Russia Invades Ukraine

[action]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

So the books you read on various topics aren’t written by experts?

I do not pick books based on who wrote them, but more on the basis of what is written in it.

generally, I prefer books that offer information, and leave the conclusion to the reader

a book does not need to be written by an expert, to offer information. Any administrative skill is sufficient to compile and offer information. It's the synthesing of knowledge that is harder to do, and which I prefer to do myself.

think of it like eating food. I like to chew it myself, I do not like the thought of other people chewing my food. Same goes for knowledge. 

an expert, usually, sits there on the news, or whatever, and offers an opinion, for example "you need to wear a mouth mask", without elaborating too  much on technicalities. An expert, and this is common to most academics, has a bit of a smug attitude and does not expect his public to understand technicalities too much. That's ok for most people, but not for me.

technicalities interest me greatly, even if they sometimes are difficult to follow. you can find these in books, try to take the gist of it, and come up with an original conclusion.

[ZoSoRose]

1 hour ago, action said:

I do not pick books based on who wrote them, but more on the basis of what is written in it.

generally, I prefer books that offer information, and leave the conclusion to the reader

a book does not need to be written by an expert, to offer information. Any administrative skill is sufficient to compile and offer information. It's the synthesing of knowledge that is harder to do, and which I prefer to do myself.

think of it like eating food. I like to chew it myself, I do not like the thought of other people chewing my food. Same goes for knowledge. 

an expert, usually, sits there on the news, or whatever, and offers an opinion, for example "you need to wear a mouth mask", without elaborating too  much on technicalities. An expert, and this is common to most academics, has a bit of a smug attitude and does not expect his public to understand technicalities too much. That's ok for most people, but not for me.

technicalities interest me greatly, even if they sometimes are difficult to follow. you can find these in books, try to take the gist of it, and come up with an original conclusion.

So coloring books?

[action]

5 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

You're saying you have such an aversion to being told what to do/talked to by someone who's thought of as more qualified than you, that you just reject it and retreat into your own world. In a sympathetic way I find that quite upsetting honestly.

Diesel has some sort of problem with me but regardless I'm sure he knows more about history than I do, regarding the ancient Romans for example. So unless there was an obvious reason to doubt, I'd generally take his word on it. Could always look into it myself if I felt the need.

I don't really want to get all academic(myself I mean) regarding politics. I prefer to restrict my level of engagement with it to mostly casual/informal - but I'm aware that I'm doing so - I just totally wing-it and I do this quite well, arguably. This does not mean I then think there's no place for political academia. downzy is neck deep in that shit, he's studied politics, so I'll hear him out on things.

And so on and so on.

Say I win a Pulitzer Prize for a novel I'm writing and at a party where everyone is praising and celebrating my genius, somebody - somebody's child even - wanders over to me and in front of everyone, says something that suddenly makes my book look like utter dogwater. Malicious or not, I would probably be in a lot of pain. But I'd also not deny this thing they'd managed to point out and I would be able to laugh about it, eventually if not immediately.

This attitude is one of the core foundational elements of being intelligent and life in general. It's a sprawlingly necessary attribute. Not just for the sake of respecting others and yourself but it serves your own ends. You need to re-asses. You are making a mistake. Caution, waterfall ahead.

 

I read somewhere, it could be a scientific magazine, that people only use 5% of their brain, and experts 7% or something

this will not be too far from the truth.

What I'm saying is that, with training, and effort, and determination, anyone could become an expert in whatever field they like.

Give me a handbook on roman history, and let me and Diesel take an exam on the matter, and we'll no doubt have similar results.

A grade, a "diploma", is just a piece of paper. it is interesting the day you get it, and hang it on the wall, but the next day it's pretty irrelevant and you need to show what you're made of. A diploma is quickly a thing of the past, since informations comes quickly, it changes every day.

