Tour Lithographs and show specific artwork

[DeathCubeUK]

21 minutes ago, amaninjapan said:

The only Picassos you're getting for that price are lithographs/prints, not originals. I'm sure there's plenty of claimed original sketches that come with no provenance or proof but you might as well just draw one yourself and save yourself the money.

 

I don't know man, I have an economics degree as well and the first thing you ever learn about economics is that in the real world, there will always be finite resources however the potential for consumer consumption of goods and services has no upper boundary and is for all intents and purposes, limitless. Additionally, you might be able to predict or model human necessity for certain goods or services but it's near impossible to predict or model human desire for goods or services. Something like a poster has value almost solely reliant on that immeasurable thing that is human desire.

And I think you're conflating two things - "Demand for an item" and "Ability to buy an item" - There's 9 bidders on Kobe and at least two of them are willing to pay over $5000 for it (one to bid its current price of $5400 and another to raise the current bid to that amount). Just because there's only (at least) 2 people who can afford to bid that much says absolutely nothing about how many people WANT Kobe. Nevertheless, judging by the comments in this thread, it's at least 2 more people than everyone expected! Just because 99% of people out there can't bring themselves to bid $5k on Kobe doesn't mean that the demand is "not what we tend to believe."

I should also point out that one might claim that demand/interest in GNR lithos might not be as big as we might think - but there has been more posts in this thread in the past two days because of this one Ebay auction than there had been posts in the past six months - for a concert that was held more than three and a half years ago! Maybe the demand/interest for GNR lithos is not immense but the demand/interest for Kobe specifically still seems to burn furiously.

Actually, I don't think it's fair or accurate to think "demand for GNR lithos" and "demand for Kobe" have anything to do with each other. Just because the average demand for a generic Ford on Ebay is low doesn't mean that if a Ford GT40 was listed on Ebay that it wouldn't be in high demand. Kobe has been, since the day after the concert, an outlier for sure. Some 2016 GNR lithos still go for the same price as they did in 2016 on Ebay, other designs have increased significantly in price. Do posters generally hold their value? Hard to say, right? Definitely falls into the "it depends" column. There's more data to work with if you look at Pearl Jam or Dave Matthews Band posters and although I can't say comfortably that they do or they don't, I think it's safe to say that THEY CAN. That iconic Pearl Jam Pittsburgh poster sold recently this year on Ebay for about $2300 and that concert was 7 years ago but it's also seen/traded a lot more frequently than Kobe. Apples and oranges I know but my point was that it's a case-by-case thing and with certain iconic designs, I think there is potential for them to hold higher than average value.

BUT - most importantly - unlike Pearl Jam posters (and this is just my personal opinion) - I do not believe most buyers of the more expensive GNR lithos give too much of a fuck about lithos holding value. I feel like a large amount of them pay the premium simply as payment for the chance to buy it and the opportunity to own it. The same thing happened to me recently when it came to buying a catalog from Ebay. There was a toy catalog from the 1980s that I must have thumbed through a million times and it was just an iconic object of my childhood. No idea what happened to my original catalog but I stumbled across a copy on Ebay for $80. We're talking about maybe something with an intrinsic value of like 10 cents. It's just a catalog. But I checked and it was the only one listed on Ebay, there were none that were recently sold on Ebay and there was nowhere else online that sold a copy. Was this item worth $80? Not a chance. But I was willing to pay $80 for the privilege of owning it. I received it safe and sound, I love it, I wouldn't value it more than 10 cents but the other $79.90 I was happy to pay for the privilege. How much of a lithos price is value that will hold and how much of it is paying for that privilege to own one? Impossible to say. But anybody who has been tracking GNR litho prices on Ebay and (specifically Kobe prices) since 2017 know that one went unsold for $500, then another sold for $2000 and now one is going to sell for $5000+ assuming we don't get hit by a meteorite in the next couple of days. It'd be foolish to be looking at these as investment pieces (I don't they shouldn't be treated as such, but that's just my opinion) but if you really really want one, it seems like the going rate is higher than we all might have tricked ourselves into believing.

@amaninjapan When I say a signed Picasso, I mean exactly that. A signed lithograph or print (which is still "original"). No one is bidding on an oil on canvas of the Kobe lithograph. You're comparing apples with oranges here, not me.

