Covid-19 Thread

[SoulMonster]

6 hours ago, Whiskey Rose said:

But what if it does. If it's your last resort, one final thing you could try for a spouse, don't you want to have the choice to try it? 

Uhm, I think that some drugs that haven't been approved for a medical condition can actually be used as a last ditch attempt when a person would otherwise die. There's an opening for that. But I thought you were talking about doctors prescribing un-approved drugs to normally sick people instead of prescribing what has been proven to work.

[Homefuck]

10 hours ago, downzy said:

His comments are based on the information he's getting from scientists in the field: "But all the scientists I’ve talked to... are like ‘This is not going to be good.’”

 

I never made that claim.  But there are reports that smaller kids in South Africa are affected and require medical attention in a hospital in ways that were not comparable prior variants:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-29/young-kids-make-up-10-of-hospital-cases-in-omicron-epicenter

 

Sorry, misinterpreted what you wrote

[Sisyphus]

23 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we would have to take an annual vaccine. Just as for the flu.

Nothing magical about vaccines, and we know that for some viral diseases the evolution rate means we will have to continuously develop new vaccines.

But we are not forced to take the annual vaccine for the flu in order to live at least somewhat freely.

[Sisyphus]

On 11/30/2021 at 1:05 PM, SoulMonster said:

Yeah, I am still not going to comment on what your media has told you 

As for vaccine restrictions, there is no denying that the general trend is that the higher the vaccination update, the less deaths; and that the less deaths one have, the less restrictions are needed. 

I honestly have no idea why these things seem to be so mysterious to you. 

Don't patronize me. The media all over the world is just rehashing the official narrative. There's nothing mysterious about it.

Why are countires with a high vaccination rate reinstating covid restrictions if the death toll is marginal?

We are led to believe that the sustainability of the health care system is top priority otherwise we are facing a potential collapse. That means that the number of confirmed cases is secondary to keeping people out of hospitals and preventing them from dying. As long as people are getting over the disease with relatively mild symptoms there's no need for continuous oppression. Yet ... 

I repeat. If the vaccine is successful, why are countries with a high vaccination rate reinstating restrictions?

And since you're all over every post in this thread I find it interesing you couldn't muster a response in regards to shocking scenes from Australia, kinda in line with your MO of ignoring the inconvenient truth.

I'm not against vaccines. I'll go ever futher. I'm contemplating on getting vaccinated. I have more than one reason for doing so. Because I do think that the vaccine can be beneficial to some people but not nearly as effective as propagated. I'm also against forced vaccination and using the vaccine as a condition for employment or other forms of liberties.

I'm against opression, paranoia, intimidation and illogical restrictions. And firm believers such as yourself have - in my opinion - provided a template on how to keep everyone in line. The mask, for example, is a sign of obedience first and foremost, not the means of safety.

This pandemic has taught us once more that if you scare the shit out of people they will agree to anything. They will give up anything just to feel save again. But the safety doesn't come. Just a new letter from the greek alphabet and we're back to square one.

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Sisyphus

[SoulMonster]

52 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

But we are not forced to take the annual vaccine for the flu in order to live at least somewhat freely.

And the main reason for that is if course that covid-19 is more dangerous than the flu. Not the only reason, but the main reason. 

I wouldn't say I am forced to take the Covid-19 vaccine, either, but maybe strongly encouraged...increasingly  But I have no problems with forced vaccinations (not that I am in favor of that here in Norway now), I am not afraid of syringes. 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Sisyphus said:

Why are countires with a high vaccination rate reinstating covid restrictions if the death toll is marginal?

Because obviously they don't think the death toll is marginal. 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Sisyphus said:

We are led to believe that the sustainability of the health care system is top priority otherwise we are facing a potential collapse. That means that the number of confirmed cases is secondary to keeping people out of hospitals and preventing them from dying. As long as people are getting over the disease with relatively mild symptoms there's no need for continuous oppression. Yet. 

