Covid-19 Thread

[Whiskey Rose]

6 minutes ago, downzy said:

Also, the data suggests that the very few (again, we’re talking about 3-4 out of 100k) who do develop heart issues due to the vaccine are treated with no expected long term consequences.

 

How can we possibly know that at this point? 

But again, that is what I am saying. Parents must weigh the risks. That 3 or 4 is still someone's child .  Charts and graphs can give some info, but it's still a scary scenario for parents.  We need to have some empathy on both sides of the equation. 

[ZoSoRose]

I have a coworker struggling in the hospital. Didn’t have the vaccine. Wants it now

[downzy]

7 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

How can we possibly know that at this point? 

We know this because those who developed myocarditis were treated to the point that it won’t redevelop or pose issues down the road. Myocarditis can be treated. It is rare to see long term consequences after a full recovery.

9 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Parents must weigh the risks. That 3 or 4 is still someone's child .  Charts and graphs can give some info, but it's still a scary scenario for parents.

Not really. Choices are and should be made with the best information available. Would it be ideal not to have anyone vaccinated?  Of course. But it’s not one made in a vacuum. It’s a relative proposition. You do this the risk is this. You don’t do it and the risk is this.  

In the case of covid, the risks are substantially higher if you do not get vaccinated.  That’s not up for debate. It’s a fact. If you’re choosing not to get vaccinated or your kids vaccinated, your ability to assess risk needs improvement. 

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

How can we possibly know that at this point? 

But again, that is what I am saying. Parents must weigh the risks. That 3 or 4 is still someone's child .  Charts and graphs can give some info, but it's still a scary scenario for parents.  We need to have some empathy on both sides of the equation. 

As a father myself, the choice is obvious: Choose the option where the available data suggests the least risk of long-term damage. And that is clearly the vaccine, the numbers are clear from the clinical trials (even though anti-vaxxers do their best to scare people with exaggerated anecdotes about side effects) . 

And I have to make the decision: Covid-19 or the vaccine (and then the disease). There is no third option at the moment and there likely won't be. I cannot stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away, that is for all practice purposes choosing Covid-19 for my children. 

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I have a coworker struggling in the hospital. Didn’t have the vaccine. Wants it now

I’m sorry to hear.

It’s sad to hear this situation play out time and time again. 

[downzy]

 

[Whiskey Rose]

Ok I think I finally got it. 

Concerned about your child getting covid and it’s side effects = Good Parent

Concerned about myocarditis or blood clots or other side effects from the vaccine = Bad Parent. 

Thank goodness it’s so easy to slot  them into these two groups. 

[downzy]

19 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Ok I think I finally got it. 

Concerned about your child getting covid and it’s side effects = Good Parent

Concerned about myocarditis or blood clots or other side effects from the vaccine = Bad Parent. 

Thank goodness it’s so easy to slot  them into these two groups. 

But those concerns should not have equal weight.  

No one is saying you shouldn’t be concerned about your child suffering from side effects from the vaccines. My daughter is four and won’t be vaccine eligible for awhile, but when the time comes I’ll still worry about any complications from the vaccines.

But I’ll put those concerns into context.

I worry more about her catching covid than the vaccines since all the data we have present shows that Covid-19 is a bigger threat to not only her health but to the health of those around her (grandparents, parents, friends, teachers, strangers, etc).

Both are concerns, but they are not even close to be equal concerns.

It would be like going to the beach and being more concerned about getting chomped by a shark than skin damage caused by the sun. Both are possibilities, but one has a greater probability of actually happening. 

[SoulMonster]

30 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Ok I think I finally got it. 

Concerned about your child getting covid and it’s side effects = Good Parent

Concerned about myocarditis or blood clots or other side effects from the vaccine = Bad Parent. 

Thank goodness it’s so easy to slot  them into these two groups. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting you are a bad parent. Worrying and being afraid of making the wrong choice is very much part of being a parent. It goes beyond vaccines. It comes from the love we have for our kids. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by SoulMonster

[Popcorn crew]

5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

That's great news Hope you will fully recover quickly. 

Thank you my friend. If you ever travel Croatia or we meet on concert beers are on me.

[SoulMonster]

Re: bad parenting. It doesn't sit well with me to suggest it is bad parenting to choose not to vaccinate your child, or to choose to vaccinate your child. I believe the vast majority of parents try to make the right decisions for their children. We try to navigate as best as possible and set the right course for our kids. Making honest mistakes is something all parents do, and that doesn't necessary make us bad parents.