Whilst I respect your standing as a GN'R lithograph collector, we won't agree on all things relating to them. After all, you have a vested interest, being the owner of said litho. 

I agree with your commentary on the unpredictability of human desire by the way, and that we do often just buy things because we want them, not necessarily because they will sell for a profit down the line. There is also the flip side however, such as the Madrid,  Oslo, Chorzow and Copenhagen litho's that have just appeared for a significant mark up (after they were purchased at $55 a few weeks ago from the guy who dumped all those litho's).

My original comment was just based on the overall market for GN'R and their future potential value. When I mentioned Picasso's and Dalì's, I am referring to current values sold at Christie's and Sotheby's, with provenance. Not on ebay with no provenance (do we know the Kobe to be "original"? Are you the seller?). It was just to highlight that there are other things available for that value that would surprise some people when pointed out (which I believe it did).

My other beef was with the economics lecture from Mcs953, as it goes without saying. Perhaps I'm trying to buy the Kobe and I'm trying to put people from here off biddinf for it? Perhaps I'm the seller and it's a double bluff to garner MORE interest?? Just saying..

I'm am neither the former, nor the latter.. it is out of my price range, and it was after a few hours haha!

Peace @amaninjapan If you're ever feeling charitable, i will gladly look after your extra Kobe 😂🤣

 

[Gavin82]

2 hours ago, DeathCubeUK said:

I'd want more than just 2 tickets and a BJ for 20 grand 😂🤣

My intuition tells me that the majority of people bidding are not people with a few hundred thousand spare, but i might be wrong.

Yeah of course they prob don't but if you got a good saving good money coming in its defo doable 

[amaninjapan]

5 hours ago, DeathCubeUK said:

@amaninjapan When I say a signed Picasso, I mean exactly that. A signed lithograph or print (which is still "original"). No one is bidding on an oil on canvas of the Kobe lithograph. You're comparing apples with oranges here, not me.

Whilst I respect your standing as a GN'R lithograph collector, we won't agree on all things relating to them. After all, you have a vested interest, being the owner of said litho. 

I agree with your commentary on the unpredictability of human desire by the way, and that we do often just buy things because we want them, not necessarily because they will sell for a profit down the line. There is also the flip side however, such as the Madrid,  Oslo, Chorzow and Copenhagen litho's that have just appeared for a significant mark up (after they were purchased at $55 a few weeks ago from the guy who dumped all those litho's).

My original comment was just based on the overall market for GN'R and their future potential value. When I mentioned Picasso's and Dalì's, I am referring to current values sold at Christie's and Sotheby's, with provenance. Not on ebay with no provenance (do we know the Kobe to be "original"? Are you the seller?). It was just to highlight that there are other things available for that value that would surprise some people when pointed out (which I believe it did).

My other beef was with the economics lecture from Mcs953, as it goes without saying. Perhaps I'm trying to buy the Kobe and I'm trying to put people from here off biddinf for it? Perhaps I'm the seller and it's a double bluff to garner MORE interest?? Just saying..

I'm am neither the former, nor the latter.. it is out of my price range, and it was after a few hours haha!

Peace @amaninjapan If you're ever feeling charitable, i will gladly look after your extra Kobe 😂🤣

 

I've already given away plenty of GNR lithos thank you very much! If you want my Kobe, pay up or get me a date with Miranda Kerr haha!

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding the Picasso thing, because I feel like you're using the term 'original' to mean 'authentic' - the meaning of 'original' means "the first or earliest" or "not a copy" - by very definition a lithograph is a reproduction. But I get what you're trying to say - I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Nevertheless, I still posit that $5k might buy you a Picasso but probably not much of one. The cheapest in all of Sotheby's past items went for $25 million, most of them for $40 million+:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/artists/pablo-picasso#past-lots

