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Differences between bands ... lack of professionalism and other issues


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Let's talk seriously. I've been thinking this morning about some issues involving GNR, and another one of my favorite bands, Pearl Jam.
I have followed them both since always. The question that remains, is ... why Pearl Jam is getting more intense, more professional, dedicated to the fans, and the GNR is not?

Besides the most requested songs by the fans to be performed every time in a better way (including Ed's voice), the shows are very diverse and never equal ...

Not to mention that Pearl Jam has taken many steps beyond professionalism, even registering live cds of various tours ... having hundreds of live albums (and various DVDs) released in excellent quality.

The guys are together from the beginning (changing only the drummers) ... this shows a musical and personal cohesion that never existed in GNR.

Let's face it ... what does this tour have to do differently from the others we've done in the last few years? I answer: the safe and elegant bass, and the incredible Duff's presence on stage. it is.
The performances of Slash would not say that it still has brilliance or charisma.

Axl should have learned to be professional in the first place, and respect the fans more, second.
Examples such as Pearl Jam, or even Metallica, inspire people to like bands and Rock N 'Roll more and more.

Let's talk about the reasons our favorite band swim, swim ... and die on the beach.

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Professionalism and releasing material are two different things. The band has been nothing but professional for the past 2 years. They were considerably late maybe four(?) times the entire tour and Axl really only stopped the show when security was being too rough or they were having a technical difficulty. 

Do we want a new album? Of course we do, but to say that Guns has been unprofessional because they haven't released anything since the tour started is unfair. Oh, and not that it's a contest, but Slash has a better stage presence ;)

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I do have a feeling that they're not giving us what they really could (some tour proshots). And I am aware they're doing it on purpose - when time comes they'll release a BluRay called "GNR: NITLT" and milk us even more... I'd love to see them spoiling us like Metallica does, but it's GNR afterall...

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Pearl Jam could be said to have been less into fan service in the early days; Eddie wearing masks in interviews, no videos, rather drastic change in sound on Vitalogy.   Vedder seems to have come to peace with his celebrity much earlier then Axl and Slash.  Stone Gossard has always struck me as a smart and caring dude.  He wrote all these monster hits, based on his guitar riffs and then he insisted the band start to write collectively for instance.  I sometimes wonder how involved they were collectively with supporting Eds mental health and McCreadys addiction.  To me they seem to have a true bond despite Eddies song writing conflicts and firing many drummers. Loosing Wood no doubt brought a lot of perspective to Gossard and Ament.

The way the took on Ticket Master makes them the last truly rebellious main stream rock band, and they did this on behalf of their fans.  Guns took the fans money and spent it on ice sculptures, caviar, hookers and blow.  I think that commitment to fans has played out with the many releases and getting the option to get a cd of the show you attended.

Perhaps its ironic, but I think PJs anti establishment ideology has often manifest as them being more "professional" 

 

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It is just the way Guns (i.e. Rose) operate. I agree with everything you said but it is a bit needless at this (late) stage to mention that stuff as I doubt Rose will change the habit of a lifetime. If you go to Guns N' Roses expecting logic, fan friendliness and albums, then you've arrived at the wrong band. 

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Yeah, i get you. When i look to some friends who likes different bands(Foo Fighters, Metallica, RHCP, Iron Maiden and even Motley Crue) the things with GNR are so strange. No New Songs, no news, no interviews about what's coming, nothing. They just play the same setlist on every show...

And, when you want to buy something there are just crap on the GNR Store. I dont know, if i meet Axl on street i dont know if i would request a sign or a picture. But with Slash and Duff, things would be a lot different, so in the end, that's how Axl Rose operates. It seems Axl just don't care, he does what he want and fuck off, like he said here: "I dont owe you anything..." "I dont work for you..." "You are no my boss..." etc...

Little sad. But i just love Gnr songs, they really touch my heart, and to me they have the best songs of all time...

