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  2. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    why is it morally wrong? if you say it is morally wrong, you say it is an ethical rule. Where is this rule written I ask? I can show you where it is written in my world: in the bible. "When they hit you, don't hit back but turn the other cheek". It's in the bible, a book more than 2000 years old that has the backing of billions of followers. Where is your book? Or is it, your "intuition"? that's a problem. Intuition isn't a good foundation for a moral rule. We need to somehow, dissect moral rules out of moral facts. But that is a tedious process, and you then have the burden of proof on top of it. this is actually a problem for ethicists, and whole fields of ethics are dedicated on "proving" a moral rule. Seeing how ethicists have problems "proving" moral rules, why go through the effort? It's all already written in the bible. Even the book of whisdom alone will provide you with a good bagage of moral rules, should you somehow lack those to begin with
  3. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    I agree, criminal laws aren't enough. Fortunately we have ethical systems on top of that. We are taught that hitting someone is wrong, not because we risk criminal punishment but because it is morally wrong. In addition, there is growing evidence that we are born with some moral sense expressed from our genes. So the combination of this, genes, ethical system, and the threat of criminal punishment, together seems to work fairly well. Religion doesn't seem to have much additive effect. Which is low religiosity, as seen in Norway, doesn't seem to lead to higher crime rates. I find it morally detestable to try to make people do good because of the threat of some imaginary, and cruel, god. Sorry, the existence of a universe isn't evidence of god.
  4. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    So it is only us who have this pleasure. Can you not just drink some beer or listen to some music? Watch Man - oh, sorry, better not watch Man U. There are surely better ways to derive pleasure than haranguing people about religion on a Guns N' Roses forum?
  5. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    here's a good piece of evidence of the existence of a creator: the universe
  6. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    How long? Probably since I realized that gods don't exist. That would be 30+ years by now. Have I ever helped to make someone reject superstition? Oh yes, I like to think I have. But I don't really discuss religion outside of discussion forums, I have found it really doesn't lend itself to social settings Of course I am susceptible to changing my opinions, on anything, really. Just provide a good argument or evidence and I will happily start believing in the supernatural. It is not a waste of time if someone finds my posts interesting, or if I am having fun. What seems to be a waste of time, though, is you complaining about me.
  7. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    I agree. there is no guarantee other christians will cherry pick the good ones. but the problem doesn't start with religion. the problem starts with the "ignorant mass" which by definition is stupid, egotistical and doesn't care about values. Man is born a wolf, and it needs to be tamed somehow. I maintain, that criminal laws in and of itself aren't sufficient. See how full the prisons already are. Now imagine that on top of that population, a whole group of people is added that doesn't have religious limits to their behaviour. Religion is (was) a stronger incentive to act good, than criminal laws. Not too long ago, the fear of going to hell FAR outweighed the fear of going to jail. Good luck to a "worldy" set of morals to provoke the same amount of fear in people than hell and satan.
  8. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    Well, as I said, I am happy you do. My problem is just, how can I know that other christians will cherry-pick the same texts? It is waaaaay too arbitrary for comfort. We REALLY shouldn't let a book based on the ethical systems of bronze and iron age people, peope who lived in very different societies in very different times, be the source for moral systems today. Especially not when the bible is claimed to be divinely inspired. That's a recipe for disaster. How long can we expect society to help guide christians to the right verses and reject the bad ones? How long until we again see violents sects pop up in chistianity as we see in islam?
  9. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    You have been having this same tired old argument how long? Why? What is the purpose? Have you ever diverted somebody away from faith and onto the path of atheism? I don't believe so. Are you yourself susceptible to being persuaded about faith? No. It is a complete waste of time. Every few weeks you trigger another one of these boring arguments and it is an utter waste of time.
  10. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    i'm not offended. when you point to wrong passages in the bible, I'll be the first to acknowledge them. these parts constitute a problem. But nothing that a person of good will couldn't downplay
  11. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    That's not at all what vipassana is. For starters it's 100% free and runs on donations and volunteers. It's for everyone. It's not atheistic or religious(despite originating from Buddhism) and there's no mysticism involved and everything is explained. Vipassana meditation is a literal, physical, experiential meditation technique that is entirely observable. You've only demonstrated a little bit of bullshit and hey you look like that ghost from Mario Kart so I'll still read the whole Bible, as I've been intending for quite a while. Thanks for the compliments. I've got nothing but love and respect for this guy:
  12. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    That would be all well and good if religion wasn't such a burden on humanity. And I try not to harangue anyone, and hopefully @action won't feel it that way, either. If so, I apologize. But I won't hold my tongue when criticising the morality of the bible out of some fear that christians will be offended by it. Nothing is above criticism, not even religion or their holy tests. Progress comes from discussions, and then we just have to try to not let it become personal.