You're the one who brought up the Picasso/Dali comparison so if there's apples and oranges at this table, then you brought them along! You said that you were just "highlighting other things available for that value that would surprise some people" - why not be more arbitrary? Why choose Picasso or Dali? Why not some no-name local artist selling their painting for $5000? Why not 500,000 pennies? I feel like it's disingenuous to say it wasn't an attempt to downplay the value of the litho for sale. Which is fine, I don't think the tactic is unethical. I'm sure we've done it all at some stage, right? Tried some tactic to  reduce the cost of ownership or the strength of competition for something? Competing with a friend or family member for that last piece of chocolate cake - "oh you don't want that... you're more of a ice cream lover, aren't you... you're already full, aren't you?... you've been packing on the pounds lately..." haha. Or if it's something I've been outpriced on, something I really wanted but is now out of my grasp financially, I will freely admit I get all 'sour grapes' about it haha. There was a nice watch I wanted to buy but the color I liked the most, they only made one of and they auctioned it off for charity. It went for literally hundreds of thousands of dollars more than it's 'realistic' value and hundreds of thousands more than I was willing to pay for... but screw it, it wasn't that nice a watch anyway! It would have been too heavy on my wrist!

And yes I suppose I have a vested interest, but you do too. As a potential buyer, it benefits you to minimize the potential cost of owning something you want. Can't think of a better way to do that than by highlighting the lack of value and then providing some alternative for people you're competing with to throw their money at to put it all into perspective. If I was truly concerned about the value of Kobe, I wouldn't have given a Kobe away for free to a fellow forum member, nor would I have ruined any potential resale value of my Kobe by getting Duff to personalize it with my name. If I woke up tomorrow and my entire litho collection was worth zero, I would give zero fucks and sleep like a baby. The money I spent on my collection at least in my eyes all went into paying for that opportunity to own something I wanted to own. I have no intention of ever selling my collection and it would take a monumental over-the-top offer to pry them off my hands. Like free backstage passes for life or Jay Leno's car collection.

I disagree with the relevance of the 'flipside' in this current conversation too - I agree the flipside exists of course, but I think we ALL agree that those lithographs that got relisted were ALL sold for WAY below market value - if they hadn't, I guarantee you we wouldn't be talking about them. I don't see there being anything wrong with that seller doing what they're doing, especially considering that those resale prices are all still lower than market value for those designs. And by market value I mean "I know of multiple people who have bought/sold those exact designs for noticeably higher prices"
 

[amaninjapan]

And I don't think I saw anything wrong with what @Mcs953 said. It was literally one sentence where he simply said it was "low supply, high demand" - Come on man, one sentence doesn't constitute a lecture. And he's right, isn't he? There are far less Kobes going around than there are people who would like to own one and that is definitely a significant factor in why it attracts such a high premium.

And as much as I enjoy buying off Ebay (slightly less so recently since they decided to start collecting god damn sales tax) - I wouldn't sell a litho on Ebay on principle - Ebay and Paypal have to be delusional to think they're going to steal 15% off me every sale. Fuck that!

[The Holographic Universe]

12 hours ago, DeathCubeUK said:

Not sure what your point is? I have a degree in Economics so I grasp the supply/demand. Not sure what Picasso prices while he was alive has to do with it in terms of a Kobe though? I suppose that concert is dead, but other than that?

My point was, that as much as I would love a Kobe, it won't hold its value like a Picasso or a Dalì. There are 9 bidders on the Kobe. The demand for GN'R litho's is not what this forum or we tend to believe it is (compared to the artists I mentioned, let's be clear).

Good luck to the seller and the eventual buyer though, we'll agree on that. I hope they pay whatever price it finishes at. 

Well you make some valid points. I was one of the bidders and to be honest, I’m purposely drove the price up the first 24 hours so I didn’t have to wait for the final 5 minutes of the auction. I stopped at 3k, though. The Kobe litho could hold its value. But, it’s unlikely to have this value outside of this niche community. So where as you could go sale a Picasso with ease, selling a GNR litho with this price will be a small pool of candidates and could prove difficult in the future. But, with this Litho it will become increasingly unlikely to find one for sale unless a person who owns one finds themselves no longer attached or needs quick cash. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by The Holographic Universe

[The Holographic Universe]

9 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

This is absurd for a modern day GNR poster, what the fuck. I cannot believe someone would spend over $5000 for a screen print! Then again, I guess there are other things like baseball and hockey cards that go for similar (and more). Crazy to me, as said above, if you can get a work signed from Picasso or Dali for less that also blows my mind. 