Well, that is your opinion but obviously most governments disagree with you and think that some restrictions are occasionally required even after vaccination has been started, either because the uptake is too low (as in your country), because the vaccines alone aren't sufficient in densely populated countries even at 90% uptake. 

Furthermore, there is something remarkably pathetic in referring to having to endure a syringe injection as "oppression". Get over yourself! 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Sisyphus said:

And since you're all over every post in this thread I find it interesing you couldn't muster a response in regards to shocking scenes from Australia, kinda in line with your MO of ignoring the inconvenient truth.

That encouraging people to get vaccinated is oppression, is not a truth but your opinion. 

As for Australia, I am not updated on what happened there, so you will have to fill me in. But if I were to guess, I assume anti-vaxxers were protesting against restrictions because they fail to grasp the importance of vaccinations in reducing deaths from a new disease while they obsess about "losing their freedom" from having to have vaccine passes or not being allowed to go around spreading disease to others? 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Sisyphus said:

I'm against opression, paranoia, intimidation and illogical restrictions. And firm believers such as yourself have - in my opinion - provided a template on how to keep everyone in line. The mask, for example, is a sign of obedience first and foremost, not the means of safety.

I don't see any oppression or intimidation. Not here in Norway, maybe where you live, but I reckon you are wildly exaggerating the fact that not getting vaccinated is being penalized. 

I see a lot of paranoia, from people being overly afraid of the disease, and overly afraid of the vaccines. 

I can't talk for all the various kinds of restrictions imposed around the world, and whether they made sense or not, both in size and timing. I am sure governments have made mistakes, both by being too slow to introduce restrictions, or to quick. But generally speaking, as you know, I am not at all opposed to the principle of restrictions to reduce deaths from a new disease. But there are costs involved and I don't envy politicians having to make these choices. 

I don't know what I am supposed to be a firm believer of? That the vaccines work is not open to belief, that is a fact, and the same for social restrictions. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by SoulMonster

[SoulMonster]

Anti-vaxxers:

- "The vaccine is dangerous!" No, it isn't. There are of course side effects, but these side effects are substantially milder than the symptoms of the disease. 

- "The vaccine doesn't work!" It does. 

- "The vaccine isn't properly tested!" They are more thoroughly tested than most therapies, and have now been administered through billions of doses - the ultimate test. 

- "We don't know anything about the vaccines long-term effects!" Wrong, and we know a whole lot more about the long-term effects of the vaccine than the long-term effect of the disease. 

- "The disease isn't real!" Err, it is. 

- "The disease isn't dangerous to me!" That might be true, but you don't know that. Still, it poses a bigger threat to your health than the vaccine so it makes little sense not to take it. Additionally, by being vaccinated you reduce the likelihood of spreading the disease to someone else, someone who might potentially die from it, and you don't want that, do you?

- "We should use alternative treatments!" Not ideally, it is better to go with evidence-based therapies where we know the efficacy and safety. It is highly ironic that it is frequently the same people who express worry over the vaccines safety who then recommend unapproved, experimental drugs. Highly ironic. 

- "The restrictions are unnecessary!" Oh yeah? What do you propose then? 

- "We are being oppressed!" Get over yourself. Man up and take the shot. 

- "Our freedom is taken away from us!" It is part of our social contract that we allow governments to restrict our freedom, whether that is through speed limits, laws against theft, or temporary restrictions on movement during an outgoing viral outbreak. If you don't like society, leave. And if you disagree with your politicians, elect someone else. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by SoulMonster

[downzy]

32 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Anti-vaxxers:

- "The vaccine is dangerous!" No, it isn't. There are of course side effects, but these side effects are substantially milder than the symptoms of the disease. 

- "The vaccine doesn't work!" It does. 

- "The vaccine isn't properly tested!" They are more thoroughly tested than most therapies, and have now been administered through billions of doses - the ultimate test. 

- "We don't know anything about the vaccines long-term effects!" Wrong, and we know a whole lot more about the long-term effects of the vaccine than the long-term effect of the disease. 

- "The disease isn't real!" Err, it is. 