[Waclimino]

I'm not going to write a huge essay on the matter. Only some observations from a man on the inside who is against the war, half-Ukrainian, and tries to look at things as objectively as possible. And, after 9 months, has the power of hindsight.
Me being half-Ukrainian isn't anything out of the ordinary in Russia. At the time when both countries were blocs of a Soviet Union, it wasn't uncommon for the people to travel between them, meet each other, fall in love and start a family. That's what happened in my case as well - my father came to (at the time) Leningrad from Sevastopol where he grew up, met my mom and the rest, as they say, is history. So.
What's going on now is a horrible situation for all involved, for a lot of different reasons. And, unfortunately, not as black and white as Western media tries to make it seem - evil and terrible Russia attacking poor, innocent Ukraine. Unfortunately, because the situation would've been far more simpler if it really was that way. In reality, not as poor and not as innocent, as it turns out, even though not much is written about it on the other side (although there has been some movement in the opposite direction - it telling about the Russian captive soldiers being killed, which is just one of the many atrocities committed by Ukrainians, people in Kherson being tied to posts, Amnesty International report, which, although having been gaslit, still saw the light of day, and other reports).
No, I'm not saying all this because I've been brainwashed by propaganda - believe me, I have all the means of accessing information, so I know what's actually going on. Plus, it isn't as restricted as some may try to lead you to believe. Most of the foreign sites are readily available and even official reporting is not all roses, not to mention countless independent sources. And I can reach this site and many others (and write this message) without any fear of repercussions - this is to the topic of how horribly oppressed and stifled Russians are. No, we are not. Our government isn't actually that different from governments all across the world. Follow the official line or get kicked in the teeth. Other than that, there's actually more freedom in some departments than I saw in some European countries and the USA. The problem is, there has been more and more things lately that the government isn't happy about, but that's a whole other matter of discussion.
Speaking of propaganda, I actually find it amazing how some people, who aren't even able to find Ukraine on the map, actually believe that the entire country has been put under some sort of spell. Do they actually think that the entire 140-million some population is that stupid and naive? There are, of course, radicals, as there are everywhere, but those of us who do want to know, do know. And there are a lot of us. Those who don't want to know... Well... Can lead the horse to the water, but can't make it drink.
Why, then, has there been no uprising, you ask? I guess nothing so strong that could spark it happened yet. Also, the answer to that might be found by the end of this post. The hatred does exist, unfortunately, on both sides.
And the other side doesn't have it easy. What Zelenskyy is doing now, shutting down independent reporters, forbidding to tell about the real consequences of the war, including losses, signing decrees that free the Ukrainian politicians from having to be under financial surveillance during their lifetimes (which didn't happen in Russia), and many other things, all under a guise of war, is exactly what Putin did in Russia. Only, it took him twenty-two years to get to that point. Zelenskyy did all that in nine months.
No matter what the Ukrainians are trying to do now, destroying the Russian monuments (to Pushkin, among others) and saying how they are so different and not like the Russians at all, the history between the countries is rich and intertwined. Their presidents share the first name, for crying out loud. And I'm not even going to mention the cultural and family ties, tons of trade preferences given to Ukraine by Russia (yes, by that same, horrible, occupant country it's attempted to be painted as), visa-free travel, so they could, among everything else, come and make more money in Russia than they could in their own country, nuclear powerplants left from the USSR days, and lots of other things. Which makes the current proceedings even more tragic.
However, they didn't just come from out of nowhere and that is important. Ukrainians didn't just start shitting on Russia because of the war. It didn't even start after Crimea. No, it was happening for a very long time, with them being sure that they will live oh so much better if only they could break away from Russia (despite all of the practical things mentioned above, so go figure), that Russians oppress them and that they should just go away. And I would like to conclude with something the media won't tell you about.
The year is 1998, I'm ten years old and I'm vacationing in Kyiv (see, I even spell it how it's supposed to be spelled now, not "Kiev", as it's been for ages) with my grandparents on my father's side (remember, I'm half-Ukrainian). One day, I go out on the playground, meet some kids, as you do, tell them I came from Russia, along the way, we play and everything is fine. The next day I come out, see them again and approach them, all smiles, like "'sup, you guys?" What do I hear in return? "Get out of here, you Russian pig, we are not going to play with you." I turn around and walk away. I understand that that was what they heard from their parents, but still. Now imagine the entire country of kids growing up and hearing about "Russian pigs". So in some ways, the conflict was maybe even inevitable. Even without the political interference from the USA in 2013, confirmed by Obama, among others.
TL;DR - I love Russia. I love Ukraine. Fuck war. Love everywhere in the world. Burn the weapons. Peace.

