THE GENERAL - MONSTERS - Official Discussion Thread. NO LINKS OR ASKING FOR LINKS

[DannyVinyard]

11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

With all that, and most importantly if they were not a hybrid of "new" band and and AFD cover band, they would have done better than they eventually did. But they would have never had the impact and success the original band had, because of the name. Axl would have had a bigger chance to succeed under another moniker (I'm not saying as a solo project because I don't want to start another debate on that in this thread), provided, of course, that he didn't fuck it up too hard.

I never said they would have been as successful as 87-93, however, they would have done much, much better had Axl not skipped the Philly 2002 concert, which triggered the tour being cancelled, Buckethead leaving, and CD delayed indefinitely. Axl Rose knows how to promote albums and how to generate great interest. Interviews, choosing singles,  music videos, touring, etc. Guns N' Roses or Axl Rose solo moniker makes no difference here. Axl derailed this band entirely by no showing Philly 2002, period. 

[©GnrPersia]

1 minute ago, WhazUp said:

To be fair, even if you may disagree with this, adding a guitar tone and presence to music from the nuGNR era, does change the overall sound.  And since for many people a lot of GNR's whole thing is Slash on guitar, it makes sense that people would be more excited hearing Axl's tunes with more of the sounds and guitar tones of the guy from 1987-1993 on them

So I don't think it is ridiculous at all, all you need is "Monsters" to hear the results.  Some great Slash licks that blend his tenure in classic GNR to Axl's songwriting to make it more "GNR feeling" to most people

Agree or disagree, I think that point of view should at the very least be respected - no matter what "classic GNR purists" people you have argued with in the past regarding your own preferences

I can completely understand the point you're making. I just think it's not necessary to ridicule Buckethead for his work on CD songs. It's unfair. But that's me.

[WhazUp]

6 minutes ago, ©GnrPersia said:

I can completely understand the point you're making. I just think it's not necessary to ridicule Buckethead for his work on CD songs. It's unfair. But that's me.

I like Buckethead too, and Finck and honestly all the guys from that time period and think they all have stuff to offer musically and artistically to any projects they are a part of so I totally get the Bucket love

I think it is only natural that Slash be the favored guy by most, the band got famous in part due to his licks and solos just as much as Axl's voice and so hearing that sound again in GNR feels like home for many of us

Edited October 30, 2023 by WhazUp

[grogmug]

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, but can we get these songs without the effects? This is some of the best “outbursts” I’ve ever heard out of Axl, especially after he says “the pain just won’t stop” in the General. These are definitely growers, but once they grow, they are absolute bangers. I love that this song is on the setlist, I can still see him pulling this off live, especially since I know he will pour his heart and soul into it once he sings it for the first time. 

[Slugworth]

33 minutes ago, DannyVinyard said:

with heavy promotion, interviews, epic music videos for their first 3 or 4 singles,

Less than zero signs there would've been heavy promotion, interviews,  or epic music videos.

 

 

34 minutes ago, DannyVinyard said:

Thank God we got a non-stop cash grab tour of the oldies with Slash and Duff. I'm so grateful.

You should be grateful. Without them coming back you would've got nothing. New GNR was dead at that point and had he attempted to restart it, you would've been seeing them in bowling alleys and county fairs. You also wouldn't have got CD II. That was dead in the water.

[metalavenger99]

Unfortunately i doubt that we are gonna hear Axl singing "Daddy don't" live on stage, i mean i do wish they play it, just for the sake of it, i guess.

But if the debut was imminent, at this point we should've already gotten the several weeks of promising sound checks followed by absolutely nothing like we are already used to, until finally the song gets played live, but the vinyl is gonna be released on December, and there is still no sign that this is even going to be out on streaming, at least for now. 

[WhazUp]

58 minutes ago, DannyVinyard said:

Uh, in your opinion, they wouldn't have. They already had a slew of new songs developed, or in process. Imagine Chinese Democracy dropping in 2003 and GNR continuing the tour, with heavy promotion, interviews, epic music videos for their first 3 or 4 singles, and I'm pretty sure Axl Rose wouldn't have chosen the title track as the first single. Chinese Democracy was forced out in 2008 by the record company, which was way late, included zero promotion from Axl Rose and GNR, a dud of a first single, a failure to release TWAT (by far the best song on CD) as a single, and the album STILL went on to sell 1 million copies in the US. Think of how many more it would have sold in 2003 with proper promotion as well as the CD platform being more relevant then. NuGNR could have not only taken the world by storm, but they could have saved rock music. 

