New Sean Beavan Interview Talking Chinese Democracy, Axl, GNR, NIN & More!

[Order of Nine]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Guess whose picture tops the following history of numetal,

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/may/09/20-years-nu-metal-rap-rock-korn-kerrang

Featuring interviews with one James Munky Shaffer who seems accepting of his bands role in nu-metal,

Korn were nu-metal. 

Hahahahaha

My point exactly!

Nu metal was an industry label. Of course they rolled with it to sell some records.

Now explain to me how slap bass fits into the metal genre and not having a double kick pedal fits into the equation of "metal". 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Order of Nine said:

Hahahahaha

My point exactly!

Nu metal was an industry label. Of course they rolled with it to sell some records.

Now explain to me how slap bass fits into the metal genre and not having a double kick pedal fits into the equation of "metal". 

Slap bass fits into the nu-metal genre, a sub genre of metal. A mainstream metal band would not possess slap bass, but a nu-metal band would. Korn actually possess all the hallmarks of nu-metal,

- down-tuned guitars

- miminisical riffs

- absent or minimalistic/grungy guitar solos

- dissonance 

- rap and hip-hop influences

- prozac generation lyrical content

- piercings and sports apparel such as tracksuit bottoms

 

[Order of Nine]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Slap bass fits into the nu-metal genre, a sub genre of metal. A mainstream metal band would not possess slap bass, but a nu-metal band would. Korn actually possess all the hallmarks of nu-metal,

- down-tuned guitars

- miminisical riffs

- absent or minimalistic/grungy guitar solos

- dissonance 

- rap and hip-hop influences

- prozac generation lyrical content

- piercings and sports apparel such as tracksuit bottoms

 

Wow.

Most of what your saying had NOTHING to do with music.

So nobody ever tuned down before?

And "dissonance" had never been used in any other genre before?

"What happened is metal fans embraced us and we play in the metal scene. But as for us being a metal band, I don't see it. We're more of a funk band, like groove-metal, than anything. I remember back in the mid-'90s, we were all like, "We're not a metal band, we're not a metal band." And there's all this nu-metal shit, too. Everyone misunderstood us. But I don't care anymore.

 

 

[Silent Jay]

Korn is a 60s influenced surf rock band.

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

Wow.

Most of what your saying had NOTHING to do with music.

So nobody ever tuned down before?

And "dissonance" had never been used in any other genre before?

"What happened is metal fans embraced us and we play in the metal scene. But as for us being a metal band, I don't see it. We're more of a funk band, like groove-metal, than anything. I remember back in the mid-'90s, we were all like, "We're not a metal band, we're not a metal band." And there's all this nu-metal shit, too. Everyone misunderstood us. But I don't care anymore.

 

 

6/7 of the above points have actually got something to do with the music.

They can say what they what. I would be disassociating myself from the genre these days if I was them also. Korn are as nu-metal as one can fathom. No band is as numetal as they were. They were probably the actual creators of numetal. But if you want to regard them as belonging to another genre, then you are entitled to do so? 

Edited February 24, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Korn are nu-metal. They did a co-headlining tour with Limp Bizkit at the end of 2016 in the U.K. 

So much for them wanting to distance themselves from the nu-metal label 

[Silent Jay]

Korn pretty much keep the nu-metal genre alive these days.

[Order of Nine]

13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

6/7 of the above points have actually got something to do with the music.

They can say what they what. I would be disassociating myself from the genre these days if I was them also. Korn are as nu-metal as one can fathom. No band is as numetal as they were. They were probably the actual creators of numetal. But if you want to regard them as belonging to another genre, then you are entitled to do so? 

I actually hate this band... I think Korn is corny.

But they have many more elements that have nothing to do with metal, the few that have something to do with metal are completely diluted. No other sub genres of metal exist within any of thier music. The founders of this "nu metal" genre, whom btw never called themselves that were Social Justice, and Downset, and Biohazard. 

Nu metal was and is a word, a lable to market alot of bands in the industry that we're not traditional or true to what metal was and is. Which on its own was a natural progression when musicians are exposed to different influences and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are countless specifics that they don't do within that style and many more they do in other styles. They did the same trick with "glam metal" can anyone play me a "glam metal" scale, chord, or musical passage that is specific to "glam metal" NO!!! But you can surely dress like a glam metal band just like your dressing points on "nu metal" we're pointed out.. it's a style that got watered down, and dumbed down by the industry to sell some records. 

A distorted down tuned guitar makes them metal? 

How about explaining the slap bass and lack of double kick pedal? And how that makes them metal.

[bucketfoot]

4 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

Oh look the guy from Korn saying they aren't metal... Maybe because they aren't and have zero respect from the metal community.

http://loudwire.com/korn-jonathan-davis-were-not-a-metal-band/

"We're not a metal band". Yeah, yeah Jonathan, of course you're not.

[Order of Nine]

Bucketfoot, diesel Daisy, what metal do you to? 

Bucketfoot, diesel Daisy, what metal do you to? 

[Eric Cantona]

[marlingrl03]

[bucketfoot]

2 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

And the fact that there is a mix of multiple styles within thier music even if you like it or not is undeniable.

Yes, yes, I'm sure they have a lot of influences as all bands do and indeed, there are a few different styles which make up their sound but whether you like it or not, they are undoubtedly nu metal, a sub genre of metal. The End.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

Wow, this thread.  

My first post for a little while, so first of all, thank you SO much Sid for brining this podcast to us.  As a CD enthusiast, I can't tell you how grateful I am. I was hanging off Sean's every word.  He seems like a great guy and I can see how he and Axl would have been a good creative match.

