Article About Izzy/Guns on the Wall Street Journal

[Gibbo]

Fortus was always going to be there..Axl wanted 3 guitarist slash didnt. So the rumour is

[IncitingChaos]

How cool is Izzy that he can write a ten word email and get a response out of us like this haha 

[killuridols]

Just now, Padme said:

If the answer is so simple.Then why is it such an impossible task for Fernando or Axl just explain that? 

The answer might be related to a previous experience they had with Izzy. 

For some unknown reason, Axl thinks Izzy asks for too much money and he is unrealiable, a pain in the ass, etc. So their reason for not giving him such money could be as simple as not considering him worthy enough.

[soon]

24 minutes ago, Padme said:

 

If the answer is so simple.Then why is it such an impossible task for Fernando or Axl just explain that? 

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest there is a simple answer. Just that negotiations were likely originally premised on there being only four shows on the books.

[SoulMonster]

Just now, tremolo said:

It’s funny how you willingly choose to ignore everything else about this band that might lead people to believe the problem was in them/management. As if there wasn’t already a clear pattern of missed and wasted oportunities, the pretty much exclusive focus of gnr on the business side, the lack of art and creativity, the overpriced tickets and merch (hey people, remember that super exclusive line of clothing with T-shirts and leather jackets with INSANE price tags?), the exploiting of afd and this whole nostalgia bs, etc.

Sure, in all fairness it is possible that Izzy was being extremely unreasonable while management/gnr were trying hard to fulfill all his demands. Or maybe, as you say it was a thing from both sides... but this band, and Axl and TB/Fernando have a history and a series of recurring patterns that are very hard to ignore. And this is not speculation: The way this band has operated in the last 10 years (at least!) and their absurd focus on money have been a total shitshow and given that, guessing they were not willing to cooperate is not that absurd.

Axl and his management have made their own reputation. So has Izzy. Taking that into consideration, it’s not that complicated to figure the whole thing out.

It sure is easy to come up with possibilities but it is still nothing but speculation until we actually get the facts. Personally I believe the fault lies with both parties, but that is just my opinion based on past history, and I would never present it as fact nor use it to slam either of them until I actually got it verified.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

I guess the gnr you follow and the gnr i have followed have a different history and facts behind them.

So the band you have followed have somehow presented you with so much information that you automatically blame the band over Izzy? That's interesting.

Here is my speculation: Izzy was likely offered less per gig than Axl, Slash and Duff (hence the "split the loot equally") but at the same time, the band would not have expected as much from him nor given him as many obligations performance-wise, nor would he be expected to have drawn a much larger crowd (and maybe they also baked in the possibility that he wouldn't even show up, a liability that could show up in the compensation section). So the band would justify it in that way. Izzy, on the other hand, probably wasn't very enthusiastic about the touring, anyway, and decided to only do it if he got really well paid. So it turned out their expectations weren't made and no deal could be reached. I wouldn't be surprised if the parties were quite far from each other, maybe so far that Izzy felt a bit insulted by what he was offered and turned to twitter, for his first time, to vent a bit.

But this is just what I find plausible. It could easily be skewed in either party's direction (the band offering very little, or Izzy being very demanding) making that party more unreasonable than the other. I woulcn't be surprised by any scenario, really. So here I am, on the fence.

[PatrickS77]

2 hours ago, tremolo said:

It’s funny that Fernando called him “a dear friend”, which sounds like jizz-gurgling / damage control lingo and total bullshit corporate talk.

Yeah. If he's a dear friend, then I have to ask why he isn't there? Why couldn't they even come to terms for a guest spot in a city of his choosing? While in '06 he did almost the whole european tour.

[Tucknroll]

2 hours ago, tremolo said:

So it’s ok for Slash, Axl and Duff to do it for the MONEY (with capital letters cause it’s A LOT OF IT), but Izzy should make those 3 even more money and just do it for the fans, man...

It’s a matter of principles and integrity. I’m glad Izzy still has his.

They own gnr.  It's their business and job. We go to work mostly for the money. Izzy doesn't own gnr. Does anyone here make the same as the owner of your job? I doubt it

[Tucknroll]

7 hours ago, DeadSlash said:

If you were super good at bussing tables at Red Robin, and all of the patrons really wanted you back, but the owner was offering you half of minimum wage even though he was making $480m a year, would you do it for the fans? Or would you be all about the money?