Great topic! And sorry for my poor english :P

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Just now, Guitto said:

Yeah, i get you. When i look to some friends who likes different bands(Foo Fighters, Metallica, RHCP, Iron Maiden and even Motley Crue) the things with GNR are so strange. No New Songs, no news, no interviews about what's coming, nothing. They just play the same setlist on every show...

And, when you want to buy something there are just crap on the GNR Store. I dont know, if i meet Axl on street i dont know if i would request a sign or a picture. But with Slash and Duff, things would be a lot different, so in the end, that's how Axl Rose operates. It seems Axl just don't care, he does what he want and fuck off, like he said here: "I dont owe you anything..." "I dont work for you..." "You are no my boss..." etc...

Little sad. But i just love Gnr songs, they really touch my heart, and to me they have the best songs of all time...

Great topic! And sorry for my poor english :P

You're welcome bro ✌

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GnR has probably lost more fans than any other artist/band in history aside from Michael Jackson.

They (Axl) are experts at alienating their fans and taking them for granted.

But that kind of fan relationship w/ bands, celebrities is over. It's all about fan service now. In the old days, you could be mysterious or an a-hole to fans but it didn't really affect your celebrity status and bottom line. Now - if you don't do fan service, it hits you in your wallet big time. 

Axl may be riding high now with Guns but they could be doing SO much better from a financial and popularity standpoint if they only did a tenth of what Pearl Jam and Metallica did for their fans. You have to wonder if Axl got the picture during those dark days when he was playing to half filled arenas with his band.

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I used to be a massive Pearl Jam fan during high school, college and after. We used to do the Dead thing and go to 15 shows a summer, and I've seen them 75 times. However, the older I and they got, the less I'm into them. It's not real fair to compare the two bands. They're kind of from 2 different era's, even though the debuts were only 4 years apart. Lets not fool ourselves, Pearl Jam has changed quite a bit through the years. I get the bootleg thing...it's cool they do that. But in the beginning, they made a point to allow people to record the shows, but saw how much money they could make off their cult-like fan base, so they stopped that and started selling their own. They're making money hand over fist on those boots, as a company just presses shows on a cdr and slaps a label on them. They've moved into nostalgia act territory and have changed because of it. I mean, I have a 95 tour poster that says 'Sponsored By No One', and a few years ago they did a commercial for Target. As for Vedder's voice, it's much worse than it used to be! He can't hit the high notes at all like he used to. Oceans and Blood at Wrigley last year were painful! The cigs have destroyed his range. They're still more open to their fans than some, but are far less fan friendly than they used to be. Their concert merch used to be extremely inexpensive, but their shirts are $40 now just like Guns and every other big band. They added a ticket lottery for the fan club as opposed to the open online sale like they used prior. I've been in the club since 93 and never got skunked on tix, but have numerous times since they added that. The fan club was raised to $40 and they still send the Holiday single out extremely late every year. After they had some deaths at a show in 2000, they said they'd never play GA shows again, and now they play shows where the entire field is GA