Article About Izzy/Guns on the Wall Street Journal

[scooby845]

9 hours ago, Blackstar said:

It's not in his book, it's from here:

https://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/interview-steven-adler-matt-sorum-the-guns-n-roses-story-549356

In the book he doesn't talk about either song along these lines.

Recently, when he said it isn't him playing on the "new" SOYL, he said that it's basically the same song as Reckless, so that kind of explains it.

Explains what? 

It's either SOYL or Reckless Life?

[Blackstar]

3 minutes ago, scooby845 said:

Explains what? 

It's either SOYL or Reckless Life?

Explains that he can't remember which one it was and one time he says it was SOYL and the other time he says it was Reckless.

 

[Euchre]

2 hours ago, bikka said:

This. How on earth did Duff get to this elevated status? Just because he sucks up to everyone? Mr. Diplomat? Imo, he's spineless, just like Slash called him way back and that's why he manages to get his $

It's all to do with the $ and who controls the $. I don't think its any surprise that the 3 people who have the power to block releases are the 3 on stage and no others. Things like the music, credibility, integrity and putting the best possible line up on stage take a back seat to the almighty $ and how each of those 3 maximise it for themselves. Greed could be another way of putting it.

[Ratam]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Explains that he can't remember which one it was and one time he says it was SOYL and the other time he says it was Reckless.

 

I not would to entrust much in Steven memory ,many trouble with drugs affected his memory.

[double talkin jive mfkr]

12 hours ago, Modano09 said:

How are they profiting from the classic era while not proving enough of classic value? 

geez i will try and explain this for u due to your relentless and obtuse axl/tb like thinking 

 

they half reunited on the premise that the classic era would be reinforced to fans and blended the sub par hired hands into the mix rather than doing it in full force solely due to greed and ego

any other clarificiations that you need? 

[Modano09]

2 hours ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

geez i will try and explain this for u due to your relentless and obtuse axl/tb like thinking 

 

they half reunited on the premise that the classic era would be reinforced to fans and blended the sub par hired hands into the mix rather than doing it in full force solely due to greed and ego

any other clarificiations that you need? 

Oh. So it's not how you personally want it to be so it's all bad and wrong then?

 

[double talkin jive mfkr]

3 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

Oh. So it's not how you personally want it to be so it's all bad and wrong then?

 

ha yeah i'll drink your KOOL AID 

BUDDY NOBODY that truly knows GNR agrees with you other than Fernando, Jarmo and Del - every other person that truly knows GNR on the planet would agree with me that this NITL is not GNR and is actually quite distant from what they were, however the brand holds such value due to their nostalgia that they've managed to make the tour successful based on casual poser fans that know sweet child and NR 

do u want to watch a show from 91 just to refresh your foggy memory and then compare a show such as the one at the Apollo Theater last year? 

[KURT19]

16 hours ago, RussTCB said:

OK... I might be opening a can of worms here, but fuck it-

I have to assume the current GNR pay scale percentage goes like this:

Axl = highest cut

Slash & Duff = less than Axl but more than Dizzy

Dizzy = less than Slash & Duff, but more than 4tus, Frank & Melissa

4tus, Frank & Melissa = lowest cut

So I'm curious, where would everyone think Izzy should fit in assuming of course he replaced 4tus altogether? 

Would most people think he, Slash & Duff should get an equal but lesser cut than Axl or should the 4 AFD members all receive an equal cut with the 3 supporting members splitting the rest? 

Hopefully my question makes sense as I'm genuinely interested in what everyone thinks. 