Can’t believe people have spent most of this thread debating the fairly mundane topic of whether or not CD sounds anything like NIN when you could be discussing all the fascinating points Sean Beavan talked about regarding the making of CD: 

- Axl’s general personality.  Sean’s dad saying Axl is a ’solid guy’ - wow!  Sean looking back on the working experience with Axl fondly...I'm sure there were times when he was frustrated by him too, but it seems on the whole, the experience was a good one but for the fact the album wasn't being released and, like any normal person, Sean just wanted to create and release a project.  

- Axl's desire to create a family atmosphere.  Did this hinder Axl’s ability to treat the album like a job and get on with it?  Was he too close to everyone to be efficient?  This is a worthy discussion point.  Sean himself seemed to hint that the label eventually felt he and Axl were no longer really colleagues, but friends, and this wasn't conducive to getting the job done.
- Sean's common interests with Axl not to mention their shared method for chopping up songs and piecing them together in a different way

- The fact they blazed through 35 songs in about a month
- Axl saying yes to Oh My God without doubt or indecision - what happened to that attitude Axl?
- the vocals on the final product being the 99 vocals and Sean going on to say that when the album got ‘bogged down’ during his time it was over vocals - what can we read into that?  I wonder if one of the main reasons why CD was so incredibly delayed was due to Axl's insecurity over his vocals?
- Axl playing quite a lot of guitar and that he’d sometimes come out with some pretty good ideas!  
- The label being fairly ‘hands off’ in the beginning - this is something we’ve all wondered about…
- Sean having to eventually mediate between label and Axl and how awkward this must have been given that Sean felt loyal to the artist - this is also something we’ve wondered about…

There's so much more.  Such an interesting and informative interview.  This thread should be 10 pages long talking about all the things we learned/had confirmed/questions that still remain, etc. 

Anyway, thanks again Sid.  Great questions asked, too! 

[RussTCB]

12 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Wow, this thread.  

My first post for a little while, so first of all, thank you SO much Sid for brining this podcast to us.  As a CD enthusiast, I can't tell you how grateful I am. I was hanging off Sean's every word.  He seems like a great guy and I can see how he and Axl would have been a good creative match.

Can’t believe people have spent most of this thread debating the fairly mundane topic of whether or not CD sounds anything like NIN when you could be discussing all the fascinating points Sean Beavan talked about regarding the making of CD: 

- Axl’s general personality.  Sean’s dad saying Axl is a ’solid guy’ - wow!  Sean looking back on the working experience with Axl fondly...I'm sure there were times when he was frustrated by him too, but it seems on the whole, the experience was a good one but for the fact the album wasn't being released and, like any normal person, Sean just wanted to create and release a project.  

- Axl's desire to create a family atmosphere.  Did this hinder Axl’s ability to treat the album like a job and get on with it?  Was he too close to everyone to be efficient?  This is a worthy discussion point.  Sean himself seemed to hint that the label eventually felt he and Axl were no longer really colleagues, but friends, and this wasn't conducive to getting the job done.
- Sean's common interests with Axl not to mention their shared method for chopping up songs and piecing them together in a different way

- The fact they blazed through 35 songs in about a month
- Axl saying yes to Oh My God without doubt or indecision - what happened to that attitude Axl?
- the vocals on the final product being the 99 vocals and Sean going on to say that when the album got ‘bogged down’ during his time it was over vocals - what can we read into that?  I wonder if one of the main reasons why CD was so incredibly delayed was due to Axl's insecurity over his vocals?
- Axl playing quite a lot of guitar and that he’d sometimes come out with some pretty good ideas!  
- The label being fairly ‘hands off’ in the beginning - this is something we’ve all wondered about…
- Sean having to eventually mediate between label and Axl and how awkward this must have been given that Sean felt loyal to the artist - this is also something we’ve wondered about…

There's so much more.  Such an interesting and informative interview.  This thread should be 10 pages long talking about all the things we learned/had confirmed/questions that still remain, etc. 

Anyway, thanks again Sid.  Great questions asked, too! 

GREAT post and thanks for bringing things back on track!

To everyone else arguing if it's a solo album or not, if it sounds like nin or whatever in the hell else that's off topic; please drop it. Either post on topic as exampled here, or take your posts to a different thread.

Thanks!

[RONIN]

8 hours ago, soon said:

Thanks Blackstar.  @RONINWanted to draw your attention incase you missed this post.  

What do you two make of that comment?

I just heard that bit about Slash. Honestly - hard to say really. I think he might be mistaken about Slash given the general timeline of events:

"To tell you the truth, none of the people in Axl's camp believed I was really gone for the next couple of years. I was kind of taken aback by their deep sense of denial: I never behaved as if I intended to return, but that didn't matter to them." (Slash, autobiography)

Axl called Robin no later than mid-January, as he was already playing with the band when Moby came aboard. From 01/29/97 onwards, Cirque du Soleil's Quidam was based in Orange County, between their two stays in Santa Monica, enabling Robin to divide his time between GNR and the circus.

"At that time Axl was no longer playing with Slash but the rest of the original guys were still together. ... He invited me to play with he and the rest of the Guns N' Roses guys at the studio space they were kind of housed in. It was a welcomed opportunity just to play that one day. ... We played Guns songs and some cover songs." (Robin, Ultimate Guitar, 01/17/14)

"I told Axl to see him and he said 'That's our guitar player,'" says Sorum. "I said, 'Bring in Robin to play alongside Slash,' but Axl said, 'I want him to play lead.'" (Spin, 07/99)

"The lead guitar spot remains open and Slash's return is not out of the question. However, according to our source, the guitarist and Rose haven't spoken at all this year." (Addicted to Noise, 03/19/97)

"April of '[97], right after Matt Sorum left the band... I got a call from those guys about going down and jamming... Duff was still in it... They had already gotten Robin Finck... [Axl] is super well-listened. He was always a big Nails fan... They wanted the option of experimenting with electronics... My role was supposed to be drumming and programming." (Chris Vrenna, Spin, 07/99)

On May Day '98, Geffen Records officially acknowledged the departure of Slash and Duff from GNR.

