The "New Album" Thread. Thanks to the long ass thread, I’m going home!

[allwaystired]

3 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

Exactly. The fact is that the labels bankrolled Chinese Democracy for *years*. Eventually, they’re going to want to see some return on their investment. That’s not corporate greed, that’s common sense. If Axl started a Kickstarter for Chinese Democracy and we all contributed, after 10 years with nothing to show for it, we’d all want our money back.

The lack of promotion for Chinese Democracy I can chalk up to a few things: they had already poured so much money into the project and they knew that pouring a ton more into a promotion for a band that, in 2008, was pretty irrelevant was a waste of money. Or the fact that they had to force the album out of Axl’s hands caused a lot of bad blood. Or Axl was simply too difficult and demanding and they were probably like “you know what? Fuck this guy. If he doesn’t want to be cooperative, why bother?”

None of which I can blame on the label.

And, like you said, it’s easier than ever to release music now. And for a band that just had one of the most lucrative tours of all time, any label would be falling over themselves to release music and keep the momentum rolling. It just doesn’t add up.

Absolutely. The marketing/promotion thing will doubtless have had it's budget designed in a well thought out way - i.e. what amount of spending will bring back the most returns, given how much money we've already put into this. 

The reality of the situation was that everyone who wanted to buy CD did, but it wasn't 1991 any more and many fans had moved on or simply didn't like what they heard. I don't think any amount of marketing or promotion would have changed that. 

3 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Probably because of Axl's relationship with David Geffen. That soured a lot when Jimmy Iovine assumed the position and supposedly interfered in CD's production back in early 2000's. I believe there were a lot of egos clashing, but there was still some contractual obligation or just pure hope that Axl would recoup the investment made. Which I think he did with the Dr Pepper deal and the tours. 

Were the label making money with the tour though? I know those 360 deals are fairly popular now, but back then I'm not sure they were a thing were they? 

[Voodoochild]

2 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

I’m not disagreeing with you, but I do want to add on to this conversation:

I notice on this forum that a lot of times we refer to Team Brazil as being strictly Beta and Fernando. Axl is Team Brazil too. It really should be called Team Axl. I read posts that refer to TB as if they’re controlling things and as if Axl is a bystander, ignorant to all of poor choices TB has made. Axl is running the show. It’s not Beta masterminding years of stagnation by whispering in Axl’s ear. These are Axl’s choices.

Exactly. Axl didn't get along with any other management because they kept pushing him to do what normal artists should do - release music, touring, making money. TB is not the reason for the sloth pace of things, they just don't push Axl enough (which is why Axl wanted them, probably). 

[Uncle Bob]

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

4 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

The reality of the situation was that everyone who wanted to buy CD did, but it wasn't 1991 any more and many fans had moved on or simply didn't like what they heard. I don't think any amount of marketing or promotion would have changed that. 

Bingo. If anything, the label really fleeced Best Buy, who bought a million copies or so of the album - many of which had to be sold on clearance.

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

5 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Exactly. Axl didn't get along with any other management because they kept pushing him to do what normal artists should do - release music, touring, making money. TB is not the reason for the sloth pace of things, they just don't push Axl enough (which is why Axl wanted them, probably). 

Yep. And on a certain level, I understand the idea of wanting your management to do what you want them to, but it’s sort of like hiring a football coach and then telling him what plays to call. It’s not gonna work.

[Blackstar]

Fun fact: Coincidentally, on the same night GN'R played in Athens recently, The Sisters of Mercy were playing at a festival somewhere else in the city. That's a band that hasn't released an album of original material since 1990 but has been touring regularly. I've said it before, but I think Andrew Eldritch of The SoM is probably the closest to Axl there is. The only difference is that he has outright stated that although he still likes making music and endlessly tinkering with it, he doesn't like getting in the process of releasing it.

https://www.loudersound.com/features/sisters-of-mercy-i-wanted-to-sound-like-a-disco-run-by-the-borgias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_and_Last_and_Always#Strawberry_sessions

And after watching some videos from their performance in Athens, I found out that there's much worse than Axl in terms of vocal deterioration as well.

[allwaystired]

2 minutes ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

Yep. And on a certain level, I understand the idea of wanting your management to do what you want them to, but it’s sort of like hiring a football coach and then telling him what plays to call. It’s not gonna work.

I don't think it's ever healthy, personally, to surround yourself with people who let you do exactly as you want. You sort of need people to challenge you, call you out sometimes, all that stuff. 

In business though, it's an especially bad idea I think. I remember my Dad saying "when you're in charge of people you can be friendly towards them, but you can't be their friend" which I do agree with. 

I don't really have that much of an issue with TB personally; the very limited contact I've had with them they've been pleasant and polite, but I can't imagine them making any business decisions at all that don't come direct from Axl. 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

7 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

I don't think it's ever healthy, personally, to surround yourself with people who let you do exactly as you want. You sort of need people to challenge you, call you out sometimes, all that stuff. 

