Was Izzy really asking for a lot of money to come back?

[Blackstar]

55 minutes ago, Liva said:

Based on publicly available information.

December 1984 - Guns N' Roses files a general partnership agreement containing (Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy, Steven) as members of the partnership

August 25, 1986 - The GNR Partnership signs a recording agreement with Geffen which was amended at some point to separate AFD and Lies (Old Records) and UYI 1 and UYI 2 (Illusions LP's)

March 28, 1990 - The Partners of the GNR General Partnership entered into an agreement transforming Adler from a member of the partnership to an employee of the Partnership (Izzy was still a member, and I presume a vote took place, majority ruled Adler's fate? 4 to 1?).  

July 19, 1991 - Adler filed a lawsuit against GNR Partnership making allegations mainly that he was forced to sign document giving up his partnership interest, he was strung out when he signed and no lawyer was present on his behalf when he signed.

September 24, 1993 - Adler settled out of court on with GNR Partnership paying Adler $2.3 Million, $150,000 from Alan Niven and $50,000 from Doug Goldstein.  Parts of the court case with Axl testifying can be found on YouTube.  

Back to 1991

September 9, 1991 - Izzy resigns from the partnership just 8 days before Use Your Illusions albums are released.  I believe he was scared of litigation or upcoming litigation surrounding the riots in St. Louis among other reasons/sobriety/not wanting to tour stadiums etc.

September 10, 1991 - A new or amended General Partnership agreement is established, from this date on, profit splits were not equal.  Management decisions were made by Axl and Slash, if they could not agree, Duff would be the tie breaker.

    - The current partners (Axl/Slash/Duff) divided Net Merchandise Profits, all net NEW record profits (Illusions LP's, Spaghetti, Live Era) and Net      Touring Profits by this split:  36 1/3% to Axl: 33 1/3% to Slash: 30 1/3% to Duff.  

    - The document states "Such division will commence with the date hereof with respect to Net New Record Profits and shall commence with November 1, 1992 with respect to Net Merchandise Profits, Net Touring Profits, and Net Miscellaneous Profits."  This document was signed on November 15, 1992 by Slash...November 21, 1992 by Duff.  Axl signed it, but is not dated next to his name.   The agreement although signed in November 1992 states the "effective date" as September 10, 1991.  Its almost an agreement that was made and kinda back dated.  

    - The agreement also stipulates Old Record Profits are to be split 20% each member (Axl/Slash/Duff/Izzy/Adler)

    - Lastly the agreement states that if any member leaves they would be considered a "Terminated Member" only Axl/Slash/Duff are left as members at this point, and no matter what scenario happens, Axl has the right to use the Group Name "Guns N Roses" exclusively in the future.  GNR were on a 6 week break from the tour when this agreement was signed by Slash and Duff.  10/6/92 - Seattle, WA with next show 11/25/92 in Venezuela.  So the need to sign this otherwise Axl won't go on stage is a stretch, because it wasn't a show night or week.  Now I am sure if they didn't sign, the rest of the tour would've been cancelled, so that myth is a stretched truth in reality, not false but not as dire as Slash/Duff made it seem.   I always thought it was they signed it the day of a show/day before a show to prevent a riot.  If GNR didn't show up to Venezuela a riot probably would've ensued, but who knows

August 31, 1995 - Axl sent written notice to Slash and Duff informing them he was going to withdraw from the partnership effective December 30, 1995 and was going to form a new group using the name "Guns N' Roses"

December 31, 1995 - Slash and Duff are the only remaining members of Original GNR partnership.  Axl left the partnership, created a new one and took GNR name with him and did not include Slash or Duff in his new band.  At this point, Slash and Duff legally were not able to perform under the name Guns N' Roses even though Slash/Duff still remain the only members of Original GNR and own and control all Original GNR partnership assets.  