"Since 1992, [GNR and Geffen Records] have executed various amendments to the Recording Agreement, including most notably, two amendments dated as of May 1, 1998.

One of these amendments [...] confirmed Slash's and Duff's departure from the band and their status as "Leaving Members" under the 1992 Recording Agreement, thereby relieving them of charges against their royalty accounts for the enormous recording costs and other expenses being incurred by Axl Rose in connection with the recording of the new Guns N' Roses studio album. Slash and Duff, like Stradlin and Adler before them, retained a royalty interest in masters created under the Recording Agreement prior to their departure from the band.

In the other May 1, 1998 amendment, [...] Axl Rose agreed, among other things, to deliver that new studio LP (which was even then long overdue under the Recording Agreement) no later than March 1, 1999 and received a substantial advance from Geffen in return." (Greatest Hits lawsuit document)

So - if Slash was still in the mix in '97 - Sorum, Vrenna and Duff are not really confirming his presence in any interviews during that time. Sorum's quote indicates that Axl had basically moved on even within a few months of Slash's resignation. Duff mentions in his book iirc that he was trying to serve as a bridge between Axl and Slash through most of '97 and he bailed when it looked hopeless.  There's this quote from Duff though in a magazine ~01/97:

Despite the turmoil, reports of Guns N Roses’ demise have been greatly exaggerated, according to Duff “We’re back in,” he announces “We’re writing new stuff, and we’re going to make a record and tour next summer’ The two years apart actually took the edges off some of the issues, and we’ve handled the other issues flat out - maybe not in the best way, but they were handled. Now the amount of tension in the band is perfect for creating what we do.”

http://www.a-4-d.com/t629-1997-01-dd-interview-with-duff#1292

I assume this interview was probably done in late '96 though when Slash was still in the band...

Edited February 25, 2018 by RONIN

[RONIN]

10 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Beavan said that, with the exception of giving Oh My God for the End Of Days movie, Axl said "no" to everything the label told him to do and that he, as a producer, is always with the artist and not with the label.

My understanding from the interview is that Axl would want to continue with Beavan, but the label wanted an older and more opinionated producer who could push Axl. By that point that was convenient for Beavan too (a "mutual thing", as he said) because he wanted to put a record out and Axl was revisiting the material and having the newcomers re-record the parts that were already recorded by the ones who had left.

Where do you stand on the rumors of Beavan's album being on the verge of completion or potentially even being mastered before Geffen allegedly rejected the album? As Ludurigan and I were saying - it seems like Beavan is all but confirming that this probably wasn't the case at all because they were getting bogged down in vocals and things weren't getting done fast enough for Sean after the band had hammered out 35 songs in studio. But then he says that nearly all the vocals on CD are from those '99 sessions. If that's the case, it would mean that Chinese Democracy in some rough form was ready to roll by late '99/early 2000 no? So what was stopping this Beavan album from getting released? Jimmy Iovine thinking it wasn't good enough? Finck leaving?

There's a missing piece of the puzzle here. They had a stable band through most of '99/2000. If you read through Finck's interviews from 99/2000, he sounds fed up like nothing was getting done and there were no vocals. It's very odd really. If they had enough vocals for a single album of material which Beavan seems to be confirming, what was the hold up here? Why would Finck be frustrated enough to quit when they were so close to the end? It seems like a combination of Axl shenanigans and an indecisive Geffen half in/out as far as releasing an album without Slash. I have a feeling both Axl and Geffen may have choked on releasing this Beavan album and that *may* have been the clincher for why Finck and Beavan bailed. 

on Axl/whether he's heard CD: No one did. I know he recorded a couple of songs [over a period of] several years, until someone from the company came in and thought they sucked.  (November 2004, Steven Adler)

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/interviews/steven_adler_axl_is_ahole.html

I'm assuming Adler is referring to Bob Ezrin here...

[RONIN]

9 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

- Axl's desire to create a family atmosphere.  Did this hinder Axl’s ability to treat the album like a job and get on with it?  Was he too close to everyone to be efficient?  This is a worthy discussion point.  Sean himself seemed to hint that the label eventually felt he and Axl were no longer really colleagues, but friends, and this wasn't conducive to getting the job done.

In short? Yes.

He had just lost his entire GnR family: Izzy, Duff, Slash, and Mike Clink. Axl's mother died in 95 iirc. He was being ridiculed mercilessly by the press and his peers who he desperately wanted approval from. The fans were turning against him. The guy was feeling completely abandoned. I think he just retreated inwards and became even tighter with the remaining people in his inner circle.

Add to that his profligate nature, a record company that was trying to appease him by throwing millions as an advance on the next album - and the fact he had achieved the pinnacle of success by that point - where was there left to go? He may have had grand ambitions for the next album and ideas of conquering the world musically (I think Slash mentions some of this stuff in his book) but there wasn't a strong enough drive from him to take action there. He was content to circle the wagons and go into hibernation. When he felt the need to make music, he could go into the studio and tinker for a bit to satisfy the need to be stay "busy" (even if he wasn't getting anything done really). No more Slash, Duff, Matt, or Izzy to bug him to release stuff or get a tour together. No more Alan Niven to pressure him to tour or complete an album. 

He had bought the best band money could buy - they were at his disposal whenever he wanted to play and Geffen was indulging every whim - where is the motivation to complete anything with that kind of situation where there is no one to hold you accountable including your own bandmates and record company? He was surrounded by yes-men. Anyone who told him what was really going on was kicked out of the circle. Any producer that actually wanted to get things going like Youth were booted off the project.