 

Certainly not. I understand wanting them to have your desired interests at heart, but you have to let the people you hire do the job you hired them for.

I want my accountant to get me a fat return every year, but I don’t tell him how to calculate the numbers. I want my lawyer to protect my legal interests, but I don’t tell him which argument to make. I want my personal trainer to get me nice and ripped, but I don’t tell him “oh and by the way, I don’t like weight lifting, so find another way.”

As much as I hate to say it, this might be as good as it gets! TB enables Axl’s behavior…but they remain employed, the band is a regularly touring entity, everyone seems to be generally happy (except for fans hoping for new music). Anybody who challenged Axl ended up fired.

My bullshit armchair psychoanalysis is that it’s going to take some real internal work for Axl to loosen the reins a little bit. If *everyone* he hired ended up being an incompetent fool who undermined him…at some point there has to be a moment of self awareness when he realizes the common denominator.

Edited August 10, 2023 by GoodOlJohnnyK

[Jw224]

I remember when I first joined the online fan community in like 2015 and I'd see people talk about TB as if they had Axl on strings or something, lol. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Jw224

[Voodoochild]

32 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

Were the label making money with the tour though? I know those 360 deals are fairly popular now, but back then I'm not sure they were a thing were they? 

Sorry, somehow I missed this. 

I don't know, it's just my speculation. But it just came to my mind now that Merck said that the 2006 tour helped fund the additional recordings or something like that, so maybe you're right.

[allwaystired]

1 minute ago, GoodOlJohnnyK said:

Certainly not. I understand wanting them to have your desired interests at heart, but you have to let the people you hire do the job you hired them for.

I want my accountant to get me a fat return every year, but I don’t tell him how to calculate the numbers. I want my lawyer to protect my legal interests, but I don’t tell him which argument to make. I want my personal trainer to get me nice and ripped, but I don’t tell him “oh and by the way, I don’t like weight lifting, so find another way.”

As much as I hate to say it, this might be as good as it gets! TB enables Axl’s behavior…but they remain employed, the band is a regularly touring entity, everyone seems to be generally happy (except for fans hoping for new music). Anybody who challenged Axl ended up fired.

My bullshit armchair psychoanalysis is that it’s going to take some real internal work for Axl to loosen the reins a little bit.

I don't think it will ever change now. And I'd be happy with it going on as it does, if only they'd loosen up on releasing stuff- not just 'new' but archive stuff too. 

They can carry on touring all they like (I can choose not to go if prices are too high) but I do get very pissed off about not being able to enjoy music from my favourite band, when it would take so little time and effort to make it available. 

1 minute ago, Voodoochild said:

Sorry, somehow I missed this. 

I don't know, it's just my speculation. But it just came to my mind now that Merck said that the 2006 tour helped fund the additional recordings or something like that, so maybe you're right.

Haha, no worries! 

Yeah, I've got no idea about how the finances were working back then. I remember Axl making comments about them "not making any money" when he was on that chat show where he hired the ice cream van, but I think that was much later- around the times of one of the Vegas residencies. 

[Coma16]

5 minutes ago, Jw224 said:

I remember when I first joined the online fan community in like 2015 and I'd see people talk about TB as if they had Axl on strings or something, lol. 

They restricted his internet access after 2011. Seems he has it back tho.

[Jw224]

Just now, Coma16 said:

They restricted his internet access after 2011.

Is this true? Lol. 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

2 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

I don't know, it's just my speculation. But it just came to my mind now that Merck said that the 2006 tour helped fund the additional recordings or something like that, so maybe you're right.

Didn’t the label cut Axl off after a while? I can’t recall exactly, but I seem to remember them pulling their funding at a certain point. I think Merck’s comments were in reference to Axl having to tour to earn the income to fund the last few years of CD.

[SlashisGOD]

Yes the label cut Axl off because of too much wasted money on the CD project. I believe it was around 2005 or 6. 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

17 minutes ago, Jw224 said:

I remember when I first joined the online fan community in like 2015 and I'd see people talk about TB as if they had Axl on strings or something, lol. 

Yup.

It kind of reminds me of when people blame Bob Rock for Metallica moving away from thrash on The Black Album. He didn’t write the songs, he just tried to make them sound good. He didn’t show up and tell James and Lars what to do - he just did what they asked him to: produce a great sounding album with a solid low end and groove. The songs, however, were theirs. The direction was theirs. If they weren’t happy with the final product, they wouldn’t have worked with him for the next 13 years.

The same goes for Axl. He’s notoriously one of the most controlling, demanding, volatile rock stars of all time…but *Beta* tells him what to do? It doesn’t line up.

I do have some sympathy for him, though, because Beta and Fernando - in addition to being his employees - are also his friends and makeshift little family. He seems to have genuine love for them, which probably makes it hard for *Axl* to be hard on *them.*

If we think about it, he probably enables them just as much as they enable him.

Edited August 10, 2023 by GoodOlJohnnyK

[Blackstar]

6 hours ago, Jw224 said:

I remember when I first joined the online fan community in like 2015 and I'd see people talk about TB as if they had Axl on strings or something, lol. 

