"Cancel Culture" Opinions?

[Rovim]

10 minutes ago, action said:

 Suppose you are bullied by someone, you murder him

cause and effect

[action]

21 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

And there doesn't need to be a literal trial for any and all things. Legality is not morality.

agreed.

a trial leads to a "punishment", be it a monetary penality or jail time. the punishment is always in proportion to the crime. This is a result of the law and the workings of our court system. Also, not unimportant, the behaviour (the crime) that can lead to such a punishment, is well defined by law. this leads to a form of stability and certainty. People know what behaviour is forbidden, and they more or less know the punishment they can expect when they break the law.

but with cancel culture? The definition of "crime" changes on a daily basis. The punishment is mostly undefined, grossly disproportionate and unrestricted in time. Contracts are suspended, jobs are lost, nobody will hire you anymore, for decades to come, etc. The punishment is always of the biggest severity, regardless of the seriousness of "the crime". it is clear, that cancel culture is spinning out of control. By this point, people get cancelled for RIDICULOUS things, but the consequences are always severe, and much worse than what for example a thief would get as punishment, in court. 

[action]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

I'm so glad Louis CK is returning. He's a very close 2nd to Dave Chappelle as my all-time favourite standup comedian.

sometimes you see cancelled people return, yes

I hope johnny depp will be able to star in many more movies too, because he was truly a victim of a malicious woman who tried to cancel him. But even after being officially acquitted, you see movie companies reluctant to offer him roles.

what is the value of a trial anymore, in this twisted world? Seriously stuff for thought

[action]

5 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

 

That being said, isn't Johnny Depp a problematic addict that's difficult to work with? Abusive while filming or something.

they say that, yes

but what's also true, is that the POTC movies made a lot of money, so disney didn't mind

also, many stars have diva personalities. drugs, sex, hissy fits on stage... it's all nothing strange to these companies. as long as the money rolls in. So what if his colleagues are having a hard with him on the work floor. Working conditions are, after all, not disney's strong point anyway

for disney to use THAT argument not to go further with the series, is transparant as glass.

Disney cares for one thing: money. Not values. They pretend to stand for values, but it seems those values are thrown out of the window when they release, I dunno, star wars in china or something. Disney is a hypocritical company, and hypocritical companies offer hypocritical explanations

[SoulMonster]

6 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

What #CancelCulture 'is', is how I was being treated in the Rings of Power thread. A mindless frenzy of phony moralistic virtue signalling and a frantic desire to get on my dick for clout and to posture. Mob mentality or a desire to reach that.

And this is why I struggle to take most people who whine about "cancer culture" seriously, they just can't cope with being called out for their opinions and now they hide their indignation and butt hurt behind a new term because they know that will automatically induce support from other people who for varying reasons are on that side in the "culture war". It is nothing new, people have always had to face criticism and ridicule if they say something that goes against the grain, now they just use a new term for it. But for most part, it is assholes being called out for being assholes (not you, though).

[Dazey]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

And this is why I struggle to take most people who whine about "cancer culture" seriously, they just can't cope with being called out for their opinions and now they hide their indignation and butt hurt behind a new term because they know that will automatically induce support from other people who for varying reasons are on that side in the "culture war". It is nothing new, people have always had to face criticism and ridicule if they say something that goes against the grain, now they just use a new term for it. But for most part, it is assholes being called out for being assholes (not you, though).

I was listening to a guy on the radio, recanting an argument he once had with a self declared victim of cancel culture. 

"It's political correctness gone mad! You can't say anything these days without getting cancelled by all the woke lot!"

"What exactly is it that you want to say?"

"Well there's too many Pakistanis these days! They're everywhere and they all stink of curry! But if you dare say that you'll get cancelled!"

 

[ZoSoRose]

11 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

 

What #CancelCulture 'is', is how I was being treated in the Rings of Power thread.

 

How were you treated that was so wrong? Because I hurt your feelings? Can dish it but can’t take it? You came out swinging in that sad thread dude

[SoulMonster]

26 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

No, not me, asshole.