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, Waclimino said:

I'm not going to write a huge essay on the matter. Only some observations from a man on the inside who is against the war, half-Ukrainian, and tries to look at things as objectively as possible. And, after 9 months, has the power of hindsight.
Me being half-Ukrainian isn't anything out of the ordinary in Russia. At the time when both countries were blocs of a Soviet Union, it wasn't uncommon for the people to travel between them, meet each other, fall in love and start a family. That's what happened in my case as well - my father came to (at the time) Leningrad from Sevastopol where he grew up, met my mom and the rest, as they say, is history. So.
What's going on now is a horrible situation for all involved, for a lot of different reasons. And, unfortunately, not as black and white as Western media tries to make it seem - evil and terrible Russia attacking poor, innocent Ukraine. Unfortunately, because the situation would've been far more simpler if it really was that way. In reality, not as poor and not as innocent, as it turns out, even though not much is written about it on the other side (although there has been some movement in the opposite direction - it telling about the Russian captive soldiers being killed, which is just one of the many atrocities committed by Ukrainians, people in Kherson being tied to posts, Amnesty International report, which, although having been gaslit, still saw the light of day, and other reports).
No, I'm not saying all this because I've been brainwashed by propaganda - believe me, I have all the means of accessing information, so I know what's actually going on. Plus, it isn't as restricted as some may try to lead you to believe. Most of the foreign sites are readily available and even official reporting is not all roses, not to mention countless independent sources. And I can reach this site and many others (and write this message) without any fear of repercussions - this is to the topic of how horribly oppressed and stifled Russians are. No, we are not. Our government isn't actually that different from governments all across the world. Follow the official line or get kicked in the teeth. Other than that, there's actually more freedom in some departments than I saw in some European countries and the USA. The problem is, there has been more and more things lately that the government isn't happy about, but that's a whole other matter of discussion.
Speaking of propaganda, I actually find it amazing how some people, who aren't even able to find Ukraine on the map, actually believe that the entire country has been put under some sort of spell. Do they actually think that the entire 140-million some population is that stupid and naive? There are, of course, radicals, as there are everywhere, but those of us who do want to know, do know. And there are a lot of us. Those who don't want to know... Well... Can lead the horse to the water, but can't make it drink.
Why, then, has there been no uprising, you ask? I guess nothing so strong that could spark it happened yet. Also, the answer to that might be found by the end of this post. The hatred does exist, unfortunately, on both sides.
And the other side doesn't have it easy. What Zelenskyy is doing now, shutting down independent reporters, forbidding to tell about the real consequences of the war, including losses, signing decrees that free the Ukrainian politicians from having to be under financial surveillance during their lifetimes (which didn't happen in Russia), and many other things, all under a guise of war, is exactly what Putin did in Russia. Only, it took him twenty-two years to get to that point. Zelenskyy did all that in nine months.
No matter what the Ukrainians are trying to do now, destroying the Russian monuments (to Pushkin, among others) and saying how they are so different and not like the Russians at all, the history between the countries is rich and intertwined. Their presidents share the first name, for crying out loud. And I'm not even going to mention the cultural and family ties, tons of trade preferences given to Ukraine by Russia (yes, by that same, horrible, occupant country it's attempted to be painted as), visa-free travel, so they could, among everything else, come and make more money in Russia than they could in their own country, nuclear powerplants left from the USSR days, and lots of other things. Which makes the current proceedings even more tragic.
However, they didn't just come from out of nowhere and that is important. Ukrainians didn't just start shitting on Russia because of the war. It didn't even start after Crimea. No, it was happening for a very long time, with them being sure that they will live oh so much better if only they could break away from Russia (despite all of the practical things mentioned above, so go figure), that Russians oppress them and that they should just go away. And I would like to conclude with something the media won't tell you about.
The year is 1998, I'm ten years old and I'm vacationing in Kyiv (see, I even spell it how it's supposed to be spelled now, not "Kiev", as it's been for ages) with my grandparents on my father's side (remember, I'm half-Ukrainian). One day, I go out on the playground, meet some kids, as you do, tell them I came from Russia, along the way, we play and everything is fine. The next day I come out, see them again and approach them, all smiles, like "'sup, you guys?" What do I hear in return? "Get out of here, you Russian pig, we are not going to play with you." I turn around and walk away. I understand that that was what they heard from their parents, but still. Now imagine the entire country of kids growing up and hearing about "Russian pigs". So in some ways, the conflict was maybe even inevitable. Even without the political interference from the USA in 2013, confirmed by Obama, among others.
TL;DR - I love Russia. I love Ukraine. Fuck war. Love everywhere in the world. Burn the weapons. Peace.