I don't own red robins. If I did, I would make more money. Lots more. Same as the big 3 owning gnr

[guitarpatch]

9 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

Yeah. If he's a dear friend, then I have to ask why he isn't there? Why couldn't they even come to terms for a guest spot in a city of his choosing? While in '06 he did almost the whole european tour.

Izzy got paid appearance fees in 06. Thing is this. Izzy rejoining the band for a reunion type tour is the ace in his pocket. It’s realistically his last big pay day. Maybe he wants to make it count and cash in on that scenario. By agreeing to a guest spot and a lesser appearance fee, he’s significantly taking $ off the table now and more importantly in the future if it actually happens. 

For GNR they were already getting extremely high guaranteed fees to tour without him. Maybe bringing Izzy back in the future for another go around once things cool off is a better option 

Deals have to make sense for everyone. I’m sure there was a will to compromise if things were close enough. However this may have been a scenario where they were just too far apart to even talk further

[double talkin jive mfkr]

biggest thing is axl prefers his band of pirates rather than actually doing an original reunion 

1) costs less 

2) no drama

3) music will sound shittier which he prefers since he's lost his ear over the last decade 

if he could understand that 

1) nobody gives a flying fuck about his additional band of sychophant session musicians 

2) his ego is still as big as it was in the 90s and he needs to chill and that gnr name aint going anywhere 

3) the final product will be enormously better than the shit plaster rock they are stuffing down our throats 

 

MAKE A DEAL 

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, tremolo said:

No. I’m just basing my opinion on the little information I have, information that has not been given by the band. In fact, the only information I have from the band is a blatant lie by Axl who chose to throw Izzy under the bus just to save face.

What blatant lie?

[SoulMonster]

20 minutes ago, tremolo said:

Izzy is flaky, you never know with Izzy, he’s unreliable, etc. That’s why Izzy isn’t a part of the reunion.

He said it was difficult because Izzy would change his position frequently. How do you know that is a lie? 

[Slosh13]

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

I’m not disagreeing with that. That’s why this joke of a band should be called Guns N Roses inc. and fans should stop with all that “group of friends/buddies” bullshit.

GNR is not an active creative endeavour. It is a corporation, and their main purpose is making as much money as possible while spending as little as possible. Kinda like One Direction, the Jonas Brothers or whatever is the latest musical product out there (and I use the “musical” term very loosely).

 Alan Niven suggested that that meeting Axl had with David Bowie in the late 80s changed everything. That's when Axl became much more aware of the business side of things.

I'm still staggered that Slash signed away the band to Axl in the mid 90s. Izzy, I understand why, but Slash signing it away was a bizarre move.

[SoulMonster]

I suppose we have a parallel to our current situation back in 1991 when Izzy was leaving GN'R. Axl tried to make him stay:

Axl: We were filming 'Don't Cry,' and he had to be there. Instead, he sent a really short, cold letter and didn't show up. We got this letter saying, "This changes, this changes, and maybe I'll tour in January." And they were ridiculous demands that weren't going to be met. I talked to Izzy for four and a half hours on the phone. At some points, I was crying, and I was begging. I was doing everything I could to keep him in the band. There were stipulations, though. If he was going to do like the old Izzy did, he wasn't going to make as much money. It was like "You're not giving an equal share." Slash and I were having to do too much work to keep the attention and the energy up in the crowd. You're onstage going, "This is really hard, and I'm into it and I'm doing it, but that guy just gets to stand there" [Axl Rose: The Rolling Stone Interview; Rolling Stone, April 1992]

And in 1994 Izzy stepped in when Gilby had a broken hand and Slash said the following:

Slash: Then right towards the end he turned around and did certain things that were so fucked. Right towards the fifth date, because of his hand Gilby still wasn't sure if he was going to be able to play, and Izzy all of a sudden turned around and stabbed us in the back again, asked for an amazing amount of money to do one show - it's like, 'I can't believe this, go home!' [Kerrang! March 1994]

