Perhaps - New Guns N' Roses Single - Discussion

[AtlasShrugged]

12 minutes ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

Well, there was 7 years between them all leaving and Contraband happening. The fact that they didn't immediately form a new band in 1997 or 1998 suggests they were all burned out and needed some time apart.

But Axl has inarguably been the least productive of them all as far as releasing new music. The fact that he's still clinging to songs that are 18-25 years old and releasing them one at a time decades after they were written kind of says it all 

I like the songs and do want to hear the remainder but yes it is a bit incredible when you contextualise it

[Voodoochild]

Remember that leaked Linkedin post by the PR team The Syndicate? Despite Perhap's strong numbers, the actual post was less excited about it.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/the-syndicate_3_gunsnroses-digitalmarketing-creativedesign-activity-7100220110509883393-9EoQ?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

[Blackstar]

Review of sorts:

https://metalinsider.net/reviews/track-review-perhaps-latest-from-long-time-rockers-guns-n-roses

"This piano-laden midtempo song gives off a Rocky Horror Picture Show meets Jamiroquai-type vibe, with lyrics that take the listener on a trip down a hole of self-doubt, regret, and self-reflection. "

What the hell

[mystery]

1 minute ago, Blackstar said:

Review of sorts:

https://metalinsider.net/reviews/track-review-perhaps-latest-from-long-time-rockers-guns-n-roses

"This piano-laden midtempo song gives off a Rocky Horror Picture Show meets Jamiroquai-type vibe, with lyrics that take the listener on a trip down a hole of self-doubt, regret, and self-reflection. "

What the hell

I can't think of any more random comparison than this. 

[LandOla]

Sounds aboot right

[Slugworth]

5 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Review of sorts:

https://metalinsider.net/reviews/track-review-perhaps-latest-from-long-time-rockers-guns-n-roses

"This piano-laden midtempo song gives off a Rocky Horror Picture Show meets Jamiroquai-type vibe, with lyrics that take the listener on a trip down a hole of self-doubt, regret, and self-reflection. "

What the hell

That's such an odd, random comparison that it's probably AI generated.

[RONIN]

3 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

 

Paul also cowrote Shadow of Your Love and Back Off Bitch with Axl prior to Guns even existing so at minimum he's someone who was able to speak Axl's language and help him map out songs. 

As far as his personality, I have no doubts he was hated by Matt, Slash and Duff. But he was put in an unfair position. They viewed him Axl's unqualified that was being forced on them. So while I fully believe their accounts that he was a jerk in their interactions, it's naive to pretend that was a one way street. He was almost certainly treated with hostility off the bat. Much of the blame for that lies with Axl. 

That said his lack of talent seems to have been overstated. He contributed to a number of good songs over the years. The irony of two of the first three reunion singles being Paul Tobias songs shouldn't be lost on anyone. Wouldn't be surprising if he's credited on Perhaps when the final credits are revealed 

Yeah fair enough, it could very well be as you said. As @Cosmo mentioned earlier, maybe Tobias was a strawman for Slash and the band to vent their frustration at Axl. Just a guy that was thrust into a situation that was already toxic and falling apart. He wasn't a particularly likable person which probably disintegrated relationships faster. I remember Marc Canter once saying here that Slash didn't like him because he wasn't cool enough to be in the band - that Paul was considered a "bedroom" guitar player by Slash. I'm not a guitar player so I can't evaluate Tobias' playing but what we know is that he doesn't really have significant writing credit (above 15-20%) on any of these tracks he's associated with. There are a number of songs with Izzy as the primary songwriter. That's difference #1 between Izzy and Tobias. Izzy was also an excellent rhythm player, hall of fame worthy - him and Slash are a legendary guitar duo. Izzy may not be the most technical player, but he's got the chops to elevate songs with his playing - much has been made of the guitar interplay of Slash and Izzy on Appetite. Does Tobias have that kind of influence on CD songs from a songwriting or playing standpoint? DId he even play rhythm on anything aside from Sympathy for the Devil?

It seems to me like Paul was in GnR not necessarily for his talent but rather to fill an emotional void in Axl's life.