All this aside, Russia still invaded Ukraine. Russia attacked a neighboring country and started a war. Russia started the war. Then of course war is terrible and leads to atrocities on both sides, as you say, and yes media around the world will be biased in reporting this and things are not so clear and simple with all Ukrainians being heroes and all Russians being villains - of course!! - except for this fact: All of these terrible things that is happening in this war and this animosity against Russia that is now been created in the West and will last for generations with Russia being a pariah, is Russia's fault because they decided to invade Ukraine. In a moronic act of imperialistic aggression, Russia invaded Ukraine. They can spew their propaganda about the situation being terrible for Russians living in eastern Ukraine, that NATO was moving closer, etc etc, but nothing of this absolves Russia from the sin of starting a war. Nothing of that propaganda means Russia had no other choices. Nothing of it invariably leads to war. There is simply no excuse for all the deaths, all the destruction, all the hatred and animosity that is being created because of the war. It will punish Russians for generations to come. How can we trust Russia now? Sweden and Finland are becoming part of NATO - Putin has singlehandedly crushed their longtime stance of neutrality through his moronic war! NATO is spending more money on their military. The war is just so mind-numbingly stupid and so heart-wrenchingly wrong. How can you live with Putin dragging Russia through the mud like this? Why don't you protest in the streets and throw him down?

[Waclimino]

Like I said in the beginning, I am against the war, so your points will get no argument from me, especially about the war being a moronic decision. As far as protesting goes, I don't want to see Russia fall apart, but I am of the opinion that the current government overstayed their welcome a long time ago and leads the country towards the abyss. However, I am but one. Lots of people who could protest left the country. Once there's enough of them in one place that the action could be taken, it could be done. I, personally, would be out in the front. However, like I also mentioned, the spark hasn't been lit yet. Why it hasn't been puzzles me sometimes, too.

[Waclimino]

5 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Hopefully the war stops soon and the aftermath for everyone isn't too dire. Unfortunately, some things will last quite a while.

People being feeble minded and calling little Russian kids "Russian pigs" is disgusting.

Surely/hopefully most people just hate Russia's corrupt scumbag government and this evil invasion but know better than to sweepingly judge literally all Russians. It's like USA, everyone hates their corrupt scumbag government etc but not the everyday people, surely, that would be crazy.

For what it's worth I'm one of the people who know better than to be racist/bigoted. I hope you and your loved ones stay safe.

Thank you. Yeah, I would hope so, too, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I and a lot of Russians don't want the war. A lot of Ukrainians, even those living in cities pounded the most, don't want it. Unfortunately, there are also people on both sides that do and want the fight until the end. They enjoy killing each other, for reasons outlined above.

For anyone who doesn't read my post in full (nor do you have to), I'd like to point out that I don't whitewash the war, nor do I advocate for it. The only thing I'm saying is that the animosity between two countries goes far more back in time than Putin flying off the rocker and attacking, that one party isn't exclusively to blame, and that there are nutjobs on both sides of the fence who want to see the enemy defeated in blood. Just as well as there is a great number of those who want the war to stop.

I certainly didn't start hating the West and why would I? I separate the politicians from the people and know that what governments do doesn't reflect the opinion of everyone from the street. But I also won't start chastising and denouncing my homeland. I love my country. I'm not supporting what it does at the moment, but I want to see it get past it, learn and get better.

And speaking of getting past it... I hold out hope that one of the bands one day decides that playing in Russia and giving the proceeds to Ukraine (directly to the charity, however, with full control of the money, 'cause there is enough evidence of Western aid not getting where it's supposed to and getting stolen along the way, or even being sold in stores) would be far stronger statement than boycotting it. Others will, hopefully, follow suit, as it's a win-win for everyone. Ukraine gets the Russian money directly from the Russians and people here get the much needed relief from the shit flowing from all sides.

Finally, I'm not putting the countries side by side, for a lot of reasons, but Germany was able to absolve itself and it didn't even take a hundred years to do so. With the right approach, Russia could, too.

[Waclimino]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

Personally, I actually would have dissolved Germany the country/entity effective immediately, as soon as WW2 ended. Either absorbing the land and its population into its neighbouring countries or giving it to the Jews - but maybe that would be an even bigger mistake than Israel. 