I agree with you. It’s highly unusual for modern rock poster to have this value. I don’t believe scarcity is the driving factor, it’s the image itself. There are many GNR lithos with 150 prints runs that sale below 300$. There are others with print runs of 100 and 80, that are valued far below the Kobe. The Kobe litho is a perfect storm of variables creating an anomaly. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by The Holographic Universe

[amaninjapan]

52 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Well you make some valid points. I was one of the bidders and to be honest, I’m purposely drove the price up the first 24 hours so I didn’t have to wait for the final 5 minutes of the auction. I stopped at 3k, though. The Kobe litho could hold its value. But, it’s unlikely to have this value outside of this niche community. So where as you could go sale a Picasso with ease, selling a GNR litho with this price will be a small pool of candidates and could prove difficult in the future. But, with this Litho it will become increasingly unlikely to find one for sale unless a person who owns one finds themselves no longer attached or needs quick cash. 

There are things such as rare Ferraris and paintings that end up having values that consist a lot of resale potential and/or end up simply being wealth sinks. For example I think we all saw in the news a year or two ago about that Da Vinci painting that sold at auction for half a billion dollars. It was speculated that it might have so expensive because it served as a way to store money without paying tax or as a way to defer tax. Leave it in storage in a free economic zone and its essentially a virtually free bank account.

And the Ferrari world is infamous for focusing incessantly on resale value. It's very common for people to choose the color for their new Ferrari based on how easy it will be to resell when they want to sell (which I think is insane). Red ferraris with tan interior are easiest to sell and retain their value better so instead of buying one in your favorite color, get a red one because you'll get more money when you sell.

Either way, these types of items have a value that extends past its normal parameters. I don't believe GNR lithos have this.  I think once you get above a certain threshold, their entire value is based on simply wanting it. Except for the aforementioned lithos being sold for clearly below value, any increase in value over time for a litho is a pleasant bonus and not an expected outcome.

 

[troccoli]

Why not wade into this debate, nothing else to do!  Here is another thing to eBay.  This fucking nonsense where two bidders are just fucking with each other has happened MANY times before.  The real question is whether or not the person is going to pay.  Not much of a penalty for not paying, account gets suspended or deleted.  BFD, just create another. 

On a personal note, I agree with Riki.  And like him, I don't collect any of my GNR stuff (not just the lithos) for an investment.  I think the only smart thing to collect as an investment is original art (if you can afford it) or gold/silver coins (just due to the gold and silver).  And even then art goes up and down, for most artists.  Yes there are some artists that will always stay the same, or go up, but that is a rarefied league for the 1%.  Like Riki, I collect it because I enjoy it.  If it goes down in value so be it.  Of course I hope it goes up or at least retains value.

And lastly, and most importantly, not all GNR collectors are on the forums or Facebook.  I know several with deep pockets that are private people, and don't go on here.  When you see some of these GNR auctions that have big price finishes?  That's them usually.  A lot of them don't trust eBay either, so they only buy from auction houses.  Not that auction houses get it right all the time of course.

[uzi your illusion]

21 minutes ago, troccoli said:

Why not wade into this debate, nothing else to do!  Here is another thing to eBay.  This fucking nonsense where two bidders are just fucking with each other has happened MANY times before.  The real question is whether or not the person is going to pay.  Not much of a penalty for not paying, account gets suspended or deleted.  BFD, just create another. 

On a personal note, I agree with Riki.  And like him, I don't collect any of my GNR stuff (not just the lithos) for an investment.  I think the only smart thing to collect as an investment is original art (if you can afford it) or gold/silver coins (just due to the gold and silver).  And even then art goes up and down, for most artists.  Yes there are some artists that will always stay the same, or go up, but that is a rarefied league for the 1%.  Like Riki, I collect it because I enjoy it.  If it goes down in value so be it.  Of course I hope it goes up or at least retains value.

And lastly, and most importantly, not all GNR collectors are on the forums or Facebook.  I know several with deep pockets that are private people, and don't go on here.  When you see some of these GNR auctions that have big price finishes?  That's them usually.  A lot of them don't trust eBay either, so they only buy from auction houses.  Not that auction houses get it right all the time of course.

What type of GNR items have you seen up for grabs at auction houses? 