so they can sell more tickets. Listen to 'Satan's Bed' off Vitalogy. It's a anti-super model song written by Vedder, who is now married to a model and hangs out with Gisselle. The band releases an album every 5 years now. Vedder is a celebrity now. If you read up on their early years, especially the Vs and Vitalogy era, Vedder was damn near as bad to his bandmates as Axl was. He just grew up a bit as opposed to self destructing like Axl. They do some great stuff with charities, no doubt about that. As for Guns, the past is the past. We all know what happened back then...we all just hope it doesn't happen again. In the grand scheme of things , this reunion is still fresh after being away from each other for 23 years. We had no idea what to expect. All we could ask for were shows starting at a decent hour that didn't get cancelled or stopped early. What we got were great live shows that ranged from 2 hrs 40 mins to damn near 4 hours, which has shown that Axl has changed and become much more fan friendly. Hell, he's taking pictures with people. Sure, some people complain about the setlists, but some love it. Axl has shown up on time, is singing very well for the most part, not going on rants and appears to be having fun. Vedder is the one who constantly goes on political rants at shows. He's also the guy who went on an anti-Bush political rant during their encore in front of an arena in Long Island full of people who lost loved ones at 9/11 less than 2 years earlier and almost got booed off the stage...then mocked the crowds USA chant after the next song and threw down his mic and left...sounds like something Axl would be expected to do. Guns is very much like Van Halen and AC/DC. They're keeping everything in house and we don't know what's going on until something happens. It'll eventually come out. All they really owe us is a great show, and not once did I walk out of the 15 I saw on this tour disappointed. New music would be nice, and there's so many rumors out there that I believe something will be released. I'm not the biggest TB fan, but Fernando did say that '18 will be bigger than '17, and that can't just mean the Euro tour. I want info asap as well, but the mystery is kind of exciting, and the posts in here about it are damn fun to read. I feel like if you want to compare them to other bands, they should be compared to bands of their era or genre...which is tough because a lot of them are either gone, complete nostalgia acts, or playing county fairs. AC/DC toured every 5 years or so and pretty much played the same set every tour, same with the crap that Kiss and Aerosmith have done for decades. Guns could've just done a horseshit lazy money grab like Motley did and play less than 2 hrs a night and laugh all the way to the bank, but they didn't. Metallica is still huge, but they're not doing much different than Guns. They charge huge prices for tix and merch, but don't play much over 2 hrs a night. They switch a few songs around, but the sets are similar every night. Yes, they do sell bootlegs for $20 a show, but so what. I found recoirdings of every Guns show I went to online and downloaded them for the cost of blank cd's, and on top of that they did broadcast 2 shows live on Sirius. Metallica did release a new album, but it took forever to come out, and they even admitted that it wasn't a full collaborative effort. For a band as 'fan friendly' as they are, they should have more than 4 albums released in the last 21 years! They're a nostalgia act just like all the others their age.  Like I said before, the past is the past, and it's silly to still be complaining about stuff that happened 25 years ago. Time will tell if these guys are going to be a band or just a nostalgia act like all the others. I'm certainly hoping for the former.  