I really think he was depressed and burned out from the whirlwind of 87-93. 94-96 were bad years for him personally with the lawsuits and his relationships with Duff, Slash, and Izzy reaching an all-time low. Maybe he just wanted to live a little and enjoy life. In retrospect, the music appears to have been a secondary priority at that point. Axl post '94 seems like a semi-retired musician really. 

"Nothing else had worked, so Geffen figured they'd send me in to talk to Axl after I moved to Los Angeles. [...] No expense was spared; they were the biggest band in the history of the label and, even though everyone except Axl was gone, Geffen Records lived and breathed for another GNR album. [...] We desperately wanted the new album for Christmas 1998 and I had a year to get it finished." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)

"He had some brilliant ideas, but they really were just sketches. He really wanted to leave the past behind and make a hugely ambitious album, like Led Zeppelin's Physical Grafitti crossed with Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon." (Youth, The Times, 03/18/05)

"'They sold millions of records in a few years,' says the producer. 'He had a big crew of people in the studio... and I think that kind of pressure chokes creativity.'" (Youth, Spin, 07/99)

"Geffen also offered [Youth] extra royalties if the recording came in before [03/01/99]." (New York Times, 03/06/05)

"When Youth ushered Rose back into the studio, progress ceased: So I said, 'Next time I come over I want to record the songs', and he said, 'You're pushing me too fast.' I had to pull out." (Q Magazine, 05/01)

"Axl was deeply unhappy. I sensed he was clinically depressed because he only worked from 9pm to 9am. He was living a hermit lifestyle. In the end, he told me he wasn't ready. He was trying to get to some spiritual level that would make him happy." (Youth, The Times, 03/18/05)

 

Quote

- Axl saying yes to Oh My God without doubt or indecision - what happened to that attitude Axl?

Maybe. Could have been a way to throw a bone to Geffen so that they would go back to leaving him alone. Or he could have been doing a favor for Arnold. If Axl was willing to put out an unfinished demo, there was probably a good practical reason for it. As we know, Axl Rose never does anything he does not want to do. 

Quote

- the vocals on the final product being the 99 vocals and Sean going on to say that when the album got ‘bogged down’ during his time it was over vocals - what can we read into that?  I wonder if one of the main reasons why CD was so incredibly delayed was due to Axl's insecurity over his vocals?

It's always been like that though.

From Adler's book on the infamous Chicago '89 sessions for Illusions:

"Seven weeks and five days later, Axl finally arrived. We had two days left in the studio and were anxious to show him all of the new material. He sat there like we were putting him through some kind of torture. Plain and simple, Axl wasn’t interested in our material! He just wanted to record a new song he had been working on called “November Rain.” He sat at the grand piano in the studio and played it for us. I thought to myself, “That’s nice, but that’s it?” He had only like two verses written. Duff, Slash, and I had thirty-three songs in the can, ready to go, but Axl wouldn’t give them the time of day. "

Izzy finished basic tracks on Illusions 2 years before the album came out. They had to wait over a year for vocals and even then Illusions had to be forced out of his hands by Slash and Geffen. As per Slash/Duff, there are no vocals at all for the 94-96 songs they completed. Then there's this:

"[Youth] had "four or five" spells working with Rose in [1998]. [...] 'I went to his house and we started writing songs, strumming guitars in the kitchen', says Youth. 'That was a major breakthrough because it got him singing again which he hadn't done for a long time.' (Q Magazine, 05/01)

"He hadn't been singing for around 18 months. I think the record had turned into a real labour. He was stuck and didn't know how to proceed, so he was avoiding it." (Youth, The Times, 03/18/05)

According to Geffen publicist Bryn Bridenthal, Rose's motivation to roll up his sleeves and grind out new music may be stronger than ever now because he hopes to revisit the nation's arenas and stadiums with new material next summer." (Rolling Stone, 11/14/98)

*As per Beavan, vocals were bogged down to the point he had to leave. But the final Chinese Democracy album we got in 2008 has the lionshare of vocals from '99 indicating that there was probably an album worth of songs near completion before something made Finck not renew his contract and the subsequent derailing of the Beavan album. I can't imagine Sean Beavan leaving that project after putting in 2 years of work unless it looked hopelessly stuck in quagmire. 

Finck:

"We wrote and rehearsed and argued about, and laboriously recorded, dozens of songs in L.A. for several years," Finck said. "Of those songs, two fistfuls are musically finished. Axl is, as far as I know, completing those songs sometime but my work there was done."

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2504-2000-04-xx-intervew-with-robin-in-the-providence-journal

"Yeah," Finck chuckles. "It was great for a while, but then it became terribly frustrating not seeing anything completed because no lyrics were finished." Adding to the frustration was that Finck had passed on the chance to work with Trent Reznor on NIN's latest, The Fragile, in order to do the Rose sessions.

"It's one of the reasons I'm not there anymore. No one song was ever completed — and I was there for two and a half years."

But even after working endlessly on the GN'R album, Finck is unable to speculate on how it's going to turn out.

"I'd helped write and arrange and recorded enough songs for several records," he says. "Honestly, we recorded so many different song ideas and completed so many different types of songs — from quiet, very simple traditional piano songs to 16 stereo tracks of keyboard blur and everything in between."

But, he notes, "most of the stronger songs that ended up on A-lists when I was there were huge rock songs, built for the masses, really guitar-driven."

Finck has heard little since then from Rose, who is the only remaining member of the Guns N' Roses lineup after buying the rights to the name from former guitarist Slash.