Quote

Axl then [after firing Gilby in 1994] insisted on hiring Paul Huge, this guy he knew from Indiana who, for whatever reason, also calls himself Paul Tobias. They had history: the two of them cowrote 'Back Off Bitch' among other songs. I was open to the idea...until Paul showed up: he had no personality whatsoever and no particular guitar style or sound that I could identify with. He was, without doubt, the least interesting , most bland guy holding a guitar that I'd ever met. I tried my best to work with him, but it went nowhere. It was even more awkward then it sounds because our stilted interaction took place at rehearsal with everyone else watching us (...). No, it was useless; the guy was irredeemable. It was like talking to a wall,  a wall with a bad attitude. He was totally arrogant and gave off the vibe that he was Axl's boy, that he was in, and that everyone else had to deal with it [Bozza, Anthony, & Slash (2007). Slash. Harper Entertainment: New York, p.377-378]

Quote

Paul is in my mind completely useless. I hate that guy. I’m sorry, I’m sure he’s very nice but in a rock n roll context he’s pathetic, and as far as his relationship with Izzy, they’re Indiana kids, I can understand he feels comfortable, but I refuse to ever play with him again. I have to go home and deal with that, but as far as I know he’s out [Spin, Kerrang! July 1995]

Quote

 

The public gets a different story from the other guys ­ Slash, Duff, Matt - who have their own agendas. The original intentions between Paul and myself were that Paul was going to help me for as long as it took to get this thing together in whatever capacity that he could help me in. So when he first was brought into this, he was brought in as a writer to work with Slash. At the time those guys never suggested one name. Nobody else. Ever. Paul was one of the best people we knew who was both available and capable of complimenting Slash’s style. You could bring in a better guitar player than Paul. You could bring in a monster. I tried putting Zakk Wylde with Slash and that didn’t work. It brought out some interesting things in Slash but it was a different approach that ended up being overpowering and didn’t bring out the best in Slash. It brought out some interesting things and it would’ve worked to do some songs. But Paul was only interested in complimenting Slash, laying down a foundation of a riff or something. That would accent or encourage Slash's lead playing. Now whether or not Paul was going to be officially on the album or on the tour that really wasn’t an actual consideration at the time. It was in the air as a possibility but Paul was a friend trying to help us and he had a huge respect for Slash. He is and this is the bottom line a good man and that's the reality behind things. That doesn't change what took place with old Guns. I feel that some of the recordings we did in that limited amount of time had some of the best playing that Slash had done at least since Illusions. I was there. I know what I heard and it was pretty exciting.
[...]
Paul helped us a lot in the writing and the recording of this record and to me was a vital part of not only the band but also my life. The world tour really wasn’t his cup of tea whereas he's much more comfortable in a studio setting [GN'R press release with Axl interview; gnronline.com, 2002]

https://www.a-4-d.com/t140-paul-tobias

 

[mystery]

When I first heard Perhaps in 2019 it sounded like a Chinese Democracy song with Use Your Illusion style keyboards.  Even if that's off the mark it makes a whole lot more sense than comparing a musical to a 90's funk band.

[RONIN]

3 hours ago, Martin Riggs said:

 I agree most of that blame is Axl’s fault. What did the new GNR members think of him personally and/or his writing abilities? 

Seems like the only guy on record who actually likes Paul Tobias is Pitman and possibly Dizzy.

[-W.A.R-]

Axl's vocals do have a theatrical quality to them so i can see where they get RHPS

It's far more pronounced on This I Love, which could have it's own stage show.

Edited August 30, 2023 by -W.A.R-

[Mikey Whipwreck]

7 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Yeah fair enough, it could very well be as you said. As @Cosmo mentioned earlier, maybe Tobias was a strawman for Slash and the band to vent their frustration at Axl. Just a guy that was thrust into a situation that was already toxic and falling apart. He wasn't a particularly likable person which probably disintegrated relationships faster. I remember Marc Canter once saying here that Slash didn't like him because he wasn't cool enough to be in the band - that Paul was considered a "bedroom" guitar player by Slash. I'm not a guitar player so I can't evaluate Tobias' playing but what we know is that he doesn't really have significant writing credit (above 15-20%) on any of these tracks he's associated with. There are a number of songs with Izzy as the primary songwriter. That's difference #1 between Izzy and Tobias. Izzy was also an excellent rhythm player, hall of fame worthy - him and Slash are a legendary guitar duo. Izzy may not be the most technical player, but he's got the chops to elevate songs with his playing - much has been made of the guitar interplay of Slash and Izzy on Appetite. Does Tobias have that kind of influence on CD songs from a songwriting or playing standpoint? DId he even play rhythm on anything aside from Sympathy for the Devil?