Edited by GoBucky
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1 hour ago, GoBucky said:

I used to be a massive Pearl Jam fan during high school, college and after. We used to do the Dead thing and go to 15 shows a summer, and I've seen them 75 times. However, the older I and they got, the less I'm into them. It's not real fair to compare the two bands. They're kind of from 2 different era's, even though the debuts were only 4 years apart. Lets not fool ourselves, Pearl Jam has changed quite a bit through the years. I get the bootleg thing...it's cool they do that. But in the beginning, they made a point to allow people to record the shows, but saw how much money they could make off their cult-like fan base, so they stopped that and started selling their own. They're making money hand over fist on those boots, as a company just presses shows on a cdr and slaps a label on them. They've moved into nostalgia act territory and have changed because of it. I mean, I have a 95 tour poster that says 'Sponsored By No One', and a few years ago they did a commercial for Target. As for Vedder's voice, it's much worse than it used to be! He can't hit the high notes at all like he used to. Oceans and Blood at Wrigley last year were painful! The cigs have destroyed his range. They're still more open to their fans than some, but are far less fan friendly than they used to be. Their concert merch used to be extremely inexpensive, but their shirts are $40 now just like Guns and every other big band. They added a ticket lottery for the fan club as opposed to the open online sale like they used prior. I've been in the club since 93 and never got skunked on tix, but have numerous times since they added that. The fan club was raised to $40 and they still send the Holiday single out extremely late every year. After they had some deaths at a show in 2000, they said they'd never play GA shows again, and now they play shows where the entire field is GA so they can sell more tickets. Listen to 'Satan's Bed' off Vitalogy. It's a anti-super model song written by Vedder, who is now married to a model and hangs out with Gisselle. The band releases an album every 5 years now. Vedder is a celebrity now. If you read up on their early years, especially the Vs and Vitalogy era, Vedder was damn near as bad to his bandmates as Axl was. He just grew up a bit as opposed to self destructing like Axl. They do some great stuff with charities, no doubt about that. As for Guns, the past is the past. We all know what happened back then...we all just hope it doesn't happen again. In the grand scheme of things , this reunion is still fresh after being away from each other for 23 years. We had no idea what to expect. All we could ask for were shows starting at a decent hour that didn't get cancelled or stopped early. What we got were great live shows that ranged from 2 hrs 40 mins to damn near 4 hours, which has shown that Axl has changed and become much more fan friendly. Hell, he's taking pictures with people. Sure, some people complain about the setlists, but some love it. Axl has shown up on time, is singing very well for the most part, not going on rants and appears to be having fun. Vedder is the one who constantly goes on political rants at shows. He's also the guy who went on an anti-Bush political rant during their encore in front of an arena in Long Island full of people who lost loved ones at 9/11 less than 2 years earlier and almost got booed off the stage...then mocked the crowds USA chant after the next song and threw down his mic and left...sounds like something Axl would be expected to do. Guns is very much like Van Halen and AC/DC. They're keeping everything in house and we don't know what's going on until something happens. It'll eventually come out. All they really owe us is a great show, and not once did I walk out of the 15 I saw on this tour disappointed. New music would be nice, and there's so many rumors out there that I believe something will be released. I'm not the biggest TB fan, but Fernando did say that '18 will be bigger than '17, and that can't just mean the Euro tour. I want info asap as well, but the mystery is kind of exciting, and the posts in here about it are damn fun to read. I feel like if you want to compare them to other bands, they should be compared to bands of their era or genre...which is tough because a lot of them are either gone, complete nostalgia acts, or playing county fairs. AC/DC toured every 5 years or so and pretty much played the same set every tour, same with the crap that Kiss and Aerosmith have done for decades. Guns could've just done a horseshit lazy money grab like Motley did and play less than 2 hrs a night and laugh all the way to the bank, but they didn't. Metallica is still huge, but they're not doing much different than Guns. They charge huge prices for tix and merch, but don't play much over 2 hrs a night. They switch a few songs around, but the sets are similar every night. Yes, they do sell bootlegs for $20 a show, but so what. I found recoirdings of every Guns show I went to online and downloaded them for the cost of blank cd's, and on top of that they did broadcast 2 shows live on Sirius. Metallica did release a new album, but it took forever to come out, and they even admitted that it wasn't a full collaborative effort. For a band as 'fan friendly' as they are, they should have more than 4 albums released in the last 21 years! They're a nostalgia act just like all the others their age.  Like I said before, the past is the past, and it's silly to still be complaining about stuff that happened 25 years ago. Time will tell if these guys are going to be a band or just a nostalgia act like all the others. I'm certainly hoping for the former.  

The Metallica record wasn't an all out equal share collaborative effort, but it was definitely collaborative even if that was just Lars and James. Watch the making of, no one guy is saying "this is how it's going, end of story". Kirk would have been involved but he had personal issues apparently that prevented him from being involved beyond what he did, we all know the lost phone story but lars and James have both subtly laud that story to rest. Basically Kirk wasn't edged out of the process, he just couldn't take part properly when the writing was on-going and by the time he could it was too late for him to contribute his song ideas. 

As far as the Pearl Jam stuff, I've always loved Ten, and I enjoyed Backspacer and a few other bits and pieces over the years, but I've never managed to get into them properly so it's interesting to hear some of that stuff. I have obviously noticed the drastic difference in how they performed in 1991/92 compared to 93-present - being more restrained on stage etc. and I remember the touring band 2000 concert release and thinking Eddies voice was a little burnt but I didn't realise Pearl Jam fans were complaining about his voice. 