Oct 31, 1996 - Axl sends his infamous fax to MTV stating Slash will not be musically involved in any new GNR endeavor and has for the most part not been since April 1994 other than a 2 week period with Zakk Wylde in late fall of 1995.  Axl goes on to state "Slash has been "OFFICIALLY and LEGALLY" outside of the Guns N' Roses Partnership since December 31, 1995."  From the documents I am looking at, Axl actually left GNR, not Slash and Duff like has been said.  I guess Duff and Matt were employees of Axl's new GNR in 1996-1997 until they quit as they admitted to.  

So why all this?  Well lots of things went down, Izzy voluntarily walked away, I would assume he still gets and has always gotten his publishing and songwriting royalties from UYI, but he might have given that up with the resignation?  I am not sure.  Risk/Reward...Izzy didn't want the litigation risk and Axl risks, and he left, therefore should not be rewarded on an equal/semi equal basis that Slash and Duff are because they toured for 3 years, made the now famous music videos, put in the effort to brand the GNR name for years after Izzy left.  Not only that, Slash has kept the GNR name in the limelight with Guitar Hero, his non stop touring of his solo projects, and all his media appearances over the last 25+ years.  Axl kept the name going as well with his touring.  Izzy wrote GREAT songs/contributions, but he let Slash and Duff do the heavy lifting from Sept 1991 till present.  I would hope they offered Izzy a nice payday for the reunion, but in reality, the reunion is Axl and Slash, the casual fan doesn't know Duff/Izzy/insert drummer name here...lets be honest.  If I were Slash that went thru what he did all those years, plus getting hammered in the press for the GNR breakup, and having to answer non stop questions about it, while Izzy was in isolation for 20+ years dodging all the flack, I would probably not want to "split the loot" evenly either at that point.

 

For a deeper dive:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040727133641/http://celebrityjustice.warnerbros.com/documents/04/05/gnr.pdf

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3745-1992-10-dd-guns-n-roses-partnership-contract-memorandum-of-agreement

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/slash-quits-guns-n-roses/

http://gnrontour.com/

A couple of points:

- Following Izzy's departure, It took a year for the new partnership agreement to be drawn up because there were still negotiations with Izzy on the terms and conditions of his quitting the partnership (in an interview in July 1992, Slash mentioned a meeting he had with Izzy  a few days prior to sort out business stuff). For the same reason, the renegotiated recording agreement with Geffen was also signed in 1992, although it was about the Illusions and future releases (the partnership agreement and the recording agreement went together).

- The partnership agreement (or at least the version of it that has been publicly available) was signed by Slash and Duff on the dates you mentioned, however the clause about the band name (which was initialed by the three partners) might have been added on a later date.

- Axl's resignation from the GN'R partnership (according to the resignation notice he sent on Aug. 31, 1995) would have been effective on 12/31/1995. However, according to Slash's book (and, to an extent, to Axl's chats), after negotiations there was a "trial"/transitional period. So it doesn't seem that Axl's new entity became effective right away. Slash quit the band during that "trial" period, so he never joined the new entity (it's unclear if that was the case with Duff as well, but I reckon it was - as for Matt, he was an employee anyway). And, as far as the record label was concerned, Slash and Duff stopped being part of GN'R in May 1998, when the new recording agreement was signed. It's also not clear whether Slash and Duff would have been employees or partners (although with lesser rights than before) had they joined Axl's new entity (Axl said that he started a new "partnership).

Edited January 3, 2023 by Blackstar

[liers]

On 1/1/2023 at 12:56 PM, invisible_rose said:

I agree. And to be perfectly frank, I can imagine that was one of the big reasons Axl, Slash & Duff had no interest in giving Izzy a share in GNR. Axl has been dealing with that situation for years, he wasn't about to walk back in to another potential complication having got Slash & Duff back.

That's some ego there, Tommy. I'm sure the lure of millions and millions and millions of dollars was what pushed the reunion. Not an interchangeable bassist bailing. 