Seriously, that "(not you, though)" can be as sarcastic as you want but the reality is I don't do that, never have or will. I'm not an asshole, at least not for the reasons you go on about lol.

I wasn't being sarcastic. 

[SoulMonster]

26 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Except for getting angry, I stand by 100% of everything I said and I'm yet to be presented with the slightest reason to reconsider that.

Even the rant about there being a bunch of LGBT stuff shoehorned into a series which turned out to have no examples of LGBT? 

[Powderfinger]

When I was an alien cultures weren’t opinions.

[EvanG]

Leave Kurt out of this please.

[ZoSoRose]

7 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

 

 

On 9/6/2022 at 11:11 PM, Oldest Goat said:

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by ZoSoRose

[ZoSoRose]

You know what, pot shots are dumb right now. I’m sorry for continuing them here, @Oldest Goat

 

[ZoSoRose]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

Taking pot shots at me is always dumb, imo. I didn't get a chance to read what you said so I'll assume it was extremely bigoted.

In all seriousness you seem to be projecting stuff onto me due to taking an emotional ball and running with it. Not because of some machiavellian crusade. If you're gonna stop and calm down then that's good, we all have our moments, no harm no foul really.

I didn’t say anything, I just quoted posts of you contradicting yourself but I don’t really see the point since you are going to post how you are going to post no matter what. 
 

I still think what I think and don’t view anything I’ve said in the LotR thread that isn’t about LotR thread as something to take back

Edited October 28, 2022 by ZoSoRose

[action]

4 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

You know what, pot shots are dumb right now. I’m sorry for continuing them here, @Oldest Goat

 

that's a lot of apologizing you're having to do lately

 

[action]

today is a good day in the war against cancel culture

elon musk is now twitter's chief and has sacked the top 4 of the company already. one of those needed to be removed physically, lol

this is going to do wonders for freedom of speech

twitter was a haven for cancelling nobodies, but things are about to change.

grab some popcorn, this will be getting interesting

[ZoSoRose]

18 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Yeah, because I never made any false claims.

 

On 9/6/2022 at 11:11 PM, Oldest Goat said:

… Ithink it's kind of messed up to shoehorn a bunch of LGBT stuff into Tolkien's world …

It is a fictional fucking world we don't need to constantly be exposed to LGBT shit, seriously shut the fuck up about it lol. Do we ever get a break or does it need to literally be fucking everywhere? At this point in time, after having the sanctimonious LGBT agenda so constantly, obnoxiously, clumsily shoved in my line of sight; if I were stupid, I would indulge myself in becoming vehemently anti-gay etc just out of spite.

 

10 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I didn't get a chance to read what you said so I'll assume it was extremely bigoted.

 

You assumed right

[SoulMonster]

There were rumours prior to the release of Rings of Power that it would feature LGBT characters. This rumour was used for all it was worth to rile up emotions against the series among everyone who are against LGBT people, or equal rights for such people, and those who are just struggling to fit in a society with modern thoughts on sexuality, inclusion and equality; and they struck this unholy alliance with Tolkien purists who would be against any deviation whatsoever from their interpretation of Tolkien works or how it has been interpreted previously in media. It led its life among ratty YouTube pundits and more seedy corners of the web. A lot of these people ought to feel ashamed of themselves now, either for believing the rumours and helping spread hate, or for spreading hate themselves. 

[action]

I have not seen ROP, I can only appreciate this series based on other people's opinions.

It's not always possible to find the time to spend hours and hours, on a series you're not interested in. Life is too short to throw it away at a thoroughly sub-par and mediocre series like ROP.

This lack of personal experience with the series however, should not limit my ability to appreciate and evaluate what the series means in today's culture, as evidence by the reactions of people who did watch the series.

There is an overwhelming sense, that ROP is a vehicle to propagate certain political points. It is propaganda. With propaganda, it is very, very difficult to pinpoint where and when in the series, people are openly manipulated. Propaganda is subtle by nature. Or, the best propaganda is. If propaganda is too obvious about it's intentions, people would notice and the propaganda would lose its effect.