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13 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

The Metallica record wasn't an all out equal share collaborative effort, but it was definitely collaborative even if that was just Lars and James. Watch the making of, no one guy is saying "this is how it's going, end of story". Kirk would have been involved but he had personal issues apparently that prevented him from being involved beyond what he did, we all know the lost phone story but lars and James have both subtly laud that story to rest. Basically Kirk wasn't edged out of the process, he just couldn't take part properly when the writing was on-going and by the time he could it was too late for him to contribute his song ideas. 

As far as the Pearl Jam stuff, I've always loved Ten, and I enjoyed Backspacer and a few other bits and pieces over the years, but I've never managed to get into them properly so it's interesting to hear some of that stuff. I have obviously noticed the drastic difference in how they performed in 1991/92 compared to 93-present - being more restrained on stage etc. and I remember the touring band 2000 concert release and thinking Eddies voice was a little burnt but I didn't realise Pearl Jam fans were complaining about his voice. 

Thanks for clarifying the Metallica thing...I just remember reading an article on Hammett that said they didn't use any of his ideas or something along those lines. Is Robert still just a hired gun? Does he help write anything, or just play? I used to be a massive fan but dropped out fully when Load came out. I thought Death Magnetic was solid but didn't care a whole lot for the last one. I saw them at Bonnaroo 10 years ago and they were pretty good but just lacked the energy/venom they had when I first saw them on Justice...obviously time/age and James learning to save his voice when he sings had a lot to do with that. 

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Robert is actually a full equal member, same as the other three. He doesn't share in anything before he joined but from 2003 on he has equal shares in the band. Now, he doesn't run the band and neither does Kirk, they basically take their orders from lars and James. As far as writing he's in a similar boat to Kirk, on Hardwired he was less involved with riff ideas and more involved with helping the arranging, on Death Magnetic he was actively involved in writing riffs, 'All Nightmare Long' was a song that one his riffs inspired. 

And yeah, they are not the same piss and vinegar band they used to be on stage or in the studio anymore. I personally loved the Load album, but I got into them in the late 90s when I was like 10 or 11 so they were the first records I was hearing from them, I didn't know the history or the drama that went with it all so I just accepted that Metallica change styles, and it's actually one of the main things I enjoy about them to this day (notable exception Lulu) :D

 

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12 hours ago, F*ck Fear said:

Topic aside, I find everything about Pearl Jam boring.

When it comes to Guns, I'm so used to the bullshit that it becomes strange when they act professional. Don't get me wrong, I like that they've been on time though.

I feel the same way about PJ now, but from the end of 92-95, Vedder was a very angry and jaded man and he brought that to the stage...the live shows were incredible because of it. You never knew what he was going to do up there. He cimbed the rafters at sheds, smashed holes in the stage with his mic stand and crawled through them at the end of shows, etc. He looked possessed most of the time.  Now that he's a celebrity, he's pretty much turned into a folk singer. But he can because they are the modern day Grateful Dead and sell out almost every show they play, even without new music. With all due respect to the original poster, he may not have seen them in the early days, because they are a shell of what they once were...nowhere near as intense! 

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Not all artists want "reunions" that sum up to acts of nostalgia ...

"You once said you've avoided a Talking Heads reunion because it would overshadow the other things you've done. Is it really that simple?
There's a lot to that. I see what happens with other people when they do their reunions – and then it turns into a second reunion and a third reunion. With someone like the Pixies, it's different – they're getting the audience now that they deserved ages ago. But with a lot of them, it just seems like you don't have anything new to say, and you go, "OK, this is just some kind of nostalgia exercise." And I'm not interested in that."

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/david-byrne-trump-why-he-wont-reunite-talking-heads-w516185

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21 minutes ago, auad said:

Not all artists want "reunions" that sum up to acts of nostalgia ...