"When he finishes the lyrics, I assume [the songs] are going to be released," Finck says. "I hope they turn out great. There's a lot of potential there."

http://www.a-4-d.com/t1671-2000-05-dd-interview-with-robin

An interesting factoid to note. There may have been a completed album in the can even prior to Beavan entering the project (Beavan mentions that he did additional work on a few of these Youth tracks in the interview):

Not to mention he had a due date on the album set for 03/01/99. A&R man James Barber saw his one-year working relationship with the band come to an end without an album, although he maintains one existed by then - even if there'd virtually been no producer on the material prior to inclusion of Beavan late into the year.

"The Robin Finck/Josh Freese/Tommy Stinson/Billy Howerdel/Dizzy Reed version of the album that existed in 1998 was pretty incredible. It still sounded like GNR but there were elements of Zeppelin, Nine Inch Nails and Pink Floyd mixed in." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)

"The record just needed a lead vocal and a mix. [...] If Axl had recorded vocals, it would have been an absolutely contemporary record in 1999." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)

Quote

- Axl playing quite a lot of guitar and that he’d sometimes come out with some pretty good ideas!  

Possibly. I'd wager it's probably Beavan being diplomatic as he was when he was explaining why he left GnR (without directly blaming Axl's work ethic). Imagine how pointless that whole scenario must have seemed to Duff and Slash - Axl learning guitar instead of laying down vocals while the band was going down in flames. Beavan mentions Axl potentially wanting to learn guitar so he wouldn't have to depend on others. Interesting. More proof that he was trying to evolve his process to that of an auteur like Prince who plays a lot of his own instruments on his records and MJ who is maniacally precise and OCD about the sounds he creates on his albums. CD is essentially Axl's journey into becoming a music producer. 

Quote

- The label being fairly ‘hands off’ in the beginning - this is something we’ve all wondered about…

Probably because they figured Axl Rose does not like to be micromanaged since he is a control freak - the less they meddled in his business, maybe their star would be happy and reward them with good behavior (complete an album). And he is/was the biggest rockstar in the world that was coming off two of the biggest albums of all time - an extremely strong track-record w/ plenty of credibility. They probably had some measure of trust and faith in Axl that he would keep his word and stick to the timeline they requested for the album's release. The trust eroded and panic set in shortly thereafter when their star has nothing to show despite spending millions.

"'In 1998 and 1999 you start getting a little bit nervous,' Mr. Rosenblatt, the executive who led [Geffen Records] after David Geffen's departure, said delicately. 'Edgar Bronfman [CEO of parent company Seagram] picks up the phone more than once. He wanted to know what was going on. You unfortunately have got to give him the answer, you don't know. Because you don't.'" (New York Times, 03/06/05) 

Quote

- Sean having to eventually mediate between label and Axl and how awkward this must have been given that Sean felt loyal to the artist - this is also something we’ve wondered about…

Agreed. It shows you how useless Doug Goldstein was as a manager during that time period and their desperate need for an effective A&R person like Tom Zutaut.

This is probably where the "Sean and Axl seem like buddies - maybe we need a more old school producer" ideas started to percolate with Geffen execs.

A great follow-up interview to this would be w/ Youth. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by RONIN

[SlashisGOD]

I'm convinced that if he could do it, Axl would have played all instruments on CD.

The part about the vocals is interesting, especially when you compare the timelines of UYI and CD. The Illusions would have been out in 89/90 had Axl not kept holding it up due to concerns over his vocals. Perhaps if Slash had been there, CD would have been out many years before it finally did. 

[RONIN]

6 hours ago, SlashisGOD said:

I'm convinced that if he could do it, Axl would have played all instruments on CD.

The part about the vocals is interesting, especially when you compare the timelines of UYI and CD. The Illusions would have been out in 89/90 had Axl not kept holding it up due to concerns over his vocals. Perhaps if Slash had been there, CD would have been out many years before it finally did. 

Agreed. He was becoming OCD about the whole thing. His whole process is the exact opposite of how Slash, Duff, and Izzy like to make music. Izzy found UYI's development process intolerable. 

I think if Niven had been in the picture, GnR would have had an album out in '95. Without Niven, Slash really had no muscle to light a fire under Axl's ass. Once Axl left the partnership in '95, whatever remaining leverage Slash and Duff had was gone. I don't think anyone could have helped get that record out faster. They got close when Beavan and Zutaut were involved though.

Edited February 25, 2018 by RONIN

[Blackstar]

@MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle thank you for summing it up for all of us. It's true that the thread had gotten carried away in the usual heated arguments isolating and going around bits of the interview or focusing on subjects that weren't even discussed.

10 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

...I'm sure there were times when he was frustrated by him too, but it seems on the whole, the experience was a good one but for the fact the album wasn't being released and, like any normal person, Sean just wanted to create and release a project.  

- Axl's desire to create a family atmosphere.  Did this hinder Axl’s ability to treat the album like a job and get on with it?  Was he too close to everyone to be efficient?  This is a worthy discussion point.  Sean himself seemed to hint that the label eventually felt he and Axl were no longer really colleagues, but friends, and this wasn't conducive to getting the job done.
...
- the vocals on the final product being the 99 vocals and Sean going on to say that when the album got ‘bogged down’ during his time it was over vocals - what can we read into that?  I wonder if one of the main reasons why CD was so incredibly delayed was due to Axl's insecurity over his vocals?
...
- The label being fairly ‘hands off’ in the beginning - this is something we’ve all wondered about…
- Sean having to eventually mediate between label and Axl and how awkward this must have been given that Sean felt loyal to the artist - this is also something we’ve wondered about…

7 hours ago, RONIN said:

Where do you stand on the rumors of Beavan's album being on the verge of completion or potentially even being mastered before Geffen allegedly rejected the album? As Ludurigan and I were saying - it seems like Beavan is all but confirming that this probably wasn't the case at all because they were getting bogged down in vocals and things weren't getting done fast enough for Sean after the band had hammered out 35 songs in studio. But then he says that nearly all the vocals on CD are from those '99 sessions. If that's the case, it would mean that Chinese Democracy in some rough form was ready to roll by late '99/early 2000 no? So what was stopping this Beavan album from getting released? Jimmy Iovine thinking it wasn't good enough? Finck leaving?