I don’t think Tommy was interchangeable to Axl. Tommy helped put the new band together and keep it together for almost 20 years. Not everything is about money. Axl has no kids, no wife, and doesn’t seem to have the drug problems of a lot of musicians… I don’t think he was hurting for money. He cancelled tours, he took 14 years to release one album and let two others sit unheard, he toured with a band that had an extra guitarist and an extra keyboard player that he honestly didn’t need. Those aren’t the actions of someone concerned about money. I don’t think the money convinced him to bring Slash and duff back. If it was about let the money he would’ve done in it in 2002 when that band fell apart, or in 2009 when it became evident that Chinese democracy wasn’t going to be a hit. Slash needed money, not Axl. The reunion simply happened because Axl needed a bassist and a guitarist.

[Tom2112]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

A couple of points:

- Following Izzy's departure, It took a year for the new partnership agreement to be drawn up because there were still negotiations with Izzy on the terms and conditions of his quitting the partnership (in an interview in July 1992, Slash mentioned a meeting he had with Izzy  a few days prior to sort out business stuff). For the same reason, the renegotiated recording agreement with Geffen was also signed in 1992, although it was about the Illusions and future releases (the partnership agreement and the recording agreement went together).

- The partnership agreement (or at least the version of it that has been publicly available) was signed by Slash and Duff on the dates you mentioned, however the clause about the band name (which was initialed by the three partners) might have been added on a later date.

- Axl's resignation from the GN'R partnership (according to the resignation notice he sent on Aug. 31, 1995) would have been effective on 12/31/1995. However, according to Slash's book (and, to an extent, to Axl's chats), after negotiations there was a "trial"/transitional period. So it doesn't seem that Axl's new entity became effective right away. Slash quit the band during that "trial" period, so he never joined the new entity (it's unclear if that was the case with Duff as well, but I reckon it was - as for Matt, he was an employee anyway). And, as far as the record label was concerned, Slash and Duff stopped being part of GN'R in May 1998, when the new recording agreement was signed. It's also not clear whether Slash and Duff would have been employees or partners (although with lesser rights than before) had they joined Axl's new entity (Axl said that he started a new "partnership).

Don't know where you find this info, or how you remember it but you are a treasure trove of GNR deep in the weeds info! You should look into making an advanced studies class for GNR😄

[Tom2112]

40 minutes ago, liers said:

I don’t think Tommy was interchangeable to Axl. Tommy helped put the new band together and keep it together for almost 20 years. Not everything is about money. Axl has no kids, no wife, and doesn’t seem to have the drug problems of a lot of musicians… I don’t think he was hurting for money. He cancelled tours, he took 14 years to release one album and let two others sit unheard, he toured with a band that had an extra guitarist and an extra keyboard player that he honestly didn’t need. Those aren’t the actions of someone concerned about money. I don’t think the money convinced him to bring Slash and duff back. If it was about let the money he would’ve done in it in 2002 when that band fell apart, or in 2009 when it became evident that Chinese democracy wasn’t going to be a hit. Slash needed money, not Axl. The reunion simply happened because Axl needed a bassist and a guitarist.

I think Axl and Slash both needed a cash injection, but they both would not have played together again IF they hadn't ironed out issues, it's more than a convenient way to make obscene amounts of money. 

Axl for a while there was rumoured to be a little stretched. You don't need to have ex-wives and kids to spend money like water. I think he was supposed to be spending faster than it was coming in. Slash had his divorce so obviously he was down a considerable amount too, but he was fortunate to have been on the up since about 2004 with pretty successful tours, guitar hero etc.

[Karice]

They should just pay Izzy the fair share he is asking for. Fans want Izzy back. GNR is working for the Fans, so give Izzy and the Fans what they want! We want Izzy back! We want Izzy back! We want Izzy back! 😀

Edited January 6, 2023 by Karice

[Stay.Of.Execution]

9 minutes ago, Karice said:

They should just pay Izzy the fair share he is asking for. Fans want Izzy back. GNR is working for the Fans, so give Izzy and the Fans what they want! We want Izzy back! We want Izzy back! We want Izzy back! 😀

First of all we don't know what Izzy is asking for, second GNR is not working for the fans, third they get along just fine without Izzy, and fourth just a few hardcore Fans really care about Izzy. The majority couldn't give a shit about wether he is there or not.

