/slash-interview-myles-kennedy-4-live-album-1235028514/

Edited December 13, 2023 by DoMw94

[MaskingApathy]

11 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

I think this is why I like Chinese Democracy, the song, better nowadays with the current lineup. Duff's bass is right there and when the song gets going it's like a punch in the face.

A bassy Chinese Democracy remaster would be fantastic.

  

He got exactly what he wanted with 4. Regardless of how it sounds, he clearly put a lot of thought into how he wanted it produced. Him not caring and fans not liking the final product are two very, very different things.

https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/slash-interview-myles-kennedy-4-live-album-1235028514/

Yeah he put a lot of thought into the recording process but I don't think he cared about the details of the mix. There's a pretty big contrast between the records that Elvis mixed for him and this one.

[DoMw94]

3 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

There's a pretty big contrast between the records that Elvis mixed for him and this one.

True. Even the difference between World on Fire and Living the Dream – analogue v digital. Living the Dream sounds good, but World on Fire was spotless imo

[evilfacelessturtle]

6 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

He absolutely cares. Listen to how he talks about the SMKC stuff. Like insisting the early records were on tape for the sound, going with Dave Cobb because of his reputation and wanting to do things live etc.

He cares generally. But I'm guessing he treated these new GN'R songs more like session work. He came in, laid down his parts, then moved on

He cares conceptually, but not so much about the gritty details of mixing and mastering. And frankly, I'd bet money that he cannot tell the difference between tape and digital if blindfolded, just like wine connoisseurs can't tell an expensive wine from a cheap one blindfolded.

I mean, just listen to the mix on albums like Contraband and 5 O'Clock Somewhere. If he had a good ear for production/mixing, those albums would not have turned out the way they did. He's an artist, not an audio engineer.

[Karice]

It's funny that The OP is talking about how bad The General sounds, because when The General was first being released, the general(Pun intended, I'm not sure as I just thought of it as I write this post, 😜) consensus was that it sounded GREAT, but now people are talking about it sounding BAD. Is this the case of listening with rose colored ears at first (My take on the popular saying Rose colored glasses. 😜 and now people are like,"Wow, that actually sounds BAD now that the honeymoon phase of the song is over? 🤔

[Gordon Comstock]

11 minutes ago, Karice said:

It's funny that The OP is talking about how bad The General sounds, because when The General was first being released, the general(Pun intended, I'm not sure as I just thought of it as I write this post, 😜) consensus was that it sounded GREAT, but now people are talking about it sounding BAD. Is this the case of listening with rose colored ears at first (My take on the popular saying Rose colored glasses. 😜 and now people are like,"Wow, that actually sounds BAD now that the honeymoon phase of the song is over? 🤔

 

The leak sounded rough enough that a surprising amount of people thought it was a demo. Or a rip from a bad batch of vinyl. Most people expected the final product to sound significantly better than the leak, but the released version still has plenty of issues.

Mixing and production issues aside, it's just not a great song. It's not awful, but it's an odd choice for a single. On the other hand, Monsters kinda reminds be of the early leaks of Better. The quality isn't perfect but the song itself is good, I'm still listening to it regularly, which I can't say about The General...

[doakes]

Is it possible that Apple Music, Spotify, Youtube, etc. run their own normalization which affects the compression/ mastering?

My Hard Skool cassette sounds a lot better to me than the stream.

[Appetitefordiscussion]

1 hour ago, Karice said:

It's funny that The OP is talking about how bad The General sounds, because when The General was first being released, the general(Pun intended, I'm not sure as I just thought of it as I write this post, 😜) consensus was that it sounded GREAT, but now people are talking about it sounding BAD. Is this the case of listening with rose colored ears at first (My take on the popular saying Rose colored glasses. 😜 and now people are like,"Wow, that actually sounds BAD now that the honeymoon phase of the song is over? 🤔

Overall, it DOES sound great as far as tones go. I could do w/o the distortion but at the same time, it fits the lyrics well. Most of us who listened to the leak would’ve thought the kick drum clips would still be there once actually released- especially since  management/the band delayed due to the “quality”.
 