 

If your assumption is correct and we are talking touring percentages, then the proposed split should look something like this:

Axl = 25%

Slash = 25%

Duff = 20%

Izzy = 20%

Dizzy = 5%

Frank = 2.5%

Melissa = 2.5%

 

Now, if you really want to say "fuck It" and extend this line of thinking to the AFD5 lineup then it should look like this:

Axl = 20%

Slash = 20%

Duff = 20%

Izzy = 20%

Steven = 20%

 

Then "double-fuck it", the Saskatoon Six lineup should be this:

Axl = 25%

Slash = 25%

Duff = 15%

Matt = 15%

Gilby = 15%

Dizzy = 5%

[Kwick1]

The casual fan who bought AFD and UYI that might have been fortunate enough to see GnR live during 89-92, is who is purchasing the NITLT tickets as well as new fans who were introduced or found GnR after 1992. Marketing to these fans "the masses" is smart business. To the great majority of people GnR is Axl and Slash. They might not even know or remember who the bass player, rhythm guitar or drummer(s) were. Duff being there is a bonus. @double talkin jive mfkr, I very much remember the '91 show I was at. They were unenthusiastic especially the chemistry between Axl and Izzy and played for about 90 minutes. What I've seen from NITLT is energy and interaction between Axl, Slash and Duff where they genuinely appear to be enjoying themselves. It's not the original 5, but it's still great. Most still consider UYI great but that wasn't the original 5. So I suppose I don't understand the complaints about NITLT not being a GnR reunion and recognizing UYI as GnR. Is the Izzy not being there, the big deciding factor? 

[Modano09]

18 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

ha yeah i'll drink your KOOL AID 

BUDDY NOBODY that truly knows GNR agrees with you other than Fernando, Jarmo and Del - every other person that truly knows GNR on the planet would agree with me that this NITL is not GNR and is actually quite distant from what they were, however the brand holds such value due to their nostalgia that they've managed to make the tour successful based on casual poser fans that know sweet child and NR 

do u want to watch a show from 91 just to refresh your foggy memory and then compare a show such as the one at the Apollo Theater last year? 

I would think the people involved with GNR would 'know' GNR. Also based on the success of the tour,  there's a lot of people who don't 'know' what GNR is. 

They're having fun playing together, the shows are well received, they're making money and people are having fun. But HOW DARE THEY not pay Izzy whatever amount of not your money it took to make this 'real' GNR for you.

[double talkin jive mfkr]

41 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

I would think the people involved with GNR would 'know' GNR. Also based on the success of the tour,  there's a lot of people who don't 'know' what GNR is. 

They're having fun playing together, the shows are well received, they're making money and people are having fun. But HOW DARE THEY not pay Izzy whatever amount of not your money it took to make this 'real' GNR for you.

well for the record i purchased tickets to 4 shows of NITL so they still got me but after the novelty wore off and izzy's absence and franks shitty drumming became more and more apparent, it was a yes how dare they situation...I would still be keen to attend additional shows but sadly the quality in music simply is not there and yes leaving out izzy is a big enough black eye and elephant in the room that they can have fun all they want as a group making cash but their loyalty and mostly integrity to the true brand and sound is completely absent

Edited May 31, 2018 by double talkin jive mfkr

[RONIN]

 

1 hour ago, Modano09 said:

I would think the people involved with GNR would 'know' GNR.

This was your first mistake. Anyone who hires DJ Ashba as a partial replacement for Slash does not know GnR. Anyone who resuscitates said band from the grave and tries to continue without one-half of its songwriting team does not "know" GnR. Plenty of founders fuck up their own creations (see George Lucas).

Quote

Also based on the success of the tour,  there's a lot of people who don't 'know' what GNR is. 

And? A lot of people saw Transformers 3, 4, and 5 despite them being cinematic abortions. That franchise is near death though because the reputation and credibility of the IP is in the gutter. Disney minted money on that franchise but in doing so, have effectively killed the property. Commercial success does not give you a license to turn out mediocre product. The GnR brand is still so strong, they can afford to bring in people based on past glory. That may not last very long if they continue on the path they're going. 

Quote

They're having fun playing together,

You don't know that. They haven't even done a single interview together.

Quote

the shows are well received,

Opinions vary. The principals are generally well received. The replacements? A mixed bag and I'm being generous w/ Ferrer.

Quote

they're making money

That they are. But apparently not enough to give Pitman a raise or pay Izzy what he was worth. That Axl entourage and his stage outfits are expensive to maintain.

Quote

and people are having fun.

At the prices they're charging, one would hope they could at least deliver that. Maybe we can aim a little higher here for a steak instead of a good burger.