So the band and Izzy have a habit of fighting over money with Izzy demanding more 

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by SoulMonster

[Modano09]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I suppose we have a parallel to our current situation back in 1991 when Izzy was leaving GN'R. Axl tried to make him stay:

Axl: We were filming 'Don't Cry,' and he had to be there. Instead, he sent a really short, cold letter and didn't show up. We got this letter saying, "This changes, this changes, and maybe I'll tour in January." And they were ridiculous demands that weren't going to be met. I talked to Izzy for four and a half hours on the phone. At some points, I was crying, and I was begging. I was doing everything I could to keep him in the band. There were stipulations, though. If he was going to do like the old Izzy did, he wasn't going to make as much money. It was like "You're not giving an equal share." Slash and I were having to do too much work to keep the attention and the energy up in the crowd. You're onstage going, "This is really hard, and I'm into it and I'm doing it, but that guy just gets to stand there" [Axl Rose: The Rolling Stone Interview; Rolling Stone, April 1992]

And in 1994 Izzy stepped in when Gilby had a broken hand and Slash said the following:

Slash: Then right towards the end he turned around and did certain things that were so fucked. Right towards the fifth date, because of his hand Gilby still wasn't sure if he was going to be able to play, and Izzy all of a sudden turned around and stabbed us in the back again, asked for an amazing amount of money to do one show - it's like, 'I can't believe this, go home!' [Kerrang! March 1994]

So the band and Axl have a habit of fighting over money with Izzy demanding more 

 

He also demanded more money for his guest appearances in either 2006 or 2010, whenever he made them. 

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

Izzy is flaky, you never know with Izzy, he’s unreliable, etc. That’s why Izzy isn’t a part of the reunion.

The BALLS of the redhead... if that isn’t projection as a defense mechanism, what is it?

Oh, but Axl doesn’t lie! He just has a very particular fucked up and twisted way of seeing the world around him where everyone is at fault but him.

Is there something about how Izzy's lived his life, managed his career and been talked of in the last 25 years that suggests he's not flaky? 

[Tom2112]

2 hours ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

biggest thing is axl prefers his band of pirates rather than actually doing an original reunion 

1) costs less 

2) no drama

3) music will sound shittier which he prefers since he's lost his ear over the last decade 

if he could understand that 

1) nobody gives a flying fuck about his additional band of sychophant session musicians 

2) his ego is still as big as it was in the 90s and he needs to chill and that gnr name aint going anywhere 

3) the final product will be enormously better than the shit plaster rock they are stuffing down our throats 

 

MAKE A DEAL 

You're points might be correct... But you fail to appreciate that the who is in the band and who they want in the band is a big decision. It's a decision that can be made on a number of reasons - who's available, who's interested, who costs least, who's a team player etc. 

Izzy is great, and as he said sometimes it just doesn't work out, he seems fine with it, I'm fine with it WE should all get on with it. 

[Tori72]

The author of the article, Neil Shah, is giving out some serious Izzy love today! It’s awseome! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Padme]

29 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I suppose we have a parallel to our current situation back in 1991 when Izzy was leaving GN'R. Axl tried to make him stay:

Axl: We were filming 'Don't Cry,' and he had to be there. Instead, he sent a really short, cold letter and didn't show up. We got this letter saying, "This changes, this changes, and maybe I'll tour in January." And they were ridiculous demands that weren't going to be met. I talked to Izzy for four and a half hours on the phone. At some points, I was crying, and I was begging. I was doing everything I could to keep him in the band. There were stipulations, though. If he was going to do like the old Izzy did, he wasn't going to make as much money. It was like "You're not giving an equal share." Slash and I were having to do too much work to keep the attention and the energy up in the crowd. You're onstage going, "This is really hard, and I'm into it and I'm doing it, but that guy just gets to stand there" [Axl Rose: The Rolling Stone Interview; Rolling Stone, April 1992]

And in 1994 Izzy stepped in when Gilby had a broken hand and Slash said the following:

Slash: Then right towards the end he turned around and did certain things that were so fucked. Right towards the fifth date, because of his hand Gilby still wasn't sure if he was going to be able to play, and Izzy all of a sudden turned around and stabbed us in the back again, asked for an amazing amount of money to do one show - it's like, 'I can't believe this, go home!' [Kerrang! March 1994]

So the band and Izzy have a habit of fighting over money with Izzy demanding more 

 

It is well known Izzy was against the expensive videos. And he was against the circus the band had become back then.