There's a missing piece of the puzzle here. They had a stable band through most of '99/2000. If you read through Finck's interviews from 99/2000, he sounds fed up like nothing was getting done and there were no vocals. It's very odd really. If they had enough vocals for a single album of material which Beavan seems to be confirming, what was the hold up here? Why would Finck be frustrated enough to quit when they were so close to the end? It seems like a combination of Axl shenanigans and an indecisive Geffen half in/out as far as releasing an album without Slash. I have a feeling both Axl and Geffen may have choked on releasing this Beavan album and that *may* have been the clincher for why Finck and Beavan bailed. 

Beavan said that:

A. All of the songs that ended up on CD, except for one, were among the about 35 songs he had worked on.

B. The vocals on CD are the ones recorded during his time.

The way I understand it, it doesn't necessarily mean that all the songs in A. were also B., i.e. completed songs with vocals and everything.

He also said that Axl credited him on the liner notes for the songs with vocals he had edited. I looked in the booklet and Beavan is credited for digital engineering on 8 songs (CD, SoD, TWAT, ITW, I.R.S., Riad, Madagascar and Prostitute) and only for arrangement on CITR. That probably means that the other 3-4 songs on CD hadn't had vocals yet when Beavan left.

In a 2008 interview though he had said that he felt the album was almost completed:

Antiquiet: Was there any sense that Chinese Democracy was nearing completion back then? 

Sean: I thought there was. (laughs) I think we worked on thirty-five songs or something. But the guy just continually creates, and as people changed into and out of the band, a lot of things got re-tracked. I’d love to see the record come out soon, but we’ll see. They say it was turned in.

http://antiquiet.com/interviews/2008/08/antiquiets-three-way-with-8mm/

It's possible that there were other completed songs with vocals intended for the initial album which didn't make CD (for example, one of them could have been "Checkmate" - I believe the clip with vocal that has leaked is legit?) and were replaced with others at a later stage. The songs Beavan isn't credited for are mostly the Buckethead ones (Shackler's, Sorry, Scraped); it makes sense that those weren't completed when Beavan left and maybe one of them was the one he didn't work on at all.

Things really point out that by 2000 there was material ready for at least an album - or it was close to completion. There are other sources confirming it; Brian May for example; also, according to Bob Ezrin, Axl thought that the album was ready.

Axl must have started recording vocals in mid to late '99 and Finck had left by that time. From Finck's and Howerdel's interviews it seems that Axl couldn't decide which songs he wanted, he was revisiting the songs and/or had the band rework them; thus, he delayed to write lyrics and record vocals. Those conditions, maybe in addition to Axl focusing on re-recording AFD in '99, probably led Finck, who was there since '97, to leave.

The label was "discrete" at first, but Axl was in bad shape mentally and emotionally when Moby and Youth were on board. Then, when he started taking of with Beavan, the label, after the merging with Interscope, decided to supervise the project more closely. Beavan implied that there were disagreements with Axl. It seems that the label on one hand wanted the album to be finished, but on the other wasn't thrilled with the material -or some of it- Axl intended to put on the album and wanted changes (I think Tommy has also alluded to that); Beavan didn't help them on that regard as he was on Axl's side, so they were looking to get someone else.

Axl, on his part, although he was rejecting the label's recommendations, was, at the same time, insecure. Beavan implied that too; Axl wanted it to be his thing, his vision, but he also felt the burden of being on his own. Axl is insecure anyway, and it's no wonder that he would have been even more in that situation. And probably he wanted to write with Buckethead and have him lay parts on the songs, thinking that he could come up with something better; and that would take some more time.

7 hours ago, RONIN said:

on Axl/whether he's heard CD: No one did. I know he recorded a couple of songs [over a period of] several years, until someone from the company came in and thought they sucked.  (November 2004, Steven Adler)

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/interviews/steven_adler_axl_is_ahole.html

I'm assuming Adler is referring to Bob Ezrin here...

Yeah, that's what I think too. He couldn't know details.

6 hours ago, RONIN said:

Beavan mentions Axl potentially wanting to learn guitar so he wouldn't have to depend on others. Interesting. More proof that he was trying to evolve his process to that of an auteur like Prince who plays a lot of his own instruments on his records and MJ who is maniacally precise and OCD about the sounds he creates on his albums. CD is essentially Axl's journey into becoming a music producer. 

Yeah, from what Beavan said, Axl didn't intend to be a guitarist for the band or perform, but he wanted to be able to write on guitar on his own and not to be dependent on a guitarist to get the ideas he had. Asked about how he wrote songs in a 1989 interview:

- Do you use an instrument to write songs or do you rely on the band to write the music?

Axl: No, I don't rely on the band to come up with the music. I sometimes write with the guitar - I don't play guitar very well - or I write with the piano or a friend. When I sit down with a guitarist, we usually work hand in hand. He'll suggest ideas for my melodies and I'll suggest ideas for the guitar parts and this and that. It all kind of flows together. [Axl interview, Kerrang, June 1989]

He could do that when there were people he had chemistry with: Izzy, Slash, and also West Arkeen. Now he didn't have that (and Slash was out with Snakepit in '95 and Axl wanted to write songs - it's another matter that he wasn't in emotional shape to do it).