Quote

But HOW DARE THEY not pay Izzy whatever amount of not your money it took to make this 'real' GNR for you.

I mean, that's their prerogative. But when they give BS reasons for why a key member of the band is missing, expect backlash. If I buy a porsche, I have certain expectations regarding the quality of the driving experience, the performance, etc. When I am buying a ticket for Guns N' Roses, there are certain basic expectations - expectations that are not being met for the most inane reasons. Now, perhaps this is okay with certain people who will take an inferior product without complaint - but others don't have to like what they're getting. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by RONIN

[StrangerInThisTown]

Here's a sad piece of truth: Many if not all GNR fans want either Izzy and/or Steven/Matt/Gilby instead of Frank and Fortus there. But MOST of those people will still go to the shows because it's not worth missing out on seeing Axl and Slash and 3/5 of GNR just because those are missing. So guess what happens when those poor fans buy tickets to shows? The people who got your money WIN. They have WON. The band gets away with it.

Bringing up things like "the shows are all sold out" or whatever as an argument that most people don't care if all those aforementioned people are replaced by nobodys like Frank or Fortus is straight up erroneous. Yes those ex members won't move many more tickets for GNR because like 90% of all the people who want those people there end up going still. Very sad situation for any fans of Izzy/Adler/Sorum/Gilby.

Edited May 31, 2018 by StrangerInThisTown

[Modano09]

28 minutes ago, RONIN said:

 

This was your first mistake. Anyone who hires DJ Ashba as a partial replacement for Slash does not know GnR. Anyone who resuscitates said band from the grave and tries to continue without one-half of its songwriting team does not "know" GnR. Plenty of founders fuck up their own creations (see George Lucas).

And? A lot of people saw Transformers 3, 4, and 5 despite them being cinematic abortions. That franchise is near death though because the reputation and credibility of the IP is in the gutter. Disney minted money on that franchise but in doing so, have effectively killed the property. Commercial success does not give you a license to turn out mediocre product. The GnR brand is still so strong, they can afford to bring in people based on past glory. That may not last very long if they continue on the path they're going. 

You don't know that. They haven't even done a single interview together.

Opinions vary. The principals are generally well received. The replacements? A mixed bag and I'm being generous w/ Ferrer.

That they are. But apparently not enough to give Pitman a raise or pay Izzy what he was worth. That Axl entourage and his stage outfits are expensive to maintain.

At the prices they're charging, one would hope they could at least deliver that. Maybe we can aim a little higher here for a steak instead of a good burger.

I mean, that's their prerogative. But when they give BS reasons for why a key member of the band is missing, expect backlash. If I buy a porsche, I have certain expectations regarding the quality of the driving experience, the performance, etc. When I am buying a ticket for Guns N' Roses, there are certain basic expectations - expectations that are not being met for the most inane reasons. Now, perhaps this is okay with certain people who will take an inferior product without complaint - but others don't have to like what they're getting. 

What did they say that's so offensive about Izzy? Sometimes he wants to do something, then it can change? That's consistent with how everyone describes the guy and if it turns out he wanted more money than they were willing to give him, what good does it do to say the publicly? They can't win. And I know it's expected that they just give Izzy whatever amount of money he wanted but that's not fair either. 

Again, the vast majority of people attending these shows are having a good time because they're not going into it looking for reasons to pick apart the line up because it's not who they want it to be. 

[WhazUp]

32 minutes ago, RONIN said:

When I am buying a ticket for Guns N' Roses, there are certain basic expectations - expectations that are not being met for the most inane reasons. Now, perhaps this is okay with certain people who will take an inferior product without complaint - but others don't have to like what they're getting. 

Although to be fair, you can compare your expectations when it comes to band members before you click "purchase" on any given show ticket.  For me when I buy a concert ticket my basic expectations are, to see the people I know are in the band when I purchase the ticket, and to get a good show.  I got both of those things, and I was satisfied.  

It isn't about "certain people who will take an inferior product" because who has the ability to call something inferior on behalf of everyone else?  That is just my personal take on all of this

[RONIN]

17 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Axl could legally start a new band only if he quit the partnership (or if he was fired). Or if the other partners left.