Slash told a different story in his book. He was happy to have Izzy around. He said one night they did some jamming together. And  there is or was footage about it in the now famous vault that we never got to see. Duff in his book says similar things when Izzy came back to replace Gilby. Both of them were happy to see Izzy again. Futhermore, after the tour ended. Izzy spent time writing or trying to write new music with them around 1995

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, Padme said:

 

Slash told a different story in his book. He was happy to have Izzy around. He said one night they did some jamming together. And  there is or was footage about it in the now famous vault that we never got to see. Duff in his book says similar things when Izzy came back to replace Gilby. Both of them were happy to see Izzy again. Futhermore, after the tour ended. Izzy spent time writing or trying to write new music with them around 1995

I think the interviews close to the time of events are far more reliable sources about how they felt at the time. When time passes people tend to forget or correct (even subconsciously) their memories.

[Padme]

3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think the interviews close to the time of events are far more reliable sources about how they felt at the time. When time passes people tend to forget or correct (even subconsciously) their memories.

I don't care what you think and your "subconsciously" spin off. I care about what they wrote in their books.

 

[double talkin jive mfkr]

izzy is a living legend simple as that 

and axl isn't 

[Tucknroll]

14 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

izzy is a living legend simple as that 

and axl isn't 

That's so wrong it's funny. They both are. Also never understood why as much as axl seems to love money, why have so many on his payroll? I actually think they could have finished the illusions tour without a rhythm guitar player. You couldn't hear it anyways 

[Ratam]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I suppose we have a parallel to our current situation back in 1991 when Izzy was leaving GN'R. Axl tried to make him stay:

Axl: We were filming 'Don't Cry,' and he had to be there. Instead, he sent a really short, cold letter and didn't show up. We got this letter saying, "This changes, this changes, and maybe I'll tour in January." And they were ridiculous demands that weren't going to be met. I talked to Izzy for four and a half hours on the phone. At some points, I was crying, and I was begging. I was doing everything I could to keep him in the band. There were stipulations, though. If he was going to do like the old Izzy did, he wasn't going to make as much money. It was like "You're not giving an equal share." Slash and I were having to do too much work to keep the attention and the energy up in the crowd. You're onstage going, "This is really hard, and I'm into it and I'm doing it, but that guy just gets to stand there" [Axl Rose: The Rolling Stone Interview; Rolling Stone, April 1992]

And in 1994 Izzy stepped in when Gilby had a broken hand and Slash said the following:

Slash: Then right towards the end he turned around and did certain things that were so fucked. Right towards the fifth date, because of his hand Gilby still wasn't sure if he was going to be able to play, and Izzy all of a sudden turned around and stabbed us in the back again, asked for an amazing amount of money to do one show - it's like, 'I can't believe this, go home!' [Kerrang! March 1994]

So the band and Izzy have a habit of fighting over money with Izzy demanding more 

 

Seem that Izzy demand too much money to they reject his demand  seem like a joke 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

I don't care what you think and your "subconsciously" spin off. I care about what they wrote in their books.

They definitely changed their stories as time went.

Here are four different interviews from 1992 where Slash would describe Izzy leaving because he wasn't willing to put in enough effort. And in the first interview it is almost like he was fired because of this:

[...] We just came to the conclusion that Izzy wasn't putting in the time we thought was necessary for the good of the band. It had been building up for a long time. And finally Izzy came out in the open with me and Axl and said he didn't want to deal with the work that was involved. So we decided to work with someone else [...] I just can't understand how he could let something like this fall apart. I mean the guy didn't want to tour or do videos; he hardly wanted to record. I just never thought he was one of those guys that this would happen with [Guitar World, February 1992].