- "We should use alternative treatments!" Not ideally, it is better to go with evidence-based therapies where we know the efficacy and safety. It is highly ironic that it is frequently the same people who express worry over the vaccines safety who then recommend unapproved, experimental drugs. Highly ironic. 

- "The restrictions are unnecessary!" Oh yeah? What do you propose then? 

- "We are being oppressed!" Get over yourself. Man up and take the shot. 

- "Our freedom is taken away from us!" It is part of our social contract that we allow governments to restrict our freedom, whether that is through speed limits, laws against theft, or temporary restrictions on movement during an outgoing viral outbreak. If you don't like society, leave. And if you disagree with your politicians, elect someone else. 

Good run down.

My major issue with the anti-vax crowd is how they seemingly have no ability to grasp the concept of probability.  Or they do, but ignore it out of cognitive dissonance or the need to adhere to the tribe.

The one dumb argument that keeps getting reiterated is how the vaccines don't work and if they did no one should care if another person is vaccinated. 

They like to argue that a vaccinated person is just as likely to become infected as an unvaccinated person, and hence the vaccines are pointless.  Except all current published science shows that unvaccinated people are six times more likely to become infected and significantly more likely to suffer harsher symptoms, hospitalization, and death.  They just seem incapable of understanding probability, as if demonstrating how a vaccinated person became infected is proof that the vaccines don't work.  I chalk it up to either flat out ignorance, intellectual deficiencies, or crass disingenuousness with little or no concern for the facts.  This is to say nothing about how a greater pool of unvaccinated people increases case numbers, puts everyone at greater risk (including vaccinated), and takes up hospital resources that affects everyone.  

It's all a tad maddening. 

[PatrickS77]

47 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Anti-vaxxers:

- "The vaccine is dangerous!" No, it isn't. There are of course side effects, but these side effects are substantially milder than the symptoms of the disease. 

- "The vaccine doesn't work!" It does. 

- "The vaccine isn't properly tested!" They are more thoroughly tested than most therapies, and have now been administered through billions of doses - the ultimate test. 

- "We don't know anything about the vaccines long-term effects!" Wrong, and we know a whole lot more about the long-term effects of the vaccine than the long-term effect of the disease. 

- "The disease isn't real!" Err, it is. 

- "We should use alternative treatments!" Not ideally, it is better to go with evidence-based therapies where we know the efficacy and safety. It is highly ironic that it is frequently the same people who express worry over the vaccines safety who then recommend unapproved, experimental drugs. Highly ironic. 

- "The restrictions are unnecessary!" Oh yeah? What do you propose then? 

- "We are being oppressed!" Get over yourself. Man up and take the shot. 

- "Our freedom is taken away from us!" It is part of our social contract that we allow governments to restrict our freedom, whether that is through speed limits, laws against theft, or temporary restrictions on movement during an outgoing viral outbreak. If you don't like society, leave. And if you disagree with your politicians, elect someone else. 

It's telling that you ommit the most obvious one. "The disease is not that dangerous. Most people do not end up in a hospital. Some do not even feel that they have it.". If it were, they would be more in a hurry to get vaccinated. Thus not everyone who is wary of getting vaccinated is anti-vax per se.

Edited December 1, 2021 by PatrickS77

[downzy]

18 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

It's telling that you ommit the most obvious one. "The disease is not that dangerous. Most people do not end up in a hospital. Some do not even feel that they have it.". If it were, they would be more in a hurry to get vaccinated. Thus not everyone who is wary of getting vaccinated is anti-vax per se.

Change disease with riding in a car. 

Replace vaccines with seat belts. 

Would you get into a car without wearing a seatbelt even the the odds of an accident are low and the odds of severe injury are even lower at reduced speeds?  

[PatrickS77]

10 minutes ago, downzy said:

Change disease with riding in a car. 

Replace vaccines with seat belts. 

Would you get into a car without wearing a seatbelt even the the odds of an accident are low and the odds of severe injury are even lower at reduced speeds?  