There is this story in Raz Cue's book from the time Axl was in L.A. Guns about the chemistry he had with Izzy and didn't have with Tracii Guns: Axl had a melody and an idea for a song, but Tracii didn't get it and played an irrelevant riff in a different key and tempo. In the end, Axl invited Izzy at the studio to show Tracii what he meant:

About two and a half seconds after Izzy plugged in, their musical communication was clear and evident. Axl sang a melody, and then Izzy said, “Like this?” and got to strumming.  Axl perked up with a happy smile and said, “Yeah that’s it. Now on that part…” It wasn’t long before the two had the whole tune worked out. In about ten minutes Izzy brought to life a song Axl spent fruitless hours trying to communicate to Tracii.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Blackstar

[soon]

15 hours ago, RONIN said:

I just heard that bit about Slash. Honestly - hard to say really. I think he might be mistaken about Slash given the general timeline of events:

"To tell you the truth, none of the people in Axl's camp believed I was really gone for the next couple of years. I was kind of taken aback by their deep sense of denial: I never behaved as if I intended to return, but that didn't matter to them." (Slash, autobiography)

Axl called Robin no later than mid-January, as he was already playing with the band when Moby came aboard. From 01/29/97 onwards, Cirque du Soleil's Quidam was based in Orange County, between their two stays in Santa Monica, enabling Robin to divide his time between GNR and the circus.

"At that time Axl was no longer playing with Slash but the rest of the original guys were still together. ... He invited me to play with he and the rest of the Guns N' Roses guys at the studio space they were kind of housed in. It was a welcomed opportunity just to play that one day. ... We played Guns songs and some cover songs." (Robin, Ultimate Guitar, 01/17/14)

"I told Axl to see him and he said 'That's our guitar player,'" says Sorum. "I said, 'Bring in Robin to play alongside Slash,' but Axl said, 'I want him to play lead.'" (Spin, 07/99)

"The lead guitar spot remains open and Slash's return is not out of the question. However, according to our source, the guitarist and Rose haven't spoken at all this year." (Addicted to Noise, 03/19/97)

"April of '[97], right after Matt Sorum left the band... I got a call from those guys about going down and jamming... Duff was still in it... They had already gotten Robin Finck... [Axl] is super well-listened. He was always a big Nails fan... They wanted the option of experimenting with electronics... My role was supposed to be drumming and programming." (Chris Vrenna, Spin, 07/99)

On May Day '98, Geffen Records officially acknowledged the departure of Slash and Duff from GNR.

"Since 1992, [GNR and Geffen Records] have executed various amendments to the Recording Agreement, including most notably, two amendments dated as of May 1, 1998.

One of these amendments [...] confirmed Slash's and Duff's departure from the band and their status as "Leaving Members" under the 1992 Recording Agreement, thereby relieving them of charges against their royalty accounts for the enormous recording costs and other expenses being incurred by Axl Rose in connection with the recording of the new Guns N' Roses studio album. Slash and Duff, like Stradlin and Adler before them, retained a royalty interest in masters created under the Recording Agreement prior to their departure from the band.

In the other May 1, 1998 amendment, [...] Axl Rose agreed, among other things, to deliver that new studio LP (which was even then long overdue under the Recording Agreement) no later than March 1, 1999 and received a substantial advance from Geffen in return." (Greatest Hits lawsuit document)

So - if Slash was still in the mix in '97 - Sorum, Vrenna and Duff are not really confirming his presence in any interviews during that time. Sorum's quote indicates that Axl had basically moved on even within a few months of Slash's resignation. Duff mentions in his book iirc that he was trying to serve as a bridge between Axl and Slash through most of '97 and he bailed when it looked hopeless.  There's this quote from Duff though in a magazine ~01/97:

Despite the turmoil, reports of Guns N Roses’ demise have been greatly exaggerated, according to Duff “We’re back in,” he announces “We’re writing new stuff, and we’re going to make a record and tour next summer’ The two years apart actually took the edges off some of the issues, and we’ve handled the other issues flat out - maybe not in the best way, but they were handled. Now the amount of tension in the band is perfect for creating what we do.”

http://www.a-4-d.com/t629-1997-01-dd-interview-with-duff#1292

I assume this interview was probably done in late '96 though when Slash was still in the band...

Thank for this.  I think that Beaven is likely mistaken.  Possibly they were working on Slash material and he misspoke based on that?  That said, I could definitely see how the camp wouldnt be talking about Slashs presence though, as the back and forth would be getting embarrassing and confusing by that point.

 

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

15 hours ago, RONIN said:

I really think he was depressed and burned out from the whirlwind of 87-93. 94-96 were bad years for him personally with the lawsuits and his relationships with Duff, Slash, and Izzy reaching an all-time low. Maybe he just wanted to live a little and enjoy life. In retrospect, the music appears to have been a secondary priority at that point. Axl post '94 seems like a semi-retired musician really. 

A great follow-up interview to this would be w/ Youth. 

Agreed. 

Added to that, Sean gave us that little bit more insight into Axl's general personality, which is so often contradictory.  You could tell from the way Sean spoke, and the stories he told and how he smiled and laughed throughout, that he is fond of Axl.  But in the end, Sean had to get out or he'd stagnate and his career would nosedive...like Axl's.  

I got the distinct impression from Sean's recount, that Axl is the type who you can't help but be drawn to, and you sorta fall for him and you form a bond, and then you can't say no to the guy.  And then all Axl is interested in doing is keeping hold of those close to him - holding on to those bonds.  If you can get away and still remain in his good books (which I think Sean did) then great.  But it's more likely Axl would cut you off once you've made the decision to leave his circle.  If this is how he is with producers, it's no wonder he felt so intensely betrayed when Slash left.  It makes his reconciliation with Slash all the more miraculous (although I suppose a growing need for a boost in income helped heal the wounds!).  