And lastly Izzy probably doesn't want to be in guns anymore. So this discussion is pointless 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Stay.Of.Execution

[Frankfurt93]

Last good song the band recorded was with Izzy still in fold, so much about Izzy's importance to the band. 

It is only on this forum people actually go posting thinking they know GNR individual business contracts 

As for Izzy...Izzy can go around asking for whatever he wants, for it is the songs he massivly contributed to that they play day in day out and sell out the stadiums.

Off the record, do they fill the stadiums with this semi tribute band? Yes.  On the other hand is that GNR? I know many die hards who take a piss at everyone who buys a ticket for anything post 17/7/93 and boycott this line up.

[Stay.Of.Execution]

8 minutes ago, Frankfurt93 said:

 I know many die hards who take a piss at everyone who buys a ticket for anything post 17/7/93 and boycott this line up.

Man, they must be as cool you. Do they also refer to Axl and Izzy as "Ax" and "Iz"?

[DoMw94]

4 hours ago, Karice said:

They should just pay Izzy the fair share he is asking for. Fans want Izzy back. GNR is working for the Fans, so give Izzy and the Fans what they want! We want Izzy back! We want Izzy back! We want Izzy back! 😀

Literally all of this has been addressed over and over again here 🤦‍♂️

And who is we? Not me. I'll take Richard, thanks!

[Karice]

1 hour ago, DoMw94 said:

Literally all of this has been addressed over and over again here 🤦‍♂️

And who is we? Not me. I'll take Richard, thanks!

You prefer Richard over Izzy? 😳😱🧐🤨

[Spiritual_Chaos]

6 hours ago, Stay.Of.Execution said:

First of all we don't know what Izzy is asking for, second GNR is not working for the fans, third they get along just fine without Izzy, and fourth just a few hardcore Fans really care about Izzy. The majority couldn't give a shit about wether he is there or not.

And lastly Izzy probably doesn't want to be in guns anymore. So this discussion is pointless 

Other than perhaps to play it safe to reach a "critical mass" for the media to write headlines like "GnR reunited" or "GnR is finally back!" to hype it up, they don't need Duff either. 

All Axl needed was the guitarist with the top hat that did the solo outside the church. To up the level of venues and get the masses to go watch GnR again.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Spiritual_Chaos

[Karice]

2 hours ago, Spiritual_Chaos said:

Other than perhaps to play it safe to reach a "critical mass" for the media to write headlines like "GnR reunited" or "GnR is finally back!" to hype it up, they don't need Duff either. 

All Axl needed was the guitarist with the top hat that did the solo outside the church. Too raise the level of venues and get the masses to go watch GnR again.

Speaking of Slash, I saw a YouTube video of Mr  Brownstone live where it seemed that Slash and Axl switched clothing styles. 🤣 Slash was fully dressed, jeans and T-shirt, and Axl was wearing nothing but his underwear and an open leather jacket! 🤣 Often, it's the other way around.😏

Edited January 6, 2023 by Karice

[DoMw94]

3 hours ago, Karice said:

You prefer Richard over Izzy? 😳😱🧐🤨

It's not about preference. They're different players who bring different things to the table. Izzy's Izzy, but Richard's a damn good player and I like what he does.

But since Richard's there, not causing trouble, gets along with everyone, fits in with the band, and paid his dues over two decades, I see no reason to fire him for someone who could at worst rock the boat and at best be unreliable.

Plus Richard gets my respect for the way he handles the whole Izzy thing. His sense of humour about the whole thing is admirable (selling "I don't know where Izzy is" t-shirts etc).

The Izzy thing's been boring for years. He's not there, he's not going to be there, and the current lineup is decent (in my opinion). Time to let it go

Edited January 6, 2023 by DoMw94

[Frankfurt93]

8 hours ago, Stay.Of.Execution said:

Man, they must be as cool you. Do they also refer to Axl and Izzy as "Ax" and "Iz"?

Really, is that best you can do!?

Only thing that is more silly than your childish comments is your Assba avatar.