The nazi minister of propaganda, goebbels, knew this all too well:

[ZoSoRose]

6 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

You are still just repeating the same misguided points over and over despite the fact everything has already been addressed and explained multiple times, in multiple ways, over a prolonged period. Either you're a bitter troll or you're genuinely disatisfied with the clarification I kindly wasted my time on. You feel you're owed more.

Despite the way you're behaving towards me and what you apparently think of me, I'm not glad you're so upset and confused particularly since it's due to something I've said. I am not a particularly patient man but I am trying here. Do you appreciate that or are you just wanting to continue trolling?

Are you wanting to have an adult discussion with me and you'd like me to try to better explain myself and directly address those quotes?

How am I trolling? In fact, I tried to walk away man!

I don’t think I’m a troll, I just didn’t like some posts and responded based on that. I don’t know how you would have preferred I addressed things- it’s not like you were fastening your finest monocle, putting on a kettle of tea, and sitting down at the table for a chat. I didn’t either. Seems like our demeanor matched up fine to me.

If me throwing laughing emojis and some insults around upsets you that much, I don’t know what to tell you

It is a tough and shitty subject that has probably become overly politicized now. If a gay or whatever, major character is put into a big franchise like Star Wars, it instantly becomes a giant thing among bigots. It happened with Kellie Marie Tran and even John Boyega. I’m not even talking about their characters, you can hate on the writing all you want, but as soon as a poc was cast as a lead in a big movie like SW- it became a point of contention among certain people. I’m not saying that’s you, but shit like that happens. You get wild extremes like Action who are vehemently against representation.
 

I actually do kind of get where you’re coming from. I just think RoP was a bad thread to go off on since it seems there wasn’t even representation in that show, anyways. If a movie like “All Quiet on the Western Front” came out with shoe horned casting, it’d perturb me, too. My gf loves the super progressive comics and shows and all that. Like Action, that kind of thing doesn’t hit my interest as much. Just being honest. Sometimes I feel barraged too but that content isn’t meant for me, and it means the world to a lot of people. Awesome. There still should be a line between that and keeping every big franchise an exclusive club. There has to be a natural middle ground. I think people get more pissed about added diversity now because it’s change and a cultural shift and eventually things will get more naturally inclusive 

At the same time, it still kind of sucks with where we are at. At the heart of every human is someone who wants to feel like their identity, personality, passions, and very being matter. Mass media and entertainment is a big part of that, and of course people should feel like we matter. Who is to say what the “line” is with what is acceptable and what isn’t? Does it really hurt to have more representation in some old franchises? I am admitting I didn’t watch RoP, but from what I could tell it was just with casting. Why is that so bad? Now, if Mary and Pippin took 10 minutes out of The Two Towers to give a speech on representation or if Han Solo did, sure, that’s preachy and pandering- but at the very minimum I don’t get how casting diversity is an issue. People are different. It’s a thing. 

Idk, I’m just tired. Everyone is tired. Fuck the internet and the media for all the division. Everyone should just get along and live and let live. 

Alright, I think I made it through with a “real” post

Edited October 28, 2022 by ZoSoRose

[action]

wow, an actual civilised exchange of points between two posters, on this board

I sense a disturbance in the force

[downzy]

On 10/27/2022 at 1:36 AM, Oldest Goat said:

What #CancelCulture 'is', is how I was being treated in the Rings of Power thread. A mindless frenzy of phony moralistic virtue signalling and a frantic desire to get on my dick for clout and to posture. Mob mentality or a desire to reach that.

How is engaging with your opinion in a critical way an example of cancel culture?  

Were you not allowed to make it?  Were you not given plenty of opportunities to defend your argument against those who disagreed with you?

What I'm starting to realize is that for many, cancel culture is simply a rhetorical shield used to dismiss any and all criticism.  I heard a father a few weeks ago on a podcast talk about how highschool kids are feeling less inclined to share their opinion out of fear that they'll be "cancelled."  What I think is more accurate is that people just want to have their opinions accepted without question; that for too many, one or two of opinions are synonymous with who they are.  I think we should be careful of labeling people as racists because they hold opinions that don't hold up to scrutiny, but we shouldn't also shy away from calling out opinions that are problematic - whether on the grounds of race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sex.  