It seems to me like Paul was in GnR not necessarily for his talent but rather to fill an emotional void in Axl's life.

 

This quote:

"Paul is in my mind completely useless. I hate that guy. I’m sorry, I’m sure he’s very nice but in a rock n roll context he’s pathetic, and as far as his relationship with Izzy, they’re Indiana kids, I can understand he feels comfortable, but I refuse to ever play with him again. I have to go home and deal with that, but as far as I know he’s out [Spin, Kerrang! July 1995"

To me shows how personal and juvenile things had gotten. 

You know this guy's a personal friend of Axl's so to publicly air him out like that, he was going out of his way to be antagonistic

[Blackstar]

It would be very interesting to have Izzy's opinion on Paul (both as a player and as a person) as they've known each other since high school in Indiana.

[TheGeneral]

28 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

"This piano-laden midtempo song gives off a Rocky Horror Picture Show meets Jamiroquai-type vibe, with lyrics that take the listener on a trip down a hole of self-doubt, regret, and self-reflection. "

Not many people know that Axl actually wrote Perhaps for Meat Loaf 

"Bat Out Of Hell IV - Hey, Hey"

[evilfacelessturtle]

8 hours ago, Voodoochild said:

Sure, but you implied that chord-based riffs would be Axl/CD signature, even though old GNR songs were already like that. There are some CD songs that are built on more traditional guitar riffs, even if they don't sound traditional, like Better, Shacklers, Scraped, Riad and maybe IRS (not sure if that intro counts as a small solo or a riff. it does repeat at some point). 

Being a signature of one era also does not mean it cannot exist in other eras. And the old GNR songs you picked were all outliers, kinda proving my point if you had to reach back to some of the first songs they ever wrote and didn't deem good enough for the albums, as well as ones not written by Slash at all. 

My whole point was that Hardskool is not Slash's writing style.

7 hours ago, Jw224 said:

Vocals are pretty clearly a different take. Axl says words differently. 

I did a back to back and the only differences are the "hey hey"s and the low harmony in the chorus. 99% of the rest is identical.

[Ratam]

3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Review of sorts:

https://metalinsider.net/reviews/track-review-perhaps-latest-from-long-time-rockers-guns-n-roses

"This piano-laden midtempo song gives off a Rocky Horror Picture Show meets Jamiroquai-type vibe, with lyrics that take the listener on a trip down a hole of self-doubt, regret, and self-reflection. "

What the hell

Jamiroquai....? 

[mystery]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

Seems like the only guy on record who actually likes Paul Tobias is Pitman and possibly Dizzy.

Weren't they basically a shadow group that worked together? Checks out, Dizzy would also probably have more sympathy for Paul as an outsider coming into this massively successful band.

[Amir]

9 hours ago, mystery said:

Dave Abbruzzese has ironically become the Slash of Pearl Jam in that any performance posted of early 90's Pearl Jam are about how people prefer him to Matt Cameron and how he gave the band more energy.

Also regarding the Chinese Democracy sessions, the biggest revelation from the leaks outside Atlas Shrugged was 3 Dollar Pyramid which showed the basic music for Better was written in 2000.

Better has always felt like a song that happened much later which it kind of did with vocals but the basis of it was around much earlier than most people would think.

It's interesting to see that Tobias plays on Better as well, but not Shackler's, Scraped, or Sorry. Those last three seem to be the ones that were put together around 2006/7 (though we know Sorry and Shackler's existed as Buckethead & Brain instrumentals back in 2000 thanks to the Village leaks). The lack of both Tobias and Buckethead on TIL makes me think that was a late addition in terms of the final version (though obviously the earliest demos would have been the oldest of all the ChiDem songs).