It's not a competition or a scapegoat but yes, the extent of Germany's wrongdoing far exceeds most things anyone can dream of and they, very, very luckily for them, were allowed to continue to exist. On that note you do have to admire their tenacious capabilities to rebuild themselves.

I am certain Russia can rebuild and move forward. But you guys really need to kill Putin and remove the rest of the unhinged bloodthirsty Cold War types from power. Ideally that happens and Alexei Navalny is the next Russian President.

Again, I very much doubt everyone hates everyday Russians. It probably just feels that way while the war is ongoing. The whole situation is a tragic mess.

My impression is that even now, for some time, there is sympathy for everyday Russian folks.

Yeah, it's not a competition by any means and what Germany did to Russia alone (Siege of Leningrad, anyone?) is far more cruel than Russia could even dream about. Don't exactly see Russian Air Force flying over Ukraine and doing what Luftwaffe did to Stalingrad (hope it never comes to this). There are also talks from some sources that Russia helping to rebuild Ukraine will be guised as investments, so both the nutjobs and doves parties will be happy and everyone will be friends again, without the situation spiraling further.

Putin and all his cohorts really need to be removed from power and it's actually my dream to one day read the headline, "Vladimir Putin has been transported to court". Can't have your arms in blood by the elbows and still die in your own bed. Some justice has to be served.

Not all the government, though. We, for example, have a tremendously capable Head of Central Bank who helped keep the economy together even in these times, so she definitely needs to stay, along with others who have their head screwed on straight.

Speaking of Navalny, nah. He has enough skeletons in his closet and is also a known nationalist, so not him. The rest of his team actually repulses me and I have a strong feeling that, were he to come to power, he'd do the exact thing Putin did - put all his friends in the positions of power and then bleed the country dry for years to come, holding on to the chair and refusing to leave it. Wouldn't want to vote for him or anyone related to him. Some fresh faces are needed and, most importantly, those who live in the now and don't consider television and telegraph to be the newest and most advanced technologies. And don't treat the world around them as their enemy by default. Military men have had their turn. I say give the power to businessmen next.

I don't think the world hates the Russians. I have enough people from abroad I talk to semi-regularly and no one's attitude towards me has changed. They, I think, understand the situation and they're not the only ones.

While we're on the topic of Russia, I'd also like to dispel the myth that we're that homophobic and racist country. I won't say there aren't any issues with this (mostly from the government side, and even they're being pressured to pass the laws, there's enough gays between them; and bigots can be found anywhere in the world), but most people just don't care. Lesbians walk around holding hands. Gays too. Plus, there's more than one gay bar in my city alone and gay toys are freely sold in sex shops. You couldn't really have that was the homosexuality considered a cardinal sin.

As far as racism goes, again, some bigots are around, sure. But I meet enough black people in my neighborhood alone (not to mention the downtown and other districts) and they walk around freely. Know how people react? They don't even notice them. Not because they force themselves to look away, but because they treat them just like everyone else. A black is a black, a Chinese is a Chinese, whatever. And it's a general philosophy with a lot of the Russians. We are actually too open in some areas in that department, and that leads to a whole other assortment of problems when people from Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Dagestan (a Russian republic, but still), who are allowed to enter freely, start attacking people with knives, among other things.

To end things on a lighter note, St. Petersburg is a beautiful city to visit, especially in the summer if the weather is good. And the Ukrainian girls are yummy

Edited November 25, 2022 by Waclimino

[melonart]

Again Russia strikes with missiles and even hit normal living buildings. Putin must be either get killed or to the court and also his criminal partners who have the power in Russia.

 

After that hopefully Russia will be demilitarized to and divided into smaller countries to prevent this will never happen again. Then Russia should pay for the damage to the Ukraine and with new regime Russia could slowly rebuild relations to other countries. 

[grouse]

This thread has gone quiet, seems like public attention for this war has waned.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, grouse said:

This thread has gone quiet, seems like public attention for this war has waned.

It's the life cycle of news events. But I don't think this thread is representative to how much publicity the war still gets in newspapers and how much it is talked about. At least here in Norway, every day brings headlines form the war and we talk about it a lot. It is pretty close to us, we share border with Russia.

[EvanG]

For my job I deal with Ukrainian refugees under the age of 27 quite regularly. Most have adapted really well so far, are already learning to speak the language and many have found a job here.