In my opinion, Axl's resignation letter in 1995 was just a legal bluff, probably to drag Slash and Duff into an amendment of the 1992 agreement (for example, one that would give Axl more veto power). Slash and Duff would have to either call the bluff risking that Axl might actually leave and take the name with him (so the band would break up) or sit, appoint lawyers etc. and negotiate, which they did, and that led, with the mediation of the label, to the so called "trial period".

What is certain, is that Axl never left the old partnership eventually. In the link I posted with the trademark registrations, the applications for renewal of the use of the GnR trademark during the NuGnR era were signed only by Axl as "partner" but always in reference to the initial registration under the 1992 partnership.

And I think Duff left being member of that partnership. There's a quote from him (I don't have time to look for it now) when talking about Matt's firing, where he told Axl that he couldn't make that decision by himself because they had to vote (so they were partners).

It was a weird situation for sure. It looks like the band GnR and the business/partnership GnR were two different beasts between 1997-2015. From my understanding there was a lot of litigation during the NuGnR era because of that. I don't remember if it's in Chinese Whispers or elsewhere, but at some point in 1998-99 there was an arrangement with the label which released Slash and Duff from their obligation to record an album with Axl as GnR, which means that they were still  considered members.

Slash and Duff, as partners, interfered with Axl when it came to licensing and whatever else had to do with the back catalogue, but had no reason to interfere with what Axl did with the band, whom he hired etc., as none of the two parties, Axl and them, wished to reform as a band.

Very insightful, thanks for sharing Blackstar. 

So Duff in '96/97 had ceded much of his veto power and creative influence but still was a controlling partner in Nu Guns (a rebranded GnR) under the original partnership. Essentially he was presented a contract similar to the contract Izzy was given I imagine without the reduction in royalties. I always wondered whether Duff's quote about being offered a lot of money to stay in GnR could be construed as him having been downgraded to a salaried employee in Nu Guns. But given what you're saying, the "money" he's referring to is :

Quote

 

"I went to dinner with Axl and his manager. He was a manager of GN'R and still Axl's. [...] Me and Axl were getting along well and we had very good conversation. [...] I said 'Axl, we had very [much] fun together, but it's your own band now. I'm not interested in you as a dictator. I didn't come here to talk about the money advanced for next record. You can have it.'" (Duff, Burrn Magazine, 12/99)

"The perception I have of what Axl's doing at the moment is that he's basically making a solo album but retaining the GN'R name so that he can get at the major contractual advance that's waiting at Geffen for a new Guns N' Roses-titled record. I can't give you the exact figure but I will tell you it's in the multi-million-dollar range. This renegotiation was effected just before I was fired." (Alan Niven, Icon Magazine, 10/97)

"GN'R began work on a new album of original material, drawing from a Geffen advance thought to be around $10 million - Madonna kind of money." (Rolling Stone, 05/11/00)

 

Slash and Duff walked away from a tremendous amount of money. How interesting. I think this furthers the theory that Slash leaving was a power move if you ask me. His attempt to up the stakes and try to force Axl back to the negotiating table without anticipating that Axl would move on without him. Duff resigning then was him basically realizing that Slash's bluff had gone so far beyond what was intended that there was no stopping the chain reaction of events (Axl hiring a new drummer and Finck). 

It would appear this quote was then factually inaccurate: "He (Slash) has been 'OFFICIALLY and LEGALLY' outside of the Guns N' Roses Partnership since December 31, 1995." (Axl, 10/30/96)

Somehow Sluff found a way to resign from the band and forfeit their financial stake in the band's future tours/albums but still remain partners and retain ownership of IP. Fascinating.

This was the quote you were thinking of: 

Quote

 

On May Day '98, Geffen Records officially acknowledged the departure of Slash and Duff from GNR.

"Since 1992, [GNR and Geffen Records] have executed various amendments to the Recording Agreement, including most notably, two amendments dated as of May 1, 1998.