Izzy resigned from Guns on November 7, 1991, because his heart wasn't in it. He's just not interested anymore. It was one of those things where he just didn't want to tour again. Izzy's been keeping himself more or less clean for quite a while now, and the chaos of being on the road, especially with the rest of us driving him crazy, he just couldn't deal with it. He's been 110% sober for the past two years, and even though I'm not shooting up or anything anymore. I'm still a nutcase when it comes to extracurricular activities. He tried to come back though. He came to a couple rehearsals, but he really wasn't there. He didn't care. His heart wasn't in it. Izzy's still gonna write with us, and he might make a few special appearances on the road, but he's no longer a touring member of the band. As for me, personally, I'd rather Izzy be happy. And this is what he wants [Guns N' Roses From The Inside An exclusive report by Lonn M. Friend; RIP March 1992]

And it got to a point where he didn't want to be involved in the amount of work that took, and the amount of stress and energy and sleepless nights it took to keep it going so it didn't fall apart. He just bailed and we took that really personally […] [slash#98">MTV?, 1992]

I love the guy dearly, so I don't want to belittle his character by saying anything about him. But he just got sick and tired of dealing with everything. I think more than anything he didn't want to do the amount of work that Guns N' Roses has to do to keep it together. I totally sold my soul to this thing, but Izzy wasn't that way. He didn't want to do videos or spend all those hours in the studio, and slowly but surely he started to drop out. […] In fact, I was really happy because I could never understand what was going on with him. Like even on stage, he would just sort of stand there--and that was the only time I'd see him on the road because he traveled separately. When he finally left, it was like a relief because there had been no communication at all [Los Angeles Times, August 1992]

This is well aligned with Axl, who at the time would also put it down to Izzy not wanting to give it all. To them, at this time, Izzy leaving was simply Izzy being Izzy, the rampant drug and alcohol in the band and the increasing tension between the band members as Axl created more and more friction, came secondary to explaining his departure. They presented a solid front, against Izzy.

Then in early 1993, Slash would present a more nuanced picture:

After, after the whole drug period… Um, I think everybody went in their own directions. And as far as dealing with getting off the drugs, everybody had their own approach. And from the time that we'd more or less quit, you know, dope and stuff. Um, Izzy had more or less lost interest in… I don't know if he lost interest or, I mean there could have a lot of phases, and I don't wanna, you know, put Izzy's personality into one little sentence. But what it seemed to me was that he'd lost interest in doing the work that was involved. He didn't feel comfortable with all the other guys. Because we'd all gone through this massive emotional experience in trying to get ourselves out of the slum. And he just didn't wanna run with the ball anymore. So, when we finally did get through that whole period and we, we got into the studio he wasn't that interested. He didn't have that much input, as far as recording and all that was concerned. And that was a really stressful time for the entire band anyway. And we went out on tour, and he finally quit. And the time that he was on tour, right before he quit, I was just really pissed off. Because it seemed like he'd show up and he would stand on the stage, for the alotted two and a half, three hours. And then, you know, split. I felt for that whole period of time that he was on stage, he really didn't wanna be there [Civil War Single / Making Fuckin' Boxes, March 1993]

This more friendly tone didn't last long. In May 1993 Gllby broke his arm and Izzy was asked to do a few shows. Izzy demanded a lot of money to do this shows, in fact izzy would admit that his main reason to do the shows was to demand money ["But the main reason was that for a year and a half since I left them they had never paid me all the money that I was owed, because there was a dispute about what was. So I told them, 'look, tell your people to call my people and write up some paperwork and pay me my fucking money'"], and Slash was again pissed at Izzy, very pissed:

About The Spaghetti Incident?: I love recording like this. During Appetite..., Lies and Use Your... I had to put up with Izzy the whole time. I never liked playing with him. It was wonderful to escape him on this record. It sounds tighter and so much cooler than anything we've done before. I always got irritated over Izzy's way of playing. It didn't sound right. Before "Spaghetti", we erased his guitar and Gilby put on a new one. It sounded perfect! [Okej, November? 1993] [TRANSLATED FROM SWEDISH TO ENGLISH]

I really looked forward to playing with him again and really hoped that he had changed. I booked a place before the first gigs in Tel Aviv to rehearse. But Izzy thought it was unnecessary, that it was just wasted time. He hadn't changed one bit and therefore the gigs turned out the way they did. [...] Izzy simply doesn't like playing rock at the level where we are right no. We understand it no and I'm personally very fucking disappointed at his previous behavior [Metal Zone, December 1993]