I personally am of the mind that if Chinese Democracy was destined to "save rock music" it would have found a way to.  It isn't like there wasn't a TON of publicity around the album because of its reputation and infamy - by 2003 and certainly still in 2008

The thing with Chinese, while it may have great stuff on it, even the catchier hooks on the album IMHO were never destined to be mainstream huge blockbuster hits.  Nothing wrong with that, art doesn't have to be made for commercial viability, but I am of the mind that nuGNR would have ended up with the same result, no matter what promotional stuff they did in the lead up to Chinese. 

People wanted hard rock, they wanted Slash's guitar riffs and leads, and they wanted Axl to sound like the madman high pitched demon they last heard he was like in the 90s and virtually none of that was present

 

Don't get me wrong I love the Chinese era myself, but there definitely is a reason why GNR went back to stadiums/arenas after Slash rejoined and it isn't because CD never got proper promotion

Edited October 30, 2023 by WhazUp

[DannyVinyard]

4 minutes ago, Slugworth said:

Less than zero signs there would've been heavy promotion, interviews,  or epic music videos.

 

 

You should be grateful. Without them coming back you would've got nothing. New GNR was dead at that point and had he attempted to restart it, you would've been seeing them in bowling alleys and county fairs. You also wouldn't have got CD II. That was dead in the water.

Zero signs? Huh? We know he made a huge effort to promote AFD and UYI. Interviews, epic music videos, touring. Why would he have not done the same for Chinese Democracy. Obviously, he did not in 2008 because the album was forced out by the record company. 

Axl was on the cusp of releasing CD II before the reunion. The reunion derailed that and the reunion has done zero for me, personally. I never went to any of the shows and I saw it for what it was before it started, a cash grab tour and another excuse to delay new music. You are right though, NuGNR was dead, all thanks to Axl no showing in Philly, failing to release the album again in 2006 (which triggered Finck to quit), and then Axl losing his voice and looks 2011 and onward. The band had significantly downgraded in talent with Bumblefoot, Ashba, and Frank not being anywhere close to their predecessors in terms of talent and creativity, while Axl was nowhere close to what he was in 2002 and 2006. 

[Tom2112]

30 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

To be fair, even if you may disagree with this, adding a guitar tone and presence to music from the nuGNR era, does change the overall sound.  And since for many people a lot of GNR's whole thing is Slash on guitar, it makes sense that people would be more excited hearing Axl's songwriting with more of the sounds and guitar tones of the guy from 1987-1993 on them

So I don't think it is ridiculous at all, all you need is "Monsters" to hear the results.  Some great Slash licks that blend his tenure in classic GNR to Axl's songwriting to make it more "GNR feeling" to most people

Agree or disagree, I think that point of view should at the very least be respected - no matter what "classic GNR purists" people you have argued with in the past regarding your own preferences

 

Well it depends on the song. H\For example he did sweet FA to Perhaps. But end of the day, his guitar on a song is one thing, but the song is already formed and written BY the people these people hate, so there is an alternative reality for a lot of people... Including Slash and Duff for thinking they deserve writing credits for those songs.

[AxlRoseCDII]

It’s funny to me so many people believe it’s not Slash on these songs. I was unsure at first but after many listens and trusting opinions it has to be. Which is impressive in its own way to me. In my opinion, this is really the first Axl and Slash magic since the 90’s. I can tell Slash actually really cared and felt passion on this song which I didn’t really feel on Perhaps or the other NITL songs even if I still love all 3.

[Free Bird]

4 hours ago, kitstuai said:

Why theorising about things that can't happen, we all know The General and Monsters is 1 song

We all know Slash is all over the tracks but you still question this. How those two tracks are gonna be released is still the big mystery. We have some hints but nothing that proofs the final outcome. 

[WhazUp]

19 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Well it depends on the song. H\For example he did sweet FA to Perhaps. But end of the day, his guitar on a song is one thing, but the song is already formed and written BY the people these people hate, so there is an alternative reality for a lot of people... Including Slash and Duff for thinking they deserve writing credits for those songs.