There are legitimate criticisms of cancel culture that should be taken seriously.  Holding people to account for opinions they once held but no longer subscribe to is nonsense.  People losing job opportunities for something they said in high school is nuts.

But receiving criticism for a publicly stating opinion that many disagree with is not cancel culture.  You're not about to lose your job or your social circle because you posted an opinion about the LOTR show on a GNR fan forum.  Your posts haven't been removed nor have I nor any staff member hidden any of your responses.  You're freely allowed to state your opinion.   What that thread is an example of is you stating an opinion that many (including myself) felt worth genuine criticism.  Suggesting that such criticism was nothing more than a dick measuring contest by those you disagree with says more about the sensitivity to having your opinion questioned than it does about those who questioned it.  

[downzy]

12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Things like that German mental midget going "REEEE REEEEE HOMOPHOBE" for pages and pages isn't a critique of my opinions.

Except that's not at all an accurate or fair description of almost all the criticisms directed towards your opinion.  I don't think anyone outside you and one other poster here would find any truth to your assessment by the poster you're describing.  You simply didn't like and agree with the accusation regardless of the reasons given for the assessment.  That doesn't mean there wasn't validity in her reasoning or that others would agree with her. 

16 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

It's not a critque of my opinions when SoulMonster asks for an explanation of what I meant in the OP on page one and then he dismisses that explanation because it's not as dramatic as he wants it to be and claims I'm shifting the goalposts because the explanation wasn't in the OP on page one.

Again, that's not what myself and others read.  SM's critique was largely based on questions he asked and you answered.  You don't have to agree with his critique, but disagreement doesn't invalidate his perspective so long as he's providing valid reasons to back it up.  

Again, none of this is "cancel culture."  You simply didn't appreciate having your opinion criticized because you chose to disagree with them.  You and everyone else were allowed to post whatever position you wanted for a week or two before the discussion began turning on itself and there was little value in keeping it going. 

19 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

That's the kind of shit I'm referring to in that thread which is a microcosm example of what would be cancel culture if it were on a larger scale. I was allowed to make a defense which was promptly and repetitively ignored in favour of them going apeshit making a mountain out of a molehill. It's not that I feel I was cancelled, I wasn't

It wasn't ignored, but simply disagreed with.   Myself and others felt your "defence" did little to support your original position when held up to scrutiny.  Having an opinion scrutinized in a manner you disagree with isn't being cancelled.

21 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Did I not change the thread title and concede I have a bit of a temper?

Well, you changed the title to something even more dramatic, at which point I changed it to the neutral title it currently has now.

21 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Have I not made efforts to extend olive branches and explain myself?

Again, you have explained yourself.  The process of explaining doesn't guarantee agreement.  Failure to find agreement doesn't render you canceled.

 

[downzy]

52 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

What is problematic/bigoted about my views?

That's not the point of this discussion.  This thread isn't about you or anyone in particular.

It's a discussion about cancel culture, what it is, where it's a problem, and where it's not.  Having your views criticized on a show about orcs and elves for being problematic when it comes to race and sexual orientation isn't a form of cancel culture.  It's a criticism - one that you can accept or rebut.  

 

[axlslash]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:30 PM, downzy said:

That's not the point of this discussion.  This thread isn't about you or anyone in particular.

It's a discussion about cancel culture, what it is, where it's a problem, and where it's not.  Having your views criticized on a show about orcs and elves for being problematic when it comes to race and sexual orientation isn't a form of cancel culture.  It's a criticism - one that you can accept or rebut.  

 

"Cancel Culture is horrible! People should be able to say whatever they want."

"I think your opinions are bad"

"You can't say that!"

And so, the great debate proceeds as it always has, always does, and always will. I applaud your efforts to talk sense, Downzy. Don't see it going any better than it has, I'm afraid.