And I extend that graciously to anti-vaxxers too who refuse to let their kids get vaccinated. Although it is a wildly wrong decision to make which flies in the face of what we know are facts, I thoroughly believe most of the parents do it because they genuinely think it is the best decision for their children. And that's a bit sad, of course. Just as much as we should stop this for the childrens' sake, we should stop it for the parents' sake because it must be absolute hell to realize you made the wrong decision which hurt your child based on nothing but your own ignorance and failure to separate facts from lies.

The constructive way going forward, rather than antagonize anti-vaxxer parents by insinuating they are bad parents, is perhaps to try to understand how they can arrive at such fundamentally flawed conclusions. And I think the fact that parents can grow up and be bombarded with lies about vaccines and safety and not be bombarded with facts, resulting in them almost inevitably making the wrong decisions, is a testament to a failure of society more than it is a testament to the failure of parents. For some reason, we are not able to sufficiently stop the spread of lies and misinformation. We have organized ourselves in echo chambers that are very resistant to opposition and contrary messages. We live together, but in a way in very different worlds, in alternative realities. And it is getting worse.

We cannot stop this social fragmentation from happening, unless we take down Internet which has given us the freedom to organize ourselves in small communities of the likeminded, but what we can do is teach children about epistemology - how we can separate fact from fiction, how we can know something is truth and how something isn't, how we can spot flawed arguments. We need to prepare children to not blindly accept weak arguments, even when it comes from family and friends, and even when it is dominating, but to ask for evidence and data and to trust those who are naturally trustworthy over those who aren't. Critical thinking can be taught, and it looks sadly lacking among many. I think that's the only way we can fight this madness, and hopefully do better. 

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Well, the new variant is in the US.  I mean it was not a surprise to me. Anyway, still over 1000 unvaccinated people dying from covid. I still don't understand people not getting this vaccine. And with the new variant I think a booster should be taken too.

My daughter gets her second shot next week. I'm not sure if doctors think children need boosters, but she has time and I'm sure by then, they will know more about this new variant.

Stay safe.

[downzy]

The bad news:

The good news:

The rate of hospitalization among those who test positive is so far similar to the hospitalization rate of SA’s third wave (delta).  This might indicate omicron is more contagious but less dangerous.

We’ll have to wait and see. 

[downzy]

Also not great news if you’re banking on “natural immunity”

 

[ZoSoRose]

I think the mass omicron coverage has been good- will lead to more people getting first doses and boosters

[alfierose]

9 hours ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Its very easy to be cavalier about this unless you have a teenage son.  It's a hard decision to make..."do I put my son at risk of heart damage"  (bc myocarditis can certainly lead to that) or "do I put my son at risk of covid and any future complications from that."  It's not an easy decision and I don't envy parents in this situation. I certainly wouldn't judge them for whatever they decide. 

I have 3 sons aged 20, 17 and 14. The two eldest have had two vaccines and the youngest one so far. I know anecdotes are not evidence but all of them have been absolutely fine.

I did worry a bit about the data on myocarditis but the risk of similar complications is even higher for the virus. They all made their own decision to have it in the end so that made it easier although I did have to sign a consent form for the youngest.

[alfierose]

1 hour ago, ZoSoRose said:

I think the mass omicron coverage has been good- will lead to more people getting first doses and boosters

I'm due a booster but the booking system currently will only allocate you a date after 182 days from your last shot which for me is just into the new year.

Boris announced this week they are closing the gap to 3 months but the system hasn't been upgraded yet so none of the clinics will allow you to use the drop in service under 182 days. I'm hoping this changes next week because I want to get it before doing the usual xmas mingling and not after.

[downzy]

A reassuring thread about Omicron if you’re vaccinated (not so reassuring if you are not and relying on natural immunity):

#getvaccinated

[downzy]

Yikes!

 

[Gavin82]

Ireland brings in new restrictions ahead of Christmas due to 'very stark' health advice (msn.com)

 

Ireland brings in NEW restrictions ALL nightclubs to CLOSE until 9th Jan

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

This new variant is now in over 2 dozen countries including the US. The doctors said by spring of 2022 we all might need another booster against this strain. Will it ever end?