Yeah, I joined in 2016 and those comments were one of the things that stroke me, although, other than that, the forum was in excitement mode because of the reunion.

I think that many fans' perception of TB as villainous puppeteers who manipulate Axl has been shaped, to an extent, by what Marc Canter and some other people (formerly) around Axl/the band have said about them. That's where the tales about TB having control of Axl's computer etc mainly come from, as well as about them fueling Axl's hatred towards Slash during the NuGnR era.  I don't know if Marc really believed those things or he just didn't want to put the blame on Axl, as he was trying to reach out to him and rekindle their relationship.

I believe that in reality the main power that Beta and TB have due to their position is that anyone outside the inner circle has to go through them in order to talk to Axl - they've been sort of the "gatekeepers". And at one point people who used to be able to have access to Axl directly, like Marc or Robert John, suddenly found themselves to have to deal with Beta. But that's also something Axl has allowed to happen, and TB have not been the first to have that role in the history of the band - Doug Goldstein had it, too.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Blackstar

[ChristianGNR]

I don’t get the delay thing from GNR side because, as we already know from the last 20 years, they won’t do anything to promote it.

it’s not necessary to be a rocket scientist to release old songs with zero promotion.

[melonart]

Well, I’m happy if GNR gets new music out someday, but I won’t wait it eagerly. 
 

For all who are kind of demanding new music I have one question: How much have you spent on music lately?

 

I still buy music, but most people want their music free and I completely understand if the band doesn’t see a point in releasing stuff.

[El Guapo]

16 minutes ago, melonart said:

Well, I’m happy if GNR gets new music out someday, but I won’t wait it eagerly. 
 

For all who are kind of demanding new music I have one question: How much have you spent on music lately?

 

I still buy music, but most people want their music free and I completely understand if the band doesn’t see a point in releasing stuff.

Musicians want to create and share music.

[Steff_66]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Fun fact: Coincidentally, on the same night GN'R played in Athens recently, The Sisters of Mercy were playing at a festival somewhere else in the city. That's a band that hasn't released an album of original material since 1990 but has been touring regularly. I've said it before, but I think Andrew Eldritch of The SoM is probably the closest to Axl there is. The only difference is that he has outright stated that although he still likes making music and endlessly tinkering with it, he doesn't like getting in the process of releasing it.

https://www.loudersound.com/features/sisters-of-mercy-i-wanted-to-sound-like-a-disco-run-by-the-borgias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_and_Last_and_Always#Strawberry_sessions

And after watching some videos from their performance in Athens, I found out that there's much worse than Axl in terms of vocal deterioration as well.

I saw The Sisters of Mercy in '06 (still sounded pretty good) and they played 8 new songs! None of them got released. 10 years later Eldritch said if Donald Trump gets elected that's reason enough for him to finally put out an album.  Still no album.

So, Axl definitely isnt' the worst.

[Lelex95]

55 minutes ago, melonart said:

Well, I’m happy if GNR gets new music out someday, but I won’t wait it eagerly. 
 

For all who are kind of demanding new music I have one question: How much have you spent on music lately?

 

I still buy music, but most people want their music free and I completely understand if the band doesn’t see a point in releasing stuff.

A lot! 

I collect LPs as well as paying for different music streaming services. 

What does that matter? 

They keep putting out super expensive boxes and touring around the world and some people are fed up to pay for the same old shit over and over 

[rumandraisin]

3 hours ago, allwaystired said:

There is absolutely no way that if GNR wanted a new album out they couldn't get it released, on their terms, with any label they chose to. 

When you think of some of the minority interest music that gets released there's no way labels wouldn't be climbing over themselves to release music from a band like GNR, who, no matter what quality the album is, will sell more albums than 80 or 90 per cent of the other acts they have on their roster. 

And let's face it, they could just go in-house and do it themselves if they really wanted to. As many other big (and small) acts do. 

I'd say it's one of the biggest nonsenses in GNR land that the record labels are the problem. They want to make money, so holding up or stopping releases from a big band would make absolutely zero sense. 

I'm always surprised how little I see the acknowledgement here of Axl just simply not wanting to release music? After the shitstorm he went through for Chinese who can blame him. It just doesn't interest him clearly. 

[GoodOlJohnnyK]

9 minutes ago, rumandraisin said:

I'm always surprised how little I see the acknowledgement here of Axl just simply not wanting to release music?

Oh I say this all the time. I just don’t think he feels creative anymore. The muse has left him, in my opinion. He clearly still loves performing and looks like he’s having a great time playing the hits. But I don’t think he’s too interested in sitting down with the band and starting from scratch.

 

11 minutes ago, rumandraisin said:

After the shitstorm he went through for Chinese who can blame him.

Eh, I think he’s to blame for most of that shitstorm, as stated in the posts preceding this one.

[melonart]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

Musicians want to create and share music.

Yes, and architects want to draw buildings, but few make it free. 
 

Guns are not amateurs anymore.