[The Holographic Universe]

5 hours ago, uzi your illusion said:

What type of GNR items have you seen up for grabs at auction houses? 

I’m curious about that too.

[troccoli]

5 hours ago, uzi your illusion said:

What type of GNR items have you seen up for grabs at auction houses? 

 

41 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

I’m curious about that too.

Well right off the bat, the Erin Everly stuff.  Then there was the Slash Juliens auction.  Then there was Slash's red BC Rich Warlock guitar.  That's just a few.

[Gavin82]

59 bids now its up too over £4300GBP

[Spike Killer]

I'm about to place a bid for 6,000 ETB

Edited September 19, 2020 by Spike Killer

[DeathCubeUK]

Some people get what i was trying to say, some go off on a tangent. It's all good. I was going to reply the other day and thought of the opportunity cost of it all wasn't worth my time.

My initial post (without going back and re-reading it verbatum) essentially said "what a bargain, there are Picasso's and Dali's for a similar price". I was the first to say i could be trying to detract people from bidding, or i could be the seller double bluffing @amaninjapan, so no need to go into that debate. I also said i was neither, as i was peiced out way early in the race.

Et tu @troccoli haha! Of all the points Riki was trying to make, you agree with him on the only one nobody was disagreeing with? I never said don't buy a Kobe, it's a poor investment, or that i or anyone buys GN'R items for their potential resale value. I can honestly say i've never sold a Guns N' Roses item to my knowledge. That wasn't my point. 

I thibk we can all agree that like Riki said, the Kobe on ebay has generated more interest in this thread for some time, due to the litho itself (it is a beauty after all), and the gigantic price it is due to sell for.

I know of your kindness Riki, and Tim i am ever so grateful for helping me with shipping on the L&L/Turntable deal. Peace guys..let's hope another few Kobe's make it to the market and get that price down a little (for us mere mortals, just tryin ta make ends meet) ✌😜

[amaninjapan]

I think some people including myself got a little defensive because it seemed like you were saying that whatever amount you bid or are willing to pay was fine but people willing to pay $2/3/4/5k+ were making a mistake and that there was better value choices to spend money on. It felt like you were making fun of people who valued the litho significantly higher than you had (you said you tapped out early so I assume that means the current price is way more than what you value it at). Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that, but I think some people might infer that. But it's okay, we're all friends here man. I think the sudden litho talk also got my blood pumping haha.

I'm sure most litho collectors, if not all of us have paid more than original retail price for a litho at some stage and we all personally choose where to draw the line between 'fair price' and 'too much' - Do some people overpay? I'm sure some do. But I think of all the possible ways to buy/sell a litho, surely an auction is a reasonably fair way of judging value, is it not? If someone posts a Buy It Now litho and someone buys it, I suppose it's reasonable to wonder about true value in both directions - Did the buyer get hosed and overpay? Did the seller underestimate the value and leave something on the table? Either is definition possible. But auctions I think are kinda like an ugly way to verify you're getting the best deal possible (at least, at that particular time!) - With an auction, you always end up paying just enough to outpay at least the 2nd highest bidder. There's at least one other person who thinks the item is worth pretty much the same as you do. Or more accurately, thinks it's worth paying roughly the same amount to own the item as you do. Definitely harder to find a bargain this way but I think it's fair.

Anyway, no harm no foul here, it's all good. The GNR litho community is 99.9% good people from my experience! The 0.1% consists of cuntflaps like the dude at the last Los Angeles show in 2017 who walked up and down the line for merch trying to convince everyone he had already "pre-purchased" all 300 lithos and that everyone should just go home lol. Or the guy that tried to buy a fuckton of lithos at Hong Kong Night 2 and shut down all litho sales until the staff decided what sale rules they were going to implement. I'm sure we've ALL got our litho horror stories, right?

 

[DTV88]

10 hours ago, amaninjapan said:

I think some people including myself got a little defensive because it seemed like you were saying that whatever amount you bid or are willing to pay was fine but people willing to pay $2/3/4/5k+ were making a mistake and that there was better value choices to spend money on. It felt like you were making fun of people who valued the litho significantly higher than you had (you said you tapped out early so I assume that means the current price is way more than what you value it at). Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that, but I think some people might infer that. But it's okay, we're all friends here man. I think the sudden litho talk also got my blood pumping haha.