   

[Stay.Of.Execution]

29 minutes ago, Frankfurt93 said:

Really, is that best you can do!?

Only thing that is more silly than your childish comments is your Assba avatar.

   

I know it's silly. That's the point of the avatar. Difference is you're silly and ridiculous without trying to be. 

[Guns N Toses Lover]

Izzy should have remained full Partner.  You can remain in the Partnership without being an active Musician for Guns N'Roses. He chose a big payout.  It's his own fault he isn't being offered equal pay.

[Gunner Gilby]

4 hours ago, Guns N Toses Lover said:

Izzy should have remained full Partner.  You can remain in the Partnership without being an active Musician for Guns N'Roses. He chose a big payout.  It's his own fault he isn't being offered equal pay.

I agree with this. But I'd also add that Izzy's not maintained the high profile Slash n Duff have with Velvet Revolver, their solo albums, touring etc... Everyone instantly knows the name Slash. Duff to a lesser degree. No one outside of diehard fans knows who Izzy is.

[-W.A.R-]

We don't know if Izzy was asking to re-join the partnership. Do we even know if they were offering him a full time gig?

[DTV88]

1 hour ago, Gunner Gilby said:

I agree with this. But I'd also add that Izzy's not maintained the high profile Slash n Duff have with Velvet Revolver, their solo albums, touring etc... Everyone instantly knows the name Slash. Duff to a lesser degree. No one outside of diehard fans knows who Izzy is.

Izzy has always been the best songwriter of the group, but you are correct that he keeps a low profile. 

 

6 hours ago, Guns N Toses Lover said:

Izzy should have remained full Partner.  You can remain in the Partnership without being an active Musician for Guns N'Roses. He chose a big payout.  It's his own fault he isn't being offered equal pay.

Pretty sure the St. Louis riot & potential liabilities scared the shit out of Izzy. Remember, he was newly sober and adamant he wouldn’t fall off the wagon. I don’t blame him for cutting legal ties and taking care of himself. As for this semi reunion, I definitely miss Izzy on stage.

[tsinindy]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:23 AM, Stay.Of.Execution said:

First of all we don't know what Izzy is asking for, second GNR is not working for the fans, third they get along just fine without Izzy, and fourth just a few hardcore Fans really care about Izzy. The majority couldn't give a shit about wether he is there or not.

And lastly Izzy probably doesn't want to be in guns anymore. So this discussion is pointless 

So, hey you can't speculate (about what Izzy wanted to rejoin the band), but I can speculate (that he probaly doesn't want to be in Guns anymore) lol.  What a hypocritical knob you are

[Walapino]

I remember the Izzy negotiation was done when only Coachella, Mexico and the Vegas dates were on. Im not sure if the potential world tour was on the cards as they never said anything. I doubt Izzy wanted back in the partnership, I speculate he wanted same pay as the other 3 for the aforementioned gigs. But who knows, shame he never guested. 

[Karice]

I just had a radical idea I came up with literally about a minute ago. They should just pay Izzy the equal pay he is clamoring for in order to return. If he leaves again,  he is forced to give back that money. 🤔

Edited January 15, 2023 by Karice

[DoMw94]

50 minutes ago, Karice said:

I just had a radical idea I came up with literally about a minute ago. They should just pay Izzy the equal pay he is clamoring for in order to return. If he leaves again,  he is forced to give back that money. 🤔

So if you were to quit your real world job, you'd be okay handing back all of your salary?

What an absurd idea 😂

[Karice]

2 hours ago, DoMw94 said:

So if you were to quit your real world job, you'd be okay handing back all of your salary?

What an absurd idea 😂

I'm thinking more along the lines of,"You wanted equal pay, you'll get it, but please don't leave again , or you agree to give back the money." Izzy most likely wouldn't want to quit if he knows he has to give back the money for quitting. It's an incentive to ensure Izzy stays for good this time. 😀

Edited January 15, 2023 by Karice

[Stay.Of.Execution]

Forcing someone to stay somewhere is always a smart idea. Especially in a rock band