I can't speak for other people's thoughts, but for myself I really have enjoyed most, if not all, of Slash's additions so far (the most controversial being I like his Perhaps solo).  So for me, regardless of who originally crafted the song's basic ideas first, I think Slash's presence gives the material a sound that I have missed for quite some time in GNR land

Slash and the AFD lineup "GNR-ified" the previous existing Hollywood Rose material not all of them were a part of writing initially.  It's So Easy was originally a West Arkeen open E tuning acoustic tune before Slash did his thing with it.  So for me, taking songs Axl still wants to work on that he did with other writers, and Slash-ifiying it, is a great blend of some old with some new (or rather, "new" as of 2002 lol).  And perhaps his additions adds some of that "classic GNR legitimacy" to it in the eyes of some

Edited October 30, 2023 by WhazUp

[Free Bird]

4 hours ago, Stro said:

I disagree. It doesn't sound like anything Slash has produced since VR. It certainly doesn't sound anything like what Slash has done with any CD-era material live or studio released. The bass also doesn't sound like Duff note selection and fill wise. This leads me to believe these tracks that were leaked are pre-reunion demos as something of a spite or fuck you to the actual release getting delayed. 

I guess I'll be proven wrong or right when the actual record drops, but the guitar and bass work plus the very amateur mixing makes me think what got leaked are actually pre-Bumble demos that have probably been circulating with the hoarders for years.

You guys have no idea what you talking about. Listening to this guitar and say that's not Slash is like listening to the vocals of Paradise City and claim that's not Axl. 

Either you have no idea or you're just trolling.

[Blackstar]

32 minutes ago, DannyVinyard said:

Axl was on the cusp of releasing CD II before the reunion. The reunion derailed that and the reunion has done zero for me, personally. I never went to any of the shows and I saw it for what it was before it started, a cash grab tour and another excuse to delay new music. You are right though, NuGNR was dead, all thanks to Axl no showing in Philly, failing to release the album again in 2006 (which triggered Finck to quit), and then Axl losing his voice and looks 2011 and onward. The band had significantly downgraded in talent with Bumblefoot, Ashba, and Frank not being anywhere close to their predecessors in terms of talent and creativity, while Axl was nowhere close to what he was in 2002 and 2006. 

Axl was also in the cusp of releasing CD in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2006, but the album was eventually released in 2008 (and, according to Tommy Stinson, Iovine grabbed it from Axl's hands, so if it weren't for that it would have probably have been released a year later).

And since he didn't release CD2 until 2014, there's no guarantee that it would have happened in 2015 or 2016 if it weren't for the reunion. The odds for that to happen were the same as before.

These songs should have been released when they were recorded featuring the musicians who co-wrote and played on them. It's not Slash's fault that they weren't. So the way things turned out, NuGnR fans should thank Slash and be grateful for the threeunion instead of complaining about it, because otherwise we probably wouldn't have gotten these songs yet.

The threeunion may be a "nostalgia cash grab" touring endlessly, but at least the songs that comprise the vast majority of the setlist are played by some of the people who wrote tehm, and we got some new music (even if it's rehashed CD era songs), plus two archival releases. Vs. the nostalgia touring and zero releases of the pre-reunion NuGnR lineup.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Blackstar

[Georgina Arriaga]

16 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Axl was also in the cusp of releasing CD in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2006, but the album was eventually released in 2008 (and, according to Tommy Stinson, Iovine grabbed it from Axl's hands, so if it weren't for that it would have probably have been released a year later).

And since he didn't release CD2 until 2014, there's no guarantee that it would have happened in 2015 or 2016 if it weren't for the reunion. The odds for that to happen were the same as before.

These songs should have been released when they were recorded featuring the musicians who co-wrote and played on them. It's not Slash's fault that they weren't. So the way things turned out, NuGnR fans should thank Slash and be grateful for the threeunion instead of complaining about it, because otherwise we probably wouldn't have gotten these songs yet.

The threeunion may be a "nostalgia cash grab" touring endlessly, but at least the songs that comprise the vast majority of the setlist are played by some of the people who wrote tehm, and we got some new music (even if it's rehashed CD era songs), plus two archival releases. Vs. the nostalgia touring and zero releases of the pre-reunion NuGnR lineup.

Bravo!!!!

[GnR Chris]

Guys, I ate a bunch of weed and drank a bunch of beer and played “The General and Monsters” approximately 100 times in a row. Chef’s kiss. Absolutely superb. The chorus in “The General” and the end are just so fucking good.

My buddy randomly texted me today saying, “Bro, the interlude in ‘Rocket Queen’ turns me into such an emotional little bitch . And I love it .”

Since I was in the middle of my “General and Monsters” binge, I sent the songs to him without any backstory whatsoever. I just said, “Hey, these GNR songs leaked this weekend.”
 

He said this of “The General” … “What the fuck. Bro, that heavy as fuck chorus. That’s gotta be the heaviest song they’ve ever done. It’s so dark.”

