The General & Monsters: questions still unanswered

[Twinaleblood]

Some of these topics are also being discussed in The General & Monsters sticky thread, but I decided to start a new thread to recap and discuss what's still unknown about these songs and their release/leak, open for theories/conspiracy theories/speculation (while any comments regarding the music itself can be left for the other thread).

If mods feel this is pointless, feel free to lock this and we'll move the discussion to the main thread.

1. Why The General and Monsters were registered together, as far as copyright goes?

They seem to be written by the same team of collaborators. Theoretically speaking, "merging" them as a single entry would mean sharing royalties for one song rather than two, but then again even Axl, Slash and Duff would get money for just one song in that case, so it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps there is some legal reason we are missing.

Someone saw them as a "mini suite", but besides similar orchestral work by Beltrami they don't seem to have much in common either musically (different keys etc) or lyrically. 

The hidden track theory: theoretically, it could be. Then again, why would such an interesting song, in hindsight with even more potential than The General, should be released just as a hidden track? Furthermore, if this was true and the hidden track was removed from the vinyl for sound quality reasons, it could have been left for the cd release, which had no space constraints. As we know, this didn't happen either.

Anything else?

2. Who leaked the songs and why did they leak together?

It's probably the first time we get leaks and nothing is known about the source.

One theory I read more than once mentions a generous hoarder who wanted to make the fans happy and avenge the botched official release. This doesn't add up. For example, the mixes include Slash and Duff. After the whole locker leaks mess, do you think GNR would let slip new mixes out? After all, they managed to keep stuff like The General unheard for 20+ years, it's not that if something exists it must necessarily leak (and because of this it's fairly safe to assume no hoarder had heard the real General before, otherwise someone would have at least said "this is not The General" in regards to the cell phone clip from the after show party).

The other theory is that the leak came from the GNR camp themselves. Yes, they handled the botched release poorly, to say the least, but if they really wanted to throw us a bone, why don't simply release the song digitally and just move the release date for the physical version? Afraid people would cancel preorders after hearing the song? Sounds far fetched, given that the band eventually played it live before its release.

In hindsight, though, there is something to consider.

Let's say that, after the botched release and the shitstorm online, the camp decided to actually release The General on digital platforms back then in late October. Can you imagine people's reaction to the "real" The General in that context, without hearing Monsters too?

It's then fair to assume that the songs were leaked by someone who knew very well fans thought Monsters was The General and they might have been leaked together to "clarify" this. This also disproves the theory that the leaks might come from sound engineers or people working in the studios where the band tested the mixes. These are professionals: would they leak stuff, especially on a fan forum? I don't think they know or care that a few hundred hardcore fans online mistakenly assumed that the song Monsters was thought to be The General because of an ambiguous twitter post from 2010 (or whichever the year was) and a crappy cellphone recording. 

Feel free to add anything else that I might have overlooked.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Twinaleblood

[Dummy]

Is monsters soul monster

 

Probably yes

[TrixAreForKids]

5 hours ago, Twinaleblood said:

Some of these topics are also being discussed in The General & Monsters sticky thread, but I decided to start a new thread to recap and discuss what's still unknown about these songs and their release/leak, open for theories/conspiracy theories/speculation (while any comments regarding the music itself can be left for the other thread).

If mods feel this is pointless, feel free to lock this and we'll move the discussion to the main thread.

1. Why The General and Monsters were registered together, as far as copyright goes?

They seem to be written by the same team of collaborators. Theoretically speaking, "merging" them as a single entry would mean sharing royalties for one song rather than two, but then again even Axl, Slash and Duff would get money for just one song in that case, so it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps there is some legal reason we are missing.

Someone saw them as a "mini suite", but besides similar orchestral work by Beltrami they don't seem to have much in common either musically (different keys etc) or lyrically. 

The hidden track theory: theoretically, it could be. Then again, why would such an interesting song, in hindsight with even more potential than The General, should be released just as a hidden track? Furthermore, if this was true and the hidden track was removed from the vinyl for sound quality reasons, it could have been left for the cd release, which had no space constraints. As we know, this didn't happen either.

Anything else?

2. Who leaked the songs and why did they leak together?

It's probably the first time we get leaks and nothing is known about the source.

One theory I read more than once mentions a generous hoarder who wanted to make the fans happy and avenge the botched official release. This doesn't add up. For example, the mixes include Slash and Duff. After the whole locker leaks mess, do you think GNR would let slip new mixes out? After all, they managed to keep stuff like The General unheard for 20+ years, it's not that if something exists it must necessarily leak (and because of this it's fairly safe to assume no hoarder had heard the real General before, otherwise someone would have at least said "this is not The General" in regards to the cell phone clip from the after show party).

The other theory is that the leak came from the GNR camp themselves. Yes, they handled the botched release poorly, to say the least, but if they really wanted to throw us a bone, why don't simply release the song digitally and just move the release date for the physical version? Afraid people would cancel preorders after hearing the song? Sounds far fetched, given that the band eventually played it live before its release.

In hindsight, though, there is something to consider.

Let's say that, after the botched release and the shitstorm online, the camp decided to actually release The General on digital platforms back then in late October. Can you imagine people's reaction to the "real" The General in that context, without hearing Monsters too?

It's then fair to assume that the songs were leaked by someone who knew very well fans thought Monsters was The General and they might have been leaked together to "clarify" this. This also disproves the theory that the leaks might come from sound engineers or people working in the studios where the band tested the mixes. These are professionals: would they leak stuff, especially on a fan forum? I don't think they know or care that a few hundred hardcore fans online mistakenly assumed that the song Monsters was thought to be The General because of an ambiguous twitter post from 2010 (or whichever the year was) and a crappy cellphone recording. 