[SoulMonster]

11 hours ago, Martin Riggs said:

Well many would say his inclusion brought down one of the world’s biggest bands. A singer forcing his hometown buddy on an already hugely (pun intended) successful band is pretty f’ing amateurish. Dude had barely ever even played live before and you’re gonna act like he can step into this and make this decision all alone because of your insecurities. Also the guy is apparently pretty unlikable…So stupid now that I’m thinking about it again. 
 

This quote from Duff says it all:
 

[Axl] had hired his best friend for the band. I couldn't play with him. Paul Huge, that was the guy! He's a friend of Axl, he's a 'yes man.' [...] Man, you can't be in Guns N' Roses just like that. That was a real band. [...] Well, imagine you and I grow up together and you're my best friend. OK, I'm in Guns N' Roses and I tell the rest you're going to join the band. "OK, Slash, Axl, Matt, guys, this guy is in the band". "Duff, you got a minute?" "No, he's in the band" "Well, no. Everyone in the band has to vote it, Duff, so no way!" "Fuck you, this guy is in the band! I'm not doing anything unless this guy is in the band" "OK, you know what? We'll try and play with him, since you're that much interested in it. Hey Duff, the guy can't play" "I don't care" "Well that's not very reasonable." "I don't care". At that point, what would you do? I came to a point where I couldn't even look at [Paul Huge]. If I were in such a situation, if I were the friend joining the band, I'd say "Hey guys, you've done very good yourselves alone, I'm not going any further. Hey, Duff, thanks for the offer, but I'm breaking your band." But he didn't say it.”

That Paul Huge somehow brought down Guns N' Roses doesn't make sense, The problems between Axl and Slash started much, much before Paul entered the picture. He became the focal point for Slash venting his frustration at the time. Sure, from the little we know, Axl could have handled things differently, being more tactful around Slash who was already checking out of the band, not bruise his ego on top of everything, but Paul just speeded the inevitable process up: Slash was leaving regardless. 

As for someone else suggesting that Paul became a substitute for Izzy. It seems like the Axl/Paul relationship, at least as far as writing goes, predates Axl/Izzy. Axl and Paul had Shadow of Your Love written already in 1982, before Axl had settled for good in Los Angeles. In Axl's mind, where a band can be a fluid thing with people coming and going, bringing Paul in to help write music wasn't such a huge thing and aligned with how it had been done previously (just look at song credits, everyone and their mother have been writing songs for GN'R), but to Slash, who have a more traditional understanding of a "band" it was unforgivable to "force" Paul into the band (especially after Slash's suggestions were shut down), and it is hard for me to not be sympathetic to Slash here. It was a case of Axl belittling Slash by deciding how things should be. 

Still, I don't think Paul was meant to be a touring musician, and he also didn't last long when he got the chance.

And I don't think one quote from a guy with a score to settle "says it all". It just provides one opinion. I would think Duff would have phrased thigs differently today. What we lack are quotes from the other guys who got to work with Paul over an extended period, and quotes from Paul himself. Then we can say we got it all. Still, it is quite possible Paul didn't handle the situation well, either, and maybe he wasn't completely attuned to the emotional chaos he entered and didn't play his cards with tact and empathy, but this is just speculation. 

[Martin Riggs]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That Paul Huge somehow brought down Guns N' Roses doesn't make sense, The problems between Axl and Slash started much, much before Paul entered the picture. He became the focal point for Slash venting his frustration at the time. Sure, from the little we know, Axl could have handled things differently, being more tactful around Slash who was already checking out of the band, not bruise his ego on top of everything, but Paul just speeded the inevitable process up: Slash was leaving regardless. 

 

It doesn’t make sense? Don’t be obtuse. Slash, Duff and Matt all strongly disliked this guy that was forced upon them. Forced upon them btw in a douchey way during a chaotic time. They tried to work with him to be good sports. They ending up detesting him even more and Axl was too dumb or too egomaniacal to realize what was going to happen. What happened? Slash, Matt and then Duff all left the band. Guns N Roses as most people knew it or would accept it was now over for the next 20 years. I mean it’s Axl’s fault at the end of the day, but saying Paul the Pawn brought down GNR makes a lot of sense imo. 