His response to “Monsters” … “That three-min mark where he goes nuts is sweet.”

 

I told my friend I came several times listening to these songs. Then we started randomly talking about Manowar. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by GnR Chris

[DownUnderScott]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:25 PM, WhazUp said:

I dunno, replace the electronic drums on Monsters with Matt Sorum and that could easily be a VR track with Scott singing the lower parts.  I don't think it is hard to imagine the concept that Slash has matured since he left GNR in '96 and is open to stuff.  Its still heavy drop D rock music - it isn't like this is genre hopping that much, you know?

Even The General, it has more electronic drums than something Slash would do solo but the song itself is still basically just a rock song with lots of distorted vocal effects and sitar samples

That’s probably my point, effects, samples, it all sounds like computer music,  not a band effort. But that’s Axl for the past 25 years. 
 

Interesting you mention VR, I totally take your point that it is a bit more similar. And I really liked VR and hearing Slash getting down with some heavier guitars. 

[DownUnderScott]

On 10/29/2023 at 11:16 AM, AxlRoseCDII said:

I disagree. Slash loves creepy, unbridled horror shit. He may like Monsters, The General and even Absurd more than you think.

Might as well add My World to that 😁

[rumandraisin]

3 hours ago, DannyVinyard said:

Uh, in your opinion, they wouldn't have. They already had a slew of new songs developed, or in process. Imagine Chinese Democracy dropping in 2003 and GNR continuing the tour, with heavy promotion, interviews, epic music videos for their first 3 or 4 singles, and I'm pretty sure Axl Rose wouldn't have chosen the title track as the first single. Chinese Democracy was forced out in 2008 by the record company, which was way late, included zero promotion from Axl Rose and GNR, a dud of a first single, a failure to release TWAT (by far the best song on CD) as a single, and the album STILL went on to sell 1 million copies in the US. Think of how many more it would have sold in 2003 with proper promotion as well as the CD platform being more relevant then. NuGNR could have not only taken the world by storm, but they could have saved rock music. 

They would've had a follow up maybe two years later as well. I think the lead single might have been Madagascar. 

Bucket had probably added his extended parts to CD, IRS, Twat etc by then. I doubt he ever worked with them again once the tour ended, despite his exit not being announced until 2004. So we could have the longer versions with Buckets improvements but before all the life was knocked out of these songs and the bass completely lost. Essentially the great 2006/7 leaks. 

Then a darker CD2 in like 2004 if they kept up the momentum. 

But then what happens from here. Wound the trajectory still end up the same, bucket would have left eventually. Brain too. They would end up in smaller venues and a reunion happens around the same time. But we'd have had at least two excellent albums and better versions of cd1 then we ended up getting. 

[rumandraisin]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

That doesn't mean that their parts would have been removed. Axl kept most of Buckethead's parts on CD, although he had left in 2003. Also all Bumblefoot's recordings on CD material took place in 2006 and 2007, and it doesn't seem that he did anything afterwards. Ashba doesn't seem to have recorded on CD material at all.

I think that's quite important to remember. After Frank and bumble added their parts in late 2006 and Axl did that vocal session in Jan 2007 it sounds like there was no further recording until Axl and Pitman were in the studio in 2015 mixing. 

And then likely nothing until Slash and Duff did their parts on the material until 2019 or 2020, I forget. 

Unless you go with the "Axl has been recording vocals every year" thing some people believe, there really has been so little time spent in the studio since 2006 and certainly no new song started since Bucket left. Making Scraped, General and Monsters some of the newest Guns songs probably started late 2001/2. 

[timoteo]

This is gonna sound dramatic but I feel a sense of closure with these songs. I know they aren’t officially out yet but it’s definitely not something I’d ever hear. 

[D..]

6 hours ago, metalavenger99 said:

This thing about the song names is fucking with my mind. And yes i have a lot of free time now. 

We've had this titles: Leave Me Alone, Soul Monster, Monstrocity(?), Elvis Presley and the Monster of Soul, Me & My Elvis, and now Monsters.

It was believed that: Me & My Elvis = Elvis Presley and the Monster of Soul = Soul Monster. (And we know that the working title was Leave me Alone at an early point).

Now it turns out that the song called "Elvis Presley and the Monster of Soul" which Axl confirmed to be Soul monster, is different than "Me and My Elvis" found on the storage leaks. Wtf are the odds of that.

But whatever, now we know, that Soul Monster is a part of The General, or that it has been merged with The General or is the successor of it. But when did that happen?