In retrospect, its clear they were talking about the quality of the vinyl pressings rather than the mixes. Like Hardskool, I love what’s there conceptually, it’s just the minor audio nuances that take me out of it 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Appetitefordiscussion

[Mikey Whipwreck]

22 hours ago, Flayer said:

I think the mix on CD is generally beautiful but it’s lacking in muscle. Bass is almost inaudible on a majority of the songs. I believe songs like Shackler’s, Riad, Scraped, and Sorry would have benefited from having a little more heft behind them.

It is certainly leagues above the production on any of the newer singles, which have all felt varying degrees of sloppy and careless (Perhaps being the least in that regard, and The General the worst).

Agreed. The drums and bass are too low in the mix for my tastes in certain places and they could have cranked the guitar overdubs up in places like Better verses  and Sorry chorus. Bass should be cranked up on CD and Riad like it is in the Village versions. But personal preference aside it's evident that a ton of care was taken on every track. Just a fraction of that effort could have seriously improved Hard School and The General. 

[kiwiguns]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:04 AM, Flayer said:

I like Eye On You. Bite me. I’ve shown it to several other people who did.

There’s no going downhill from what they did to The General, short of another release with the exact same issue.

You go to a restaurant, you order a meal, the steak arrives and it’s not the exact temperature you prefer, or the flavor isn’t to your liking, or the portions are skimpy, or you sat around waiting for your food to arrive for over an hour. Those are your complaints about any of these other songs.

The General is when your food is served with bits of plastic visibly sticking out of it, and the cook on the line, the kitchen’s head chef, and your waiter all failed to notice before passing it on to you.

The engineers, the band, the label, it’s an embarrassment for all of them, and it’s simply inexcusable. How am I supposed to respect an artist who doesn’t respect their own art?

Did you ever think that in this case the record label and the artist aren't on the same page or in agreement. 

It's highly possible the record label pulled the, "you are contractually obligated" card and the artist wasn't in agreement nor wanted to cooperate for what ever reason. 

Its possible the artist simply did what was required, with minimal effort as the artist wasn't going to see any financial benefits  compared to the record label. 

Artists don't make money via selling records or songs in today's music industry.

The record labels aren't the power brokers in the music industry anymore. That power ended when people stopped buying records.. 

Live Nation, Danny Wimmer and other tour promoters are the music industry power brokers today. 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by kiwiguns

[colonizedmind]

Caram or Axl - sounds like a lost South Park Episode! 

[rumandraisin]

With the care that went in to CD and taking in to account everything Axl went through for that album to even be released I can sort of understand his couldn't care less attitude with these releases.

The copy and pasted "heys" on Hard Skool

The 2 seconds of Robin on Perhaps. 

Clipping on General. 

There is probably a "the fans should be grateful" attitude going on combined with the band too scared to say anything to Axl. 

Edited January 14 by rumandraisin

[DSTK]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:18 PM, AxlRQ93 said:

who do you blame for the sound issues with the general and hs also sounding bad?

Caram, Axl is just the bands front man...yes he holds rights for the name etc

But recording & final mix stuff, Caram all day

[DSTK]

On 12/14/2023 at 6:26 PM, kiwiguns said:

Artists don't make money via selling records or songs in today's music industry.

 

 

Correct, unless you're taylor swift & re record the lot so 12 yeah olds can buy the lot again as she holds the rights now not a label. 

Money is in touring , GNR showed us this since 2001 really 

[Voodoochild]

20 hours ago, DSTK said:

Caram, Axl is just the bands front man...yes he holds rights for the name etc

But recording & final mix stuff, Caram all day

Axl produced the songs too, and he has decision power on it. He wasn't just standing there and trusting blindly that the final product would be good, he (and presumably Slash and Duff) could reject Caram's work just like they rejected the Illusions remixes.

[DSTK]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:05 PM, Voodoochild said:

Axl produced the songs too, and he has decision power on it. He wasn't just standing there and trusting blindly that the final product would be good, he (and presumably Slash and Duff) could reject Caram's work just like they rejected the Illusions remixes.

I get what you're saying but they're just band members, though one has a hell of a load of power compared to the rest. Carams only job is to get that right ...he has one job, if you're no good at it ,I bet there's a lot who'd jump at the chance