Actually, I do. In citytraffic I'm usually without a seat belt. I only put that on on the motorway/freeway where I drive fast. But either way, that's not the same thing.

Edited December 1, 2021 by PatrickS77

[lame ass security]

19 minutes ago, downzy said:

Change disease with riding in a car. 

Replace vaccines with seat belts. 

Would you get into a car without wearing a seatbelt even the the odds of an accident are low and the odds of severe injury are even lower at reduced speeds?  

They're putting all their faith in the airbags, I guess.😄

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

2 minutes ago, lame ass security said:

They're putting all their faith in the airbags, I guess.😄

Honestly, how many airbags have been recalled for exploding and even killing people? There's so much shit out there to think and worry about.

If we all got vaccinated and wore a mask for a time, covid might slow down or just die out. I saw on CNN that only 56% of Americans are vaccinated. I don't think that's very good.

Now with the new variant that doctors aren't sure about yet, I feel we need to go back to wearing a mask and avoiding large crowds. The sports venues need to go back to distancing and not having the whole stadium full. A lot of the Dallas Cowboys players are out with covid, so that shows too many people in one area isn't good right now.

15 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

Actually, I do. In citytraffic I'm usually without a seat belt. I only put that on on the motorway/freeway where I drive fast. But either way, that's not the same thing.

Most states will give you a ticket for not wearing a seat belt. Good luck with that. Wearing a seat belt saves lives.

[PatrickS77]

20 minutes ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Most states will give you a ticket for not wearing a seat belt. Good luck with that. Wearing a seat belt saves lives.

In 26 years not one. So thanks, I guess.

[Coma16]

3 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

Actually, I do. In citytraffic I'm usually without a seat belt. I only put that on on the motorway/freeway where I drive fast. But either way, that's not the same thing.

Last I checked seatbelts don't give young healthy people myocarditis.

[downzy]

3 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

Actually, I do. In citytraffic I'm usually without a seat belt. I only put that on on the motorway/freeway where I drive fast. But either way, that's not the same thing.

Okay, at least acknowledge that most people don't differentiate with respect to their seat-belt wearing.  Most people wear seat belts regardless of whether they're on the highway or a side-street.

It's very much the same thing because it speaks to weighing risks based on probability.

In fact, you're more likely to catch covid-19 and die than you are from being in a car crash and dying as a result.  In the US in there are 12.9 deaths per 100k due to automobile accidents.  For covid-19, the rate is over 240 deaths per 100k. 

You may say claim that's unfair comparison since we're not taking into account age.  Okay.  In the last 18 months there have been 30k covid-19 deaths for people ages 0 - 39.  In any given year a total of 30k-38k Americans die in car accidents.  That's not 0-39 year olds who die in car accidents, but all age groups.

The point is anyone who gets in car and buckles up based on the probability of being seriously injured or killed in a car accident but refuses to get vaccinated against a virus that is far more of a risk has a terrible sense of risk assessment.

And this is even before going into the fact that you get vaccinated not just for yourself, but to lower the risk for everyone around you.  Whether you put your seat belt on or not really doesn't affect the survival of others like getting vaccinated does. 

17 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Last I checked seatbelts don't give young healthy people myocarditis.

You do realize seat belts cause all kinds of injuries, right?

https://www.chiropractictucker.com/5-most-common-seat-belt-injuries/

[downzy]

32 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Last I checked seatbelts don't give young healthy people myocarditis.

Also, the rate of myocarditis relating to covid-19 vaccines is estimated to be between 39 and 47 cases per million amongst the highest risk demographic (young males 12 - 29).  

A recent study from Israel found that almost none of the instances of myocarditis were life threatening and no long-term effects were expected.  

[SoulMonster]

13 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

It's telling that you ommit the most obvious one. "The disease is not that dangerous. Most people do not end up in a hospital. Some do not even feel that they have it.". If it were, they would be more in a hurry to get vaccinated. Thus not everyone who is wary of getting vaccinated is anti-vax per se.