"You once said you've avoided a Talking Heads reunion because it would overshadow the other things you've done. Is it really that simple?
There's a lot to that. I see what happens with other people when they do their reunions – and then it turns into a second reunion and a third reunion. With someone like the Pixies, it's different – they're getting the audience now that they deserved ages ago. But with a lot of them, it just seems like you don't have anything new to say, and you go, "OK, this is just some kind of nostalgia exercise." And I'm not interested in that."

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/david-byrne-trump-why-he-wont-reunite-talking-heads-w516185

I agree 100%, which is why this band needs to record some kind of new music once this tour is over. 

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2 hours ago, Original said:

Slash, Axl and Duff reunited.  I can’t complain about a thing.   I was there for the 1st Vegas shows.and more...I’m good.  

I am with you there, I got great live shows that made me happy.  Life is good

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But will anyone care when (or if) it is finished?

"When Guns first came out it was fresh and exciting," says Bryan Schock, program director of L.A. hard-rock radio station KNAC-FM. "But now Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilots and Pearl Jam are the exciting things. If Guns N' Roses puts together a solid record with an hour's worth of great material, sure, there's gonna be interest. But if they don't, this could be it."

If those sentiments are widespread, it signals a tremendous fall from favor for a band that once seemed on its way to becoming the top attraction in the world.

The reason, many observers feel, is that rock fans have tired of Rose's antics. He started a riot by diving into the crowd after a photographer and then walking off stage during a 1991 St. Louis concert. During a 1992 tour with Metallica, he was booed several times after either launching into some tirade or angrily storming off the stage before the show was over.

And the antipathy has grown as lawsuits have been filed by his former wife Erin Everly and former girlfriend Stephanie Seymour alleging that Rose physically and mentally abused them. Those tales are recounted in the current People magazine cover story.

The image of Rose as a spoiled rock-star crybaby doesn't wash in an age when the new heroes are such earnest if tortured figures as Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder and the late Kurt Cobain.

"Guns N' Roses alienated enough people that no one cares anymore," says a concert promoter who asked not to be named. "You've got to pay a lot more dues than Axl has before you can do stuff like he does. He ain't Keith Richards."

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2460-1994-07-17-interview-with-tom-zutaut

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On 01/02/2018 at 1:59 PM, auad said:

axl6.jpg

 

Let's talk seriously. I've been thinking this morning about some issues involving GNR, and another one of my favorite bands, Pearl Jam.
I have followed them both since always. The question that remains, is ... why Pearl Jam is getting more intense, more professional, dedicated to the fans, and the GNR is not?

Besides the most requested songs by the fans to be performed every time in a better way (including Ed's voice), the shows are very diverse and never equal ...

Not to mention that Pearl Jam has taken many steps beyond professionalism, even registering live cds of various tours ... having hundreds of live albums (and various DVDs) released in excellent quality.

The guys are together from the beginning (changing only the drummers) ... this shows a musical and personal cohesion that never existed in GNR.

Let's face it ... what does this tour have to do differently from the others we've done in the last few years? I answer: the safe and elegant bass, and the incredible Duff's presence on stage. it is.
The performances of Slash would not say that it still has brilliance or charisma.

Axl should have learned to be professional in the first place, and respect the fans more, second.
Examples such as Pearl Jam, or even Metallica, inspire people to like bands and Rock N 'Roll more and more.

Let's talk about the reasons our favorite band swim, swim ... and die on the beach.

i see where you coming from and i agree with you

i have dreamed many many times about how fantastic would it be if GNR could release all the live shows from the GNR era --similar t what pearl jam did

but pearl jam being together "shows a musical (...) cohesion that never existed in GNR"

what? how come it never existed?

it never existed in the non-GNR incarnations of GNR such as Guns n Circus and Guns n Aliens and Axl n Friends and this and that and the other

but if you are talking GNR...

man...

you take any given song from the 2 GNR albums

or you take any given GNR live performance 1986-1991

that stuff has more musical cohesion -- and power and greatness -- than the entire discography of pearl jam and u2 and green day and creed and coldplay combined!

:rofl-lol:

 

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