The General+Soul Monster = As epic as Estranged? For me they are up there but anyways, at least they are similar in length. Is there any chance that these two were combined before Bach said what he said? Otherwise why would he say it? (Yeah he is kind of a meme now because according to him "Sorry sounded like doom metal" but go to Youtube and listen to Sorry without vocals, so i personally don't think he is that stupid). 

I know there is a huge debate about wether the CD2 list is real or not, so i'm not gonna take "Monstrocity" into account.

But what's the consensus now about Me&My Elvis? My bet is that someone mislabeled it on the disc that Zutaut kept for him...shame, i loved that name for that song even though we know nothing about the lyrics lol. 

Wait but this predates Beltrami's work... so maybe Me and My Elvis evolved into Leave me Alone but then Axl decided to use the old name back but adding "Soul". So finally, "Monsters" could have already existed at the same time as the rest of the Village demos, but as a rough idea, without the orchestration, and without vocals, and some dumbass mislabeled the completely unrelated instrumental we have on the village tapes as this.

Am i forgetting any important facts?

It basically doesn't matter anymore but this kind of speculation is worth a solid 50% of being a fan of this band lol

 

 

We don't know anything for sure, we need confirmation from the composers involved.

Yes, there's an important fact your forget: the Vienna 2010 phone clip. It was said to be "The General" back then, and it has been believed to be until those leaks on friday. Evader worked on this phone clip to recreate what it may sound like in better quality and it was believed to be "The General". But it turns out this phone clip & Evader's recreation was this "Monsters" song.

Which must mean "Monsters" is part of The General. "Monsters" may even have been titled "The General" at some point, maybe the first part didn't exist at some point, or they were both called The General. The credits people found last week also seem to confirm "The General and Monsters" is a single song and not two separate songs. Or two songs in the same track, at the very least.

"Soul Monster" was never said to be linked to "The General". But as several people said, Marco Beltrami only worked on a few songs, the biggest ones being The General, Soul Monster, and Seven. So it could be The General & Soul Monster already shared the same orchestration back then, and that they went in pair, or were fused at some later stage. Or maybe we've never heard Soul Monster, or maybe we've heard Soul Monster in the form of "Me & My Elvis" before Beltrami's input. Maybe Monsters is just part of The General and doesn't have another name.

Only thing I was positive was that Slash was playing on those leaks (at least on Monsters), but Evader not wanting to gamble on this makes me hesitate. He has by far the best ears on this forum, so if he isn't sure, I can't be 100% sure. I had also tried to cover the phone clip on my end with my piano, turns out I was way off. Can't wait for the vinyl, we'll be able to confirm Slash & Duff on those leaks, at least.

I also wonder if something is missing from those leaks. If those two songs form a single song, there's currently no way to fuse them together. Only way I found was putting Monsters before The General (and not the other way around) and linking the songs with one of the last guitar notes from The General, but it doesn't completely work. I wonder if some part of the orchestra is missing after The General's ending.

Edit: the hell with it, I sent a mail to Marco Beltrami, I hope he will answer.

Edited October 30, 2023 by D..

[Free Bird]

3 hours ago, ©GnrPersia said:

I'm in no way defending Axl, his stupid management or how he had handled his band circa 98-2014.

Quiet the opposite I'm a harsh critique of him in this case. He's a jackass, messy, lazy and a hell of a procrastinator. good?

I'm just saying it's ridiculous that the majority of the AFD/Reunion fans keep bashing the NuGnr band while at the same time being excited about the music that is being released from that era.

How is it difficult to understand that somebody might not agree with the overall direction the band took vs enjoying some tracks of this era. I can only speak for me and despite that I like TG/Monsters, they still sound sonehow weird. But these are not the only songs I enjoy. Better, Sorry, TWAT ... all excellent songs... I always admited that. But I still wish they'll do something more traditional sounding. No reason to think you can't stay true to your roots and still create epic tracks

[Cosmo]

I loved both The General and Monsters. Especially Monsters, but the drums sound so digital in the beginning of The General. I don't know why not put organic drums with more character to them. Count using the hi-hats, snare and bass drum like a normal human would. To me, it seems like "real drums" only come in for the chorus. The bass on that same intro is really awkward too. Kinda like an AC/DC bass line. Same thing with the drums, up until the chorus. But this time I think it fits the song a lot more. Still, really enjoying these songs.

 

[Chris1989]

I played monsters over the speaker system at school, and the children were dancing in the hallways. It was sooo cool.