One of these amendments [...] confirmed Slash's and Duff's departure from the band and their status as "Leaving Members" under the 1992 Recording Agreement, thereby relieving them of charges against their royalty accounts for the enormous recording costs and other expenses being incurred by Axl Rose in connection with the recording of the new Guns N' Roses studio album. Slash and Duff, like Stradlin and Adler before them, retained a royalty interest in masters created under the Recording Agreement prior to their departure from the band.

In the other May 1, 1998 amendment, [...] Axl Rose agreed, among other things, to deliver that new studio LP (which was even then long overdue under the Recording Agreement) no later than March 1, 1999 and received a substantial advance from Geffen in return." (Greatest Hits lawsuit document)

 

 

[moreblack]

It's enough of a "reunion" to draw the masses back in. 

[RONIN]

50 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

What did they say that's so offensive about Izzy? Sometimes he wants to do something, then it can change?

They attempted to shift the blame to Izzy and undermine his credibility by insinuating that he's unreliable and can't be depended upon. That he went back on an agreement they already had tentatively decided upon. Hence, the one guy who never makes a public statement in the band, starts a twitter account and calls their version of events "bullshit". It would appear that Izzy took some measure of offense to what they had said given his choice of words.

Quote

That's consistent with how everyone describes the guy and if it turns out he wanted more money than they were willing to give him, what good does it do to say the publicly? They can't win.

They could have said what Izzy just said to the WSJ, that a deal couldn't be worked out and we couldn't find a middle ground. That we still love the guy and it's unfortunate. But that's not how Axl worded it did he? Hence the backlash.

Quote

And I know it's expected that they just give Izzy whatever amount of money he wanted but that's not fair either. 

I could agree with this. What's fair seems to be largely subjective. 

Quote

Again, the vast majority of people attending these shows are having a good time because they're not going into it looking for reasons to pick apart the line up because it's not who they want it to be. 

Fair enough. I think the contention here for some is that given the massive windfall of profits this tour is raking in, not being able to work out a deal with a guy who is probably the most low maintenance and easy going person in the band seems to reflect poorly on the partners. That their interest in the band is so driven by profit that they're excluding original members who wish to participate in the reunion. That's what sucks. Boiling it down, we could have AFD 5 but it won't happen because of money. This is what is driving the backlash. 

But like you said, as long as people keep going to shows, it's an affirmation of the status quo.

Edited May 31, 2018 by RONIN

[beautifulanddamned]

5 minutes ago, StrangerInThisTown said:

Here's a sad piece of truth: Many if not all GNR fans want either Izzy and/or Steven/Matt/Gilby instead of Frank and Fortus there. But MOST of those people will still go to the shows because it's not worth missing out on seeing Axl and Slash and 3/5 of GNR just because those are missing. So guess what happens when those poor fans buy tickets to shows and GNR get their money? They WIN. They have WON. The band gets away with it.

Bringing up things like "the shows are all sold out" or whatever as an argument that most people don't care if all those aforementioned people are replaced by nobodys like Frank or Fortus is straight up erroneous. Yes those ex members won't move many more tickets for GNR because like 90% of all the people who want those people there end up going still. Very sad situation for people like us.

Exactly. It's not just the casuals who don't care about the line-up outside of Axl and Slash. I'm an Izzy nutswinger , and I acknowledge the fact that I screwed him over when I bought a ticket in 2016. A lot of us kick and scream about it but most of us bought wildly overpriced tickets anyway and that is literally all that matters. You vote with your wallet, not your comments on a message board. The mass of business people behind this reunion understood from the beginning that it would happen that way.  GNR INC isn't about producing music, or regaining respect or making fans happy. It's about making money. We can bitch and moan about the line-up and the setlist and no new music, but if you bought a ticket or a t-shirt or a litho, then you are giving your unqualified approval to the band and the machine has won.

 

 

[Padme]

21 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Although to be fair, you can compare your expectations when it comes to band members before you click "purchase" on any given show ticket.  For me when I buy a concert ticket my basic expectations are, to see the people I know are in the band when I purchase the ticket, and to get a good show.  I got both of those things, and I was satisfied.  