I do hope more people realize they need to get vaccinated and continue to wear a mask. It's  all we have right now.

Unvaccinated people are still get sick and some are still dying. A lot of hospitals are being overrun again and nurses are badly needed in many US states. It seems like we're back to where we were in 2020. It's not good 

[Coma16]

19 minutes ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

This new variant is now in over 2 dozen countries including the US. The doctors said by spring of 2022 we all might need another booster against this strain. Will it ever end?

I do hope more people realize they need to get vaccinated and continue to wear a mask. It's  all we have right now.

Unvaccinated people are still get sick and some are still dying. A lot of hospitals are being overrun again and nurses are badly needed in many US states. It seems like we're back to where we were in 2020. It's not good 

Will it ever end? Sure, but you're not ready to stand up and join the partisan fight 

[downzy]

31 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Will it ever end? Sure, but you're not ready to stand up and join the partisan fight 

You mean the fight over efforts to reduce transmission?  What partisan fight?

[Whiskey Rose]

On 12/2/2021 at 5:06 PM, alfierose said:

I have 3 sons aged 20, 17 and 14. The two eldest have had two vaccines and the youngest one so far. I know anecdotes are not evidence but all of them have been absolutely fine.

I did worry a bit about the data on myocarditis but the risk of similar complications is even higher for the virus. They all made their own decision to have it in the end so that made it easier although I did have to sign a consent form for the youngest.

I'm glad they are all fine, I'm sure that was a great relief for you and I'm sure the majority will be fine.  But you do see what I'm saying, bc you yourself worried about it.  My issue is with people making parents out to be bad parents if they were hesitating at all.  Everyone is just trying to make the best decision for the health of their children, and if they are hesitant about getting the vaccine just now I don't blame them. 

As you say, anecdotes are not evidence...but while your 3 are fine, my coworkers daughter just spent weeks in the hospital with blood clots in her neck and head.. debilitating migraines and the doctors were very worried about the pressure behind one of her eyes which they could not get under control.  She still cannot yet go back to school.  This may be a 1 in 1000 case, but it is "their"  1. It is always "someone's 1." They thought they were doing the right thing, but I can tell you they did not think that when she was in the icu.  I'm not saying it can't go the other way, and some parents right now are probably saying the very same thing if their child is in the icu and they were not vaccinated. I'm saying it can go Both ways which some people don't want to acknowledge. So it's not so black and white, that is all I am trying to say, so lets have a little compassion for one another instead of being so quick to judge people and calling them stupid or selfish if they are a bit hesitant or want to wait for a bit. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Whiskey Rose
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[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Whiskey Rose said:

I'm glad they are all fine, I'm sure that was a great relief for you and I'm sure the majority will be fine.  But you do see what I'm saying, bc you yourself worried about it.  My issue is with people making parents out to be bad parents if they were hesitating at all.  Everyone is just trying to make the best decision for the health of their children, and if they are hesitant about getting the vaccine just now I don't blame them. 

As you say, anecdotes are not evidence...but while your 3 are fine, my coworkers daughter just spent weeks in the hospital with blood clots in her neck and head.. debilitating migraines and the doctors were very worried about the pressure behind one of her eyes which they could not get under control.  She still cannot yet go back to school.  This may be a 1 in 1000 case, but it is "their"  1. It is always "someone's 1." They thought they were doing the right thing, but I can tell you they did not think that when she was in the icu.  I'm not saying it can't go the other way, and some parents right now are probably saying the very same thing if their child is in the icu and they were not vaccinated. I'm saying it can go Both ways which some people don't want to acknowledge. So it's not so black and white, that is all I am trying to say, so lets have a little compassion for one another instead of being so quick to judge people and calling them stupid or selfish if they are a bit hesitant or want to wait for a bit. 

I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim the vaccines don't come with a risk of adverse side effects. All drugs come with side effects. Everyone should know this. 

What is being said is that there is much less risk of getting ill from the vaccines' side effects than there is of getting ill from being infected with Covid-19. Haven't you seen this being said numerous times in this thread already? 

So this is not a case of choosing the option with zero risk, it is a case of choosing the option with the least risk. 

And I get that parents are worried their kids will be very unlucky and get ill despite the parents making the best choice, or that they find it hard to make the right decision when they are bombarded by conflicting information. No one has said anything negative about any parents for feeling this way. Frankly, I don't know what discussion you have been following.