  13. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    fair enough. at the end of the day, we all have a choice to act good or bad. while I acknowledge, of course, that not everything in the bible has equal moral value, many things do. The bible is, you've said it, a compilation. "the church", which I despise, has decided which texts form the bible. Seeing how man has decided which texts form the bible, I reserve the right to cherry pick those that I "think" hold most value. As a start of being a good citizen, I think there are worse things than that here was me thinking you didn't like flower-power mumbo jumbo
  14. Avengers: Endgame

    (This isn't a spoiler, this is speculation): When you consider how many of these guys are done after this (Downey and Captain America) you would be led to believe that they will be the ones to kill Thanos. Since they're gone after this, might as well let them go down swinging hard, right? I don't think that's exactly the way it's going to be. When you think about it, why does the character of Nebula exist if not to kill Thanos? She's a secondary character, an antagonist and the sole piece of motivation since she first showed up, was to have vengeance on her father. It's much more likely to me that she will be the one to do the deed.
  15. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    It is not a joking matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Ukpabio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft_accusations_against_children_in_Africa I am sure Helen Ukpabio believes she has the bible on her side when she torments children she thinks is possessed by evil spirits. I am sure she uses the aforementioned verse as support for what she does. Her actions, and her ethical system, is based (at least partly) on scripture. Which goes back to where we started: the good book is certainly not good and it cannot be safely used to build an ethical system. If you do that you risk ending up as a monster who torments kids for being possessed, or monsters who murder 390 Easter worshippers in Sri Lanka. It all comes down to interpretation and emphases.
  16. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    Here is a novel idea: religious plurality. Allow the religious man to be religious without haranguing him, and the atheism man to be atheistic without haranguing. End of argument. Go and discuss Guns N' Roses or something or other.
  17. doubt it would happen. GNR is too big. but I kind of feel like if they do open for the stones, Izzy will somehow find his way up on that stage (hopefully with GNR). only way I could see it happening is incase the needed the quick publicity to promote another box set or dvd release. or heaven forbid to promote a new song.
  18. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    I was referring to the sum of all of us too. Again, see Durkheim for further doctrine in this subject secular laws need to be of course. Not everyone takes christianity as a good enough incentive to act good. That's when criminal law comes in. But millions, billions of people have refrained from bad behaviour, for the past millennia, on the sole basis of being afraid from hell. Even the biggest scumbag in history, Hitler, on different occasions reckognised the need to please a "creator", which probably refrained him from killing even more people (Hitler, Adolf (1999). Mein Kampf. Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, pp. 65, 119, 152, 161, 214, 375, 383, 403, 436, 562, 565, 622, 632–633).
  19. Of all the scenarios mentioned in this thread, that one is the most unrealistic.
  20. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    That's too bad for our sisters who practise the noble art of witchcraft. If it's of any comfort to you, I'll do my best to convince my fellow christian brothers not to kill any witches anymore
  21. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    When I said "we will" I was referring to the sum of all of us. Not you and me. Of course religion originates from society. It is man-made, after all. And hence are its ethical systems. So I wasn't contradicting myself, I was contradicting your statement that morals come from god. And that last message is troubling in itself. So the message to ISIS is that they are forgiven for their atrocities because Jesus will wash away their sins? What kind of deterrent is that, really? Then I am very glad we have secular laws who can give them a proper punishment.
  22. I see your point now, I still wish they could have him and Matt back on a permenant basis and learn to put up with Steven as impossible as that maybe but I can't see it happening
  23. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    sad to hear, but to be honest, I was expecting so. Meditation is just a modern capitalist invention for atheists to find some sort of soul-searching. It's costly, its artificial and frankly, I view it as meaningless. my advice to you, should you still want to listen after all the bullshit i've demonstrated: read the book whisdom in the bible. Even if you just read a couple of lines, like I did, you'll already feel different. I've went on the read the 4 gospels, and this made me a far more forgiving man than I was ever before. It may make a difference to you, it may not, but I suspect it will. you're a caring, kind individual. you would be a good christian.
  24. That one is. I've not heard any horror stories or logistical nightmares from it and it's been going a good few years already. How's Burning Man? Looks massive and there's stories of crazy stuff going on in tents there.
  25. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    I am very sceptic when you say "we will" decide what is good and what is bad. In reality, with religion, we already have decided what is good and bad. From the beginning of civilisation it was already pretty clear what was good and bad. This stems from our inherent need to reproduce and to protect our genes. Are you familiar with Durkheim? He argued that religion "originates" from society. Every society has "their" form of religion because it originates within society. So if your concern is, that morals should be decided by us rather than by god, you're in fact contradicting yourself I think (but this is getting technical now), according to christianity, jesus washes away our sins. Even if we don't believe, jesus still loves us. in any case, the video does not say: become christian, it says: love will save you no matter how many people you kill
  26. Today
  27. The Religion/Spirituality Thread

    I don't despise religious people(or anyone really even the few I really fucking hate ) just bullshit behaviour. I've made it clear numerous times my good intentions and feelings and the kindness and patience I've shown is just forgotten and overshadowed by confusion and bitterness, which saddens me but I won't take any blame for other people's bullshit. So I don't despise you either just the bullshit you've demonstrated. I turn the cheek far more often than some people care to admit - I'm just not a mug and don't suffer fools gladly. I get love and hate, mostly love, on here and in real life so I must be doing something right, oh well, can't please everyone. I've been making no progress with vipassana meditation, haven't been doing it. Which is beyond dumb. It's just very difficult and I'm fucking lazy I guess. But it's very worthwhile and valuable so I'm intending on doing another 10 day course when I have the time and hopefully I can attain the discipline to do the daily practice.
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