[SoulMonster]

It seems like Ukrainian refugees are adapting nicely to living here in Norway, too.

I read something cool yesterday while going through a legal agreement:

"[] acknowledges that even though the Parties have signed this Agreement in awareness of the circumstances surrounding COVID-19 and Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine, that in view of resulting uncertainty of the further development of this pandemic and of any war situations and of resulting possible effects on the global economy, especially the supply chain situation this may also have impact on this Agreement."

Usually, language in such agreements would be very neutral, so I really appreciated the wording there and how the outrage and affront of what Russia has done even seeps into legal agreements between third party countries. 

[downzy]

7 hours ago, grouse said:

This thread has gone quiet, seems like public attention for this war has waned.

I follow the daily updates vis various news sources. The war is never far from the lead story when it’s not.  I just rarely post about it much here since the usual cast of characters chime in and suck the life out of the discussion. 

[janrichmond]

9 hours ago, EvanG said:

For my job I deal with Ukrainian refugees under the age of 27 quite regularly. Most have adapted really well so far, are already learning to speak the language and many have found a job here.

I also have refugees volunteering for the charity I work for, and they have learned the language enough to communicate with us, most have started taking English lessons at college too. I think it's great that they want to help others when they have had to deal with so much already. 

[Guest]

@EvanG @janrichmond Good for you with the charity work 

RAF been out flying in the dales past couple of months training, seen them a few times. I was hiking up a hill early moring in the country side last year and a jet fighter flew straight down the valley to my right. 

They  brought over around 11,000 last summer to train, mostly infantry but also tank crews and pilots.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Well it seems the new weapons the US gave Ukraine are working to knock Russian missiles out of the sky. Why didn't we give them these weapons before most of Ukraine was destroyed. I guess better late than never. 

[Coma16]

On 6/15/2023 at 3:16 PM, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Well it seems the new weapons the US gave Ukraine are working to knock Russian missiles out of the sky. Why didn't we give them these weapons before most of Ukraine was destroyed. I guess better late than never. 

Yeah, well, America just got cyberhacked.

[ZoSoRose]

Russia is now fighting itself. What a disaster this war has been for Russia

Edited June 27, 2023 by ZoSoRose

[SoulMonster]

It's the leader of the Wagner group who seems intent on suicide. Hope it will lead to implosion and at the very least it moves away soldiers from the war in Ukraine. Gotta love these cracks that are appearing in Russia. Could we dream of it leading to Putin's end?

[grouse]

He has picked his hill to die on that is for sure, I don't think a policy of appeasement is something the kremlin is known for so escalation and more violence and bloodshed is highly likely. 

Gonna be intersting to see what standpoint nato partners are going to take. Officially they are still going to condemn the man for all he has done of course but unofficially there could be some silent support. I mean the enemy of my enemy and all that. However for the time being I think nato will just do a lot of observation and watch with a heightened interest to see how everything will unfold.

Edited June 24, 2023 by grouse

[downzy]

Surreal…

https://www.thedailybeast.com/feud-between-moscow-and-wagner-group-turns-to-all-out-war?ref=home

[grouse]

And they are supposedly turning around again and going back to their camps....that's a bit anti climatic to say the least. You march upon moscow get within close range of the city you strike some deal and we're friends again. How does that even work. like what in the actual fuck is going on over there 

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Saw CNN and this guy and his army were marching on Moscow, but who knows? The news also said they didn't enough supplies. I doubt they would get close to Putin even if they got to Moscow.  This whole war is one big mess.

20 minutes ago, grouse said:

And they are These turning around again and going back to their camps....that's a bit anti climatic to say the least. You march upon moscow get within close range of the city you strike some deal and we're friends again. How does that even work. like what in the actual fuck is going on over there 

These guys are mercenaries which means whoever gives them the biggest pay off they will fight for you. It was probably done to get Putin to give them more money. 

The war in Ukraine will never end unless Putin stops it and I doubt he'll do that anytime soon. One big mess.

[grouse]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:47 PM, grouse said:

And they are supposedly turning around again and going back to their camps....that's a bit anti climatic to say the least. You march upon moscow get within close range of the city you strike some deal and we're friends again. How does that even work. like what in the actual fuck is going on over there 

Now it makes sense again, that’s why you don’t half ass a coup against someone who regularly assassinates political opponents.