After listening to Sean, I've re-evaluated a couple of opinions I've always held and I'm now convinced that Axl had no intention of releasing CD until he had no choice, hence the long wait.  I think he liked the idea of setting up shop (the CD shop) and having his devoted employees (I don't think Axl would have thought of them as employees but family) and have them all working together towards a common goal i.e. helping Axl achieve his vision, which he was never going to achieve, not in a timely fashion anyway.  It's the process he was invested in, not the end game.  I realise @RONIN that you have said this all along and I always disagreed with you.  Well, now I gotta eat my words. 

I mean, I do still think there were other forces at play that made a difficult situation even more difficult.  But Axl is who he is.  It was interesting how Sean said Axl tried to reverse his body clock, tried to work during sensible daylight hours, but he just couldn't.  He's a different creative type.  It's in his nature to create and tinker and explore but not necessarily to do anything with it unless forced.  In the past, Slash and Duff and Izzy must have been the ones who'd cracked the whip to get anything out. 

The lesson seems to be, if you leave Axl to his own devices you will get nothing released.  You'll get a whole lotta exciting material, but nothing will see the light of day.  If, however, you manage him in the right way and set very clear boundaries and don't back down (as Angus has) he is capable of towing the line as he has shown on the NITL tour.  I remember a quote from Niven, I think, who said that Axl had never 'grown out of' his habits and ways, because he'd never been taught to.  He was always indulged (his own bandmates indulged him endlessly until they regretted it).  That said, it can't be easy trying to manage someone like Axl with his numerous, very real issues.  Especially when band members had their own issues.

Oh, and about the album being ready to roll in 2000?  Yeah...nope.  I don't think so anymore.  I used to.  I mean, Sean's memory might not be 100% reliable, but if CD had been actually read to master at that time, I'd think he'd remember that.  He didn't give the impression that CD was ready to go did he?  

The one thing that makes me still hopeful for new music is that Axl needs the income to maintain his lifestyle and that of others in his circle whom he looks after.  And he can't continue to do that on the old songs, not for much longer.  So with Slash and Duff back in the fold to crack the whip, we may yet see new GNR music. 

And yes, would love a follow up with Youth. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[bucketfoot]

2 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

The one thing that makes me still hopeful for new music is that Axl needs the income to maintain his lifestyle and that of others in his circle whom he looks after.  And he can't continue to do that on the old songs, not for much longer.

I think he's probably quite comfortable by now.

[Draguns]

4 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Agreed. 

Added to that, Sean gave us that little bit more insight into Axl's general personality, which is so often contradictory.  You could tell from the way Sean spoke, and the stories he told and how he smiled and laughed throughout, that he is fond of Axl.  But in the end, Sean had to get out or he'd stagnate and his career would nosedive...like Axl's.  

I got the distinct impression from Sean's recount, that Axl is the type who you can't help but be drawn to, and you sorta fall for him and you form a bond, and then you can't say no to the guy.  And then all Axl is interested in doing is keeping hold of those close to him - holding on to those bonds.  If you can get away and still remain in his good books (which I think Sean did) then great.  But it's more likely Axl would cut you off once you've made the decision to leave his circle.  If this is how he is with producers, it's no wonder he felt so intensely betrayed when Slash left.  It makes his reconciliation with Slash all the more miraculous (although I suppose a growing need for a boost in income helped heal the wounds!).  

After listening to Sean, I've re-evaluated a couple of opinions I've always held and I'm now convinced that Axl had no intention of releasing CD until he had no choice, hence the long wait.  I think he liked the idea of setting up shop (the CD shop) and having his devoted employees (I don't think Axl would have thought of them as employees but family) and have them all working together towards a common goal i.e. helping Axl achieve his vision, which he was never going to achieve, not in a timely fashion anyway.  It's the process he was invested in, not the end game.  I realise @RONIN that you have said this all along and I always disagreed with you.  Well, now I gotta eat my words. 

I mean, I do still think there were other forces at play that made a difficult situation even more difficult.  But Axl is who he is.  It was interesting how Sean said Axl tried to reverse his body clock, tried to work during sensible daylight hours, but he just couldn't.  He's a different creative type.  It's in his nature to create and tinker and explore but not necessarily to do anything with it unless forced.  In the past, Slash and Duff and Izzy must have been the ones who'd cracked the whip to get anything out. 

The lesson seems to be, if you leave Axl to his own devices you will get nothing released.  You'll get a whole lotta exciting material, but nothing will see the light of day.  If, however, you manage him in the right way and set very clear boundaries and don't back down (as Angus has) he is capable of towing the line as he has shown on the NITL tour.  I remember a quote from Niven, I think, who said that Axl had never 'grown out of' his habits and ways, because he'd never been taught to.  He was always indulged (his own bandmates indulged him endlessly until they regretted it).  That said, it can't be easy trying to manage someone like Axl with his numerous, very real issues.  Especially when band members had their own issues.

Oh, and about the album being ready to roll in 2000?  Yeah...nope.  I don't think so anymore.  I used to.  I mean, Sean's memory might not be 100% reliable, but if CD had been actually read to master at that time, I'd think he'd remember that.  He didn't give the impression that CD was ready to go did he?  

The one thing that makes me still hopeful for new music is that Axl needs the income to maintain his lifestyle and that of others in his circle whom he looks after.  And he can't continue to do that on the old songs, not for much longer.  So with Slash and Duff back in the fold to crack the whip, we may yet see new GNR music. 

And yes, would love a follow up with Youth. 

I  think Axl and the boys made enough money to last for a very long time. I do think we'll hear new music. I doubt that Slash and Duff just came back to do one tour. With that being said, this thread is more about CD.