It isn't about "certain people who will take an inferior product" because who has the ability to call something inferior on behalf of everyone else?  That is just my personal take on all of this

Well I've seen what I wanted to see. If they keep this tour going for ever with the same set list, no Adler, no Izzy and no new album. I won't be buying tickets. And I don't care about the box set or some other cash grab they may come up with. I'm drawing the line

[RONIN]

49 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Although to be fair, you can compare your expectations when it comes to band members before you click "purchase" on any given show ticket.  For me when I buy a concert ticket my basic expectations are, to see the people I know are in the band when I purchase the ticket, and to get a good show.  I got both of those things, and I was satisfied.  

Most people (the kind Modano is referring to) don't do that. They're going to the show because GnR is an iconic brand and they trust the legacy of the band enough to go without knowing who is in the band. Irony being that said legacy is formed partially by people who are not there on the stage. Given how much they're throwing the AFD imagery in the marketing material, there's a case to be made that the way they're promoting the tour is deceptive. It's not a full reunion but it's still being marketed as one. 

My point was simply that when you buy a product, you expect a certain "integrity" to it. When I buy a BMW, I expect german engineering and high quality craftsmanship. If they're compromising the parts in that car with inferior quality replacements to save money - that's not a "real" BMW anymore even if the BMW logo is on it. That's what this current iteration of GnR is. A hybridized inferior version of the original. Let's call a spade a spade.

Now if Izzy or Steven were unavailable, unwilling, ill, etc I'd give the partners a pass. Heck, you could even convince me that Steven is not a viable option for this tour and I'd buy it. But Izzy ready and willing to be included but they can't work out a deal? Come on...

Quote

It isn't about "certain people who will take an inferior product" because who has the ability to call something inferior on behalf of everyone else?  That is just my personal take on all of this

Well look, I'll grant you that art is subjective, but I think there's a basic criteria that makes it pretty straightforward to tell when something is inferior. Perhaps some will say that Frank's drumming in GnR is not inferior. Fine. Many would say otherwise imho.

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by RONIN

[Modano09]

20 minutes ago, RONIN said:

They attempted to shift the blame to Izzy and undermine his credibility by insinuating that he's unreliable and can't be depended upon. That he went back on an agreement they already had tentatively decided upon. Hence, the one guy who never makes a public statement in the band, starts a twitter account and calls their version of events "bullshit". It would appear that Izzy took some measure of offense to what they had said given his choice of words.

 

No they didn't, they didn't say he agreed to or backed out of anything. It was implied - which stating it's not meant to be a 'shot' at Izzy - that he tends to change his mind about things. Which is a pretty consistent description of him for the last 30 years. He's the one who ran to Twitter to say it was about money. Would you rather they be the ones to say Izzy wanted too much money to be there?

[Modano09]

21 minutes ago, Padme said:

Well I've seen what I wanted to see. If they keep this tour going for ever with the same set list, no Adler, no Izzy and no new album. I won't be buying tickets. And I don't care about the box set or some other cash grab they may come up with. I'm drawing the line

Drawing the line on what? If you don't want to see them play again, don't. If you don't think the box set is worth the price, don't buy it. But stop acting like it's some righteous stance against the evil musicians who charge you money to hear their music.

[Padme]

26 minutes ago, moreblack said:

It's enough of a "reunion" to draw the masses back in. 

Agree. But the masses care about the hits. Fine, the band plays them. But the ban also should add something for the die hard fans. If they are playing TIL then they also could play Pretty Tied Up. We're getting covers of artists that passed away. Ok, but they could perform the covers just in one show not in every single show.  Are you telling me you rather listen BHS and Wichita Line Man over Perfect Crime, Locomotive or Dead Horse? Do you think the masses are desperate to hear those covers? We still can't even be sure they will play SOYL

[Padme]

5 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

Drawing the line on what? If you don't want to see them play again, don't. If you don't think the box set is worth the price, don't buy it. But stop acting like it's some righteous stance against the evil musicians who charge you money to hear their music.

Well I'm saying I'm not going to shows. I'm not calling them evil. But at this point I think the tickets prices are way too expensive if they keep the same list shows after show. And I don't know who could be so insane to spend $1,000 in that box set. I wouldn't buy it even if I was a millionaire