[luciusfunk]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That Paul Huge somehow brought down Guns N' Roses doesn't make sense, The problems between Axl and Slash started much, much before Paul entered the picture. He became the focal point for Slash venting his frustration at the time. Sure, from the little we know, Axl could have handled things differently, being more tactful around Slash who was already checking out of the band, not bruise his ego on top of everything, but Paul just speeded the inevitable process up: Slash was leaving regardless. 

As for someone else suggesting that Paul became a substitute for Izzy. It seems like the Axl/Paul relationship, at least as far as writing goes, predates Axl/Izzy. Axl and Paul had Shadow of Your Love written already in 1982, before Axl had settled for good in Los Angeles. In Axl's mind, where a band can be a fluid thing with people coming and going, bringing Paul in to help write music wasn't such a huge thing and aligned with how it had been done previously (just look at song credits, everyone and their mother have been writing songs for GN'R), but to Slash, who have a more traditional understanding of a "band" it was unforgivable to "force" Paul into the band (especially after Slash's suggestions were shut down), and it is hard for me to not be sympathetic to Slash here. It was a case of Axl belittling Slash by deciding how things should be. 

Still, I don't think Paul was meant to be a touring musician, and he also didn't last long when he got the chance.

And I don't think one quote from a guy with a score to settle "says it all". It just provides one opinion. I would think Duff would have phrased thigs differently today. What we lack are quotes from the other guys who got to work with Paul over an extended period, and quotes from Paul himself. Then we can say we got it all. Still, it is quite possible Paul didn't handle the situation well, either, and maybe he wasn't completely attuned to the emotional chaos he entered and didn't play his cards with tact and empathy, but this is just speculation. 

He played what, four shows? I'm thinking HOB 01/01/01, Rio, and the two December 2001 shows, right?

[Martin Riggs]

10 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

He played what, four shows? I'm thinking HOB 01/01/01, Rio, and the two December 2001 shows, right?

Correct. Another apparent little fun fact, both songs that he was credited on (original versions predate GNR) were the subject of a lawsuit by Chris Weber:

 

Weber claimed to have co-written "Shadow of Your Love" (appears as a b-side on various releases, released as a single in 2018) and "Back Off Bitch" (from Use Your Illusion I), suing the band over songwriting credits, although the case was settled and Weber did not receive songwriting credits.

[luciusfunk]

1 minute ago, Martin Riggs said:

Correct. Another apparent little fun fact, both songs that he was credited on (original versions predate GNR) were the subject of a lawsuit by Chris Weber:

 

Weber claimed to have co-written "Shadow of Your Love" (appears as a b-side on various releases, released as a single in 2018) and "Back Off Bitch" (from Use Your Illusion I), suing the band over songwriting credits, although the case was settled and Weber did not receive songwriting credits.

It wouldn't surprise me, at least with Shadow. He's credited on 3/5 Hollywood Rose songs on The Roots of Guns N' Roses.

[SoulMonster]

31 minutes ago, Martin Riggs said:

It doesn’t make sense? Don’t be obtuse. 

What I meant was, it wasn't the sole reason for why Slash left. It was the tip of the iceberg.

31 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

He played what, four shows? I'm thinking HOB 01/01/01, Rio, and the two December 2001 shows, right?

Yep.

[SoulMonster]

14 minutes ago, Martin Riggs said:

Correct. Another apparent little fun fact, both songs that he was credited on (original versions predate GNR) were the subject of a lawsuit by Chris Weber:

 

Weber claimed to have co-written "Shadow of Your Love" (appears as a b-side on various releases, released as a single in 2018) and "Back Off Bitch" (from Use Your Illusion I), suing the band over songwriting credits, although the case was settled and Weber did not receive songwriting credits.

Regardless of whether Chris Weber thought he contributed sufficiently to earn song writing credits (which in the end he didn't despite reaching a settlement), there is no doubt about Paul's involvement. Alan Santalesa mentioned hearing Axl and Paul play Shadow of Your Love in Jagosz' garage (where London practised) back in the summer of 1982, well before Weber was in the picture. The song was then worked on by Hollywood Rose before ending up in GN'R where undoubtedly if was further reworked or finalized. 

[Chris 55]

I kinda wish there was a cd release of Perhaps as well.