Feel free to add anything else that I might have overlooked.

Something tells me there are a lot more “unreleased/unheard” stuff circulating, just not for our ears .

[BangoSkank]

I was also wondering who leaked them and why. MSL has been out of the game awhile, right?

[ObsessionofVanity]

31 minutes ago, BangoSkank said:

I was also wondering who leaked them and why. MSL has been out of the game awhile, right?

Rumor has it if you say his name three times he is suddenly compelled to put 10k in escrow and doesn't know why.

[Jwalker19]

Is it "my only regret is that I never took the time to forget" or "forgive?"

[ShadowOfTheWave]

I'm wondering what the hell is going on in the original Monsters leak (Vienna 2010 cellphone clip) right before the solo. It seems like most of the music stops and it's just actual singing the chorus over the drums and maybe some keyboards. I wish whatever that was had made it to the Slash version because I've always been curious about it.

[Sweersa]

7 minutes ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

I'm wondering what the hell is going on in the original Monsters leak (Vienna 2010 cellphone clip) right before the solo. It seems like most of the music stops and it's just actual singing the chorus over the drums and maybe some keyboards. I wish whatever that was had made it to the Slash version because I've always been curious about it.

I've wondered about this too. The song breaks down in the 2010 version, you hear orchestra, then Axl doing the repeated "oooo oooo" (which are backing vocals on the leak) high in the mix on the 2010 version, you can clearly also hear a Bucket/Robin guitar kicks in, not sure if it's a solo or the melody of the song with that guitar lead. I need to listen to it again to see if the guitar is before or after the "oooo oooo" bits, but I think the guitars pick up again after Axl's bridge. The arrangement of the song was clearly changed from then to the leak. 

[Sweersa]

18 hours ago, Jwalker19 said:

Is it "my only regret is that I never took the time to forget" or "forgive?"

Forget makes more sense because it rhymes with regret. Didn't we get official lyrics for The General yet? I thought it was confirmed there. 

[WhazUp]

Regarding why Monsters was leaked alongside The General, not that I think they are the same song like the way Rocket Queen's two sections are but I do still have a theory of them being linked in some way

Like, maybe they were originally side-by-side on the followup to CD or something and were meant to be played one after the other.  Both have Beltrami orchestration and you can easily interpret the lyrics to Monsters as some anger and then closure to The General

 

[JAxlMorrison]

12 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Regarding why Monsters was leaked alongside The General, not that I think they are the same song like the way Rocket Queen's two sections are but I do still have a theory of them being linked in some way

Like, maybe they were originally side-by-side on the followup to CD or something and were meant to be played one after the other.  Both have Beltrami orchestration and you can easily interpret the lyrics to Monsters as some anger and then closure to The General

 

I’d agree. The Beltrami work sounds similar (not sure if it’s part of the same?) but to me that makes it clear the two are related in some way. As one song? Ok obviously not at this point, but would monsters follow it on a hypothetical record? The Perhaps 8 Ball says “signs point to yes.”

[Sweersa]

The General and Monsters do compliment one another well. The General sets up the field, and at the very least, is interesting. Then Monsters goes in for the kill and is a pretty good song. Monsters also sounds a little quieter than The General when playing back to back on the CD, so I wonder if it was mixed/mastered differently from The General. Let's hope the same folks who mixed and mastered Perhaps did Monsters too, but I doubt we are that lucky. 

[Jwalker19]

9 hours ago, Sweersa said:

Forget makes more sense because it rhymes with regret. Didn't we get official lyrics for The General yet? I thought it was confirmed there. 

Solid point! I should have realized "regret" came first!

[CAFC Nick]

15 hours ago, Sweersa said:

Forget makes more sense because it rhymes with regret. Didn't we get official lyrics for The General yet? I thought it was confirmed there. 

According to Apple Music it’s ‘forget’ - makes sense.

[luciusfunk]

18 hours ago, Sweersa said:

Forget makes more sense because it rhymes with regret. Didn't we get official lyrics for The General yet? I thought it was confirmed there. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by luciusfunk

[Coma16]

21 hours ago, WhazUp said:

Regarding why Monsters was leaked alongside The General, not that I think they are the same song like the way Rocket Queen's two sections are but I do still have a theory of them being linked in some way

Like, maybe they were originally side-by-side on the followup to CD or something and were meant to be played one after the other.  Both have Beltrami orchestration and you can easily interpret the lyrics to Monsters as some anger and then closure to The General

 

I think it would work better as an album (lol) opener and the Monsters to close the fictitious album 

[SoulMonster]

The lyrics in the Japanese CD are not official. 

[DoMw94]

58 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The lyrics in the Japanese CD are not official. 

But it's an official release... how do you come to that conclusion? I'd be more inclined to believe those than any others

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DoMw94 said:

But it's an official release... how do you come to that conclusion? I'd be more inclined to believe those than any others

Because it states that the lyrics have been interpreted, or something to that effect. 

[DoMw94]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Because it states that the lyrics have been interpreted, or something to that effect. 

Ah, fair enough. Mine's not arrived yet

[luciusfunk]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

The lyrics in the Japanese CD are not official. 

Interesting.

[MYWIFEMYLIFE]

is monster released?

[Rovim]

4 minutes ago, MYWIFEMYLIFE said:

is monster released?

no

[MYWIFEMYLIFE]

oh is it a leak then?

[Jw224]

19 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Because it states that the lyrics have been interpreted, or something to that effect. 

Yeah, seems someone listened to the song and wrote down what they heard, lol.