[The Spaghetti Incident?] was recorded the way I'd prefer to do any Guns N' Roses record. When we did Appetite and Use Your Illusion, I had to deal with Izzy. I never liked playing with Izzy the whole time I've been in this band. It was great not having to deal with him on this record. It sounds a lot tighter, or at least a little more cool than it sounded before. I always used to get bummed out about certain songs on Appetite that Izzy didn't play right. For this record, we took off all of Izzy's tracks and Gilby played them. I wasn't there when Gilby did it, but when I got the tapes back, it was a relief. It sounded perfect [Guitar Player, January 1994]

It was my idea to call Izzy; I thought it would be interesting. I didn't know he hadn't picked up his guitar in the last fucking year! It was really nice at first, because regardless of whatever animosity, it wasn't anything so deep-rooted that it didn't blow over. So, we hung out, we went shopping in London together, we had fun. Then right towards the end he turned around and did certain things that were so fucked. Right towards the fifth date, because of his hand Gilby still wasn't sure if he was going to be able to play, and Izzy all of a sudden turned around and stabbed us in the back again, asked for an amazing amount of money to do one show - it's like, 'I can't believe this, go home!'. That's the last time we talked. I don't know what's going on in his head...I have this great photo of Gilby, Izzy and Ronnie Wood together - the flunkies from hell [Kerrang! March 1994]

The rekindled animosity also colored Slash's descriptions of Izzy quitting the band, not admitting any fault on his part, or the rest of the band:

So we managed to get on tour during the making of the '...Illusions' albums. Then we took one short break - and Izzy quit two weeks before the next leg of the tour was to start! Without talking t the guys i the band, he called management and the accountants' office. I'll never forgive for that, because I've known him for so long and we've been through so much together, blah, blah, blah [Kerrang! January 1994]

And even before Izzy quit, he was pretty much phased out - he's even phased out of his own band. He's just not interested any more. But Izzy started to lose interest anyway, so that was another thing that made the record hard to make [Q Magazine, March 1994]

Then in 1995, Axl and Slash was in big trouble, and Slash would change his tune differently, opening up for the possibility that Izzy quit due to Axl (again, not admitting his own fault with the drugs and drinking):

On rumours of Izzy returning to the band in 1995: Izzy agrees with writing stuff but he's not interested in touring... He doesn't want to deal with Axl y'know? The Rockstar thing... Like me, he just wanna play... We never thought GNR would become so big [Folha De Sao Paulo Journal 21st of July 1995]

Izzy quit Guns because of the same bullshit that sort of forced me to take off for a while [Guns N' Roses: Is It All Over? Does Anyone Care? Metal Hammer November 1995]

Fast forward to modern times, here is Slash talking in his biography, nice to Izzy but insinuating Axl was the problem:

Izzy completed the tour, and I tried to talk him out of leaving a few times, but at the same time I couldn't blame him at all. "Hey, man, I know it's been hard, but I think we can turn it around," I remember telling him, "The shows are really great, man. The audiences are great, we're playing stadiums..." "I know," he said. "But, man, I can't...I just can't do it anymore." The way he looked at me at that moment said it all [Bozza, Anthony, & Slash (2007). Slash. Harper Entertainment: New York, p.344]

Now I know that bolting is Izzy's defense mechanism when he thinks things aren't quite right: he never makes a show of it, he just slips out and won't look back. […]. But when I asked him about [Axl firing Chris Weber from Hollywood Rose without talking to Izzy about it], he leveled a deahtly serious gaze at me, so I had no doubt that he was sincere. "It's pretty fucking simple," he said. "I just don't like being dictated to under any circumstances" [Bozza, Anthony, & Slash (2007). Slash. Harper Entertainment: New York]

Reading these quotes and putting them in the right context and time kind of gives you a clear indication of the ebb and flows of their relationship. Slash will blame Izzy when the band is angry with Izzy, blame Axl when Slash is angry with Axl, and later on, admit that Izzy left for good reasons although he rarely admits that the band members' drug use helped to force Izzy away.