I'm sure most litho collectors, if not all of us have paid more than original retail price for a litho at some stage and we all personally choose where to draw the line between 'fair price' and 'too much' - Do some people overpay? I'm sure some do. But I think of all the possible ways to buy/sell a litho, surely an auction is a reasonably fair way of judging value, is it not? If someone posts a Buy It Now litho and someone buys it, I suppose it's reasonable to wonder about true value in both directions - Did the buyer get hosed and overpay? Did the seller underestimate the value and leave something on the table? Either is definition possible. But auctions I think are kinda like an ugly way to verify you're getting the best deal possible (at least, at that particular time!) - With an auction, you always end up paying just enough to outpay at least the 2nd highest bidder. There's at least one other person who thinks the item is worth pretty much the same as you do. Or more accurately, thinks it's worth paying roughly the same amount to own the item as you do. Definitely harder to find a bargain this way but I think it's fair.

Anyway, no harm no foul here, it's all good. The GNR litho community is 99.9% good people from my experience! The 0.1% consists of cuntflaps like the dude at the last Los Angeles show in 2017 who walked up and down the line for merch trying to convince everyone he had already "pre-purchased" all 300 lithos and that everyone should just go home lol. Or the guy that tried to buy a fuckton of lithos at Hong Kong Night 2 and shut down all litho sales until the staff decided what sale rules they were going to implement. I'm sure we've ALL got our litho horror stories, right?

 

Outside the stadium in San Francisco 2016, the merch guys sold an entire box of lithos to one guy before they even opened. I was able to grab mine inside, but that was total bullshit.

[uzi your illusion]

Alright its over now 

Who was I bidding against at the end there? Was it someone here?

[The Holographic Universe]

5 minutes ago, uzi your illusion said:

Alright its over now 

Who was I bidding against at the end there? Was it someone here?

How high did you go?

[uzi your illusion]

3 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

How high did you go?

Let's just say I was there at the end 

 

[The Holographic Universe]

6 minutes ago, uzi your illusion said:

Let's just say I was there at the end 

 

Fair enough. You know there is a guy on this forum, I’m sure you know him who has an extra Kobe. If you were there in the end.

[owenstar]

9k holy shit! I think it can now be counted as a grail (not that it wasn't before). That exceeded my expectations.

Whats up old homies? Covid has kept my world spinning, hope you are all doing well!

[amaninjapan]

19 minutes ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Fair enough. You know there is a guy on this forum, I’m sure you know him who has an extra Kobe. If you were there in the end.

The bill would be a LOT smaller too!

[ZoSoRose]

Holy fuck

[The Holographic Universe]

5 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Holy fuck

9100$ It’s your fault for starting this thread many moons ago. 

[troccoli]

17 hours ago, DeathCubeUK said:

Some people get what i was trying to say, some go off on a tangent. It's all good. I was going to reply the other day and thought of the opportunity cost of it all wasn't worth my time.

My initial post (without going back and re-reading it verbatum) essentially said "what a bargain, there are Picasso's and Dali's for a similar price". I was the first to say i could be trying to detract people from bidding, or i could be the seller double bluffing @amaninjapan, so no need to go into that debate. I also said i was neither, as i was peiced out way early in the race.

Et tu @troccoli haha! Of all the points Riki was trying to make, you agree with him on the only one nobody was disagreeing with? I never said don't buy a Kobe, it's a poor investment, or that i or anyone buys GN'R items for their potential resale value. I can honestly say i've never sold a Guns N' Roses item to my knowledge. That wasn't my point. 

I thibk we can all agree that like Riki said, the Kobe on ebay has generated more interest in this thread for some time, due to the litho itself (it is a beauty after all), and the gigantic price it is due to sell for.

I know of your kindness Riki, and Tim i am ever so grateful for helping me with shipping on the L&L/Turntable deal. Peace guys..let's hope another few Kobe's make it to the market and get that price down a little (for us mere mortals, just tryin ta make ends meet) ✌😜

No worries man!  But I don't think I was arguing with you, or anyone, just stating my opinions on the current subjects being discussed, that's all.  Peace!