Thanks for reminding me of this excuse anti-vaxxers use. I have now updated the post, and here it is again for your reference:

Anti-vaxxers:

- "The vaccine is dangerous!" No, it isn't. There are of course side effects, but these side effects are substantially milder than the symptoms of the disease. 

- "The vaccine doesn't work!" It does. 

- "The vaccine isn't properly tested!" They are more thoroughly tested than most therapies, and have now been administered through billions of doses - the ultimate test. 

- "We don't know anything about the vaccine's long-term effects!" Wrong, and we know a whole lot more about the long-term effects of the vaccine than the long-term effect of the disease. 

- "The disease isn't real!" Err, it is. 

- "The disease isn't dangerous to me!" That might be true, but you don't know that. Still, it poses a bigger threat to your health than the vaccine so it makes little sense not to take it. Additionally, by being vaccinated you reduce the likelihood of spreading the disease to someone else, someone who might potentially die from it, and you don't want that, do you?

- "We should use alternative treatments!" Not ideally, it is better to go with evidence-based therapies where we know the efficacy and safety. It is highly ironic that it is frequently the same people who express worry over the vaccine's safety who then recommend unapproved, experimental drugs. Highly ironic. 

- "The restrictions are unnecessary!" Oh yeah? What do you propose then? 

- "We are being oppressed!" Get over yourself. Man up and take the shot. 

- "Our freedom is taken away from us!" It is part of our social contract that we allow governments to restrict our freedom, whether that is through speed limits, laws against theft, or temporary restrictions on movement during an outgoing viral outbreak. If you don't like society, leave. And if you disagree with your politicians, elect someone else. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by SoulMonster

[Popcorn crew]

Well finally I am over Covid. Still have huge problema like ni strenght, no apettite, strange feeling. Out of breath. 2 weeks of temperature well never think it will be that way. My mom was also positive but she did have 2 vaccine shoots so shw didnt even have any sideeffects. Nothing yet parents of my relwtives were in high temperwture for 2 weeks with also 2 vaccine shoots received. Crazy

[SoulMonster]

49 minutes ago, Popcorn crew said:

Well finally I am over Covid. Still have huge problema like ni strenght, no apettite, strange feeling. Out of breath. 2 weeks of temperature well never think it will be that way. My mom was also positive but she did have 2 vaccine shoots so shw didnt even have any sideeffects. Nothing yet parents of my relwtives were in high temperwture for 2 weeks with also 2 vaccine shoots received. Crazy

That's great news Hope you will fully recover quickly. 

[Whiskey Rose]

16 hours ago, downzy said:

Also, the rate of myocarditis relating to covid-19 vaccines is estimated to be between 39 and 47 cases per million amongst the highest risk demographic (young males 12 - 29).  

A recent study from Israel found that almost none of the instances of myocarditis were life threatening and no long-term effects were expected.  

Its very easy to be cavalier about this unless you have a teenage son.  It's a hard decision to make..."do I put my son at risk of heart damage"  (bc myocarditis can certainly lead to that) or "do I put my son at risk of covid and any future complications from that."  It's not an easy decision and I don't envy parents in this situation. I certainly wouldn't judge them for whatever they decide. 

[downzy]

1 minute ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Its very easy to be cavalier about this unless you have a teenage son.  It's a hard decision to make..."do I put my son at risk of heart damage"  (bc myocarditis can certainly lead to that) or "do I put my son at risk of covid and any future complications from that."  It's not an easy decision and I don't envy parents in this situation. I certainly wouldn't judge them for whatever they decide. 

The risk of heart damage from the Pfizer shot is substantially lower than the risk of heart damage from covid.  

Also, the data suggests that the very few (again, we’re talking about 3-4 out of 100k) who do develop heart issues due to the vaccine are treated with no expected long term consequences.

The only reason to assume your son might be better off not getting vaccinated is if he never catches covid.  

How confident do you feel he won’t get covid?  

If you’re on the fence about whether to get your kid vaccinated, consider: