"Monsters"="Soul Monster": new information from Marco Beltrami leaves no room for doubt

[Twinaleblood]

 

20 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

I posted this on the main thread, but this is maybe the place where it belongs. It gives additional context to what Beltrami said.

So yeah, me and @Blackstar were talking about The General and Monsters orchestral pieces played before the concerts. I'm not 100% sure, as it may have occurred one time or another, but I tried to find Monsters orchestra piece in several 2006 bootlegs, and could never find it. It was always just The General. Here my early findings:

- The General piece was played before concerts in 2009/10, but it was mostly used in 2006/07. I played guitar along with that in two recordings (not sure from which shows those were), and it seemed that the orchestra is a bit shorter than the leak, and it looped back to the beginning. It has a similar secondary melody (I assume those were horns?) in the ending that resembles the first few notes that Slash plays in the beginning of his outro solo. 

- Monters orchestral piece wasn't played together with The General, as far as I could find. I wasn't able to find any instance of it being played before 2010. This is one example:

- Our conclusion is: The General orchestra was the whole song, but shorter. It was probably never played together with the Monsters part, but we all (yeah, me included) assumed those pieces were mixed together and was the same thing because of how similar they sound. 

As I said in the other thread, this makes things even clearer! When GNR's twitter referred to The General as the most played intro, it's now safe to assume they were talking about the one mostly used in 2006/07. Because of the similar Beltrami approach, we wrongly thought that the one from 2010 was part of the same song, while it was Soul Monster all along instead. The fact that, as you found out, they were never played together, confirms even more that they are two different songs. Possibly meant to be played back to back and legally registered together, but born as two distinct tracks. Thank you for the effort, great job!

Edited November 1, 2023 by Twinaleblood

[Voodoochild]

6 minutes ago, Twinaleblood said:

 

As I said in the other thread, this makes things even clearer! When GNR's twitter referred to The General as the most played intro, it's now safe to assume they were talking about the one mostly used in 2006/07. Because of the similar Beltrami approach, we wrongly thought that the one from 2010 was part of the same song, while it was Soul Monster all along instead. The fact that, as you found out, they were never played together, confirms even more that they are two different songs. Possibly meant to be back to back and legally registered together, but born as two distinct tracks. Thank you for the effort, great job!

Thanks! Yeah, it's funny because everybody just assumed those were the same orchestra, when in fact those were two different pieces already.

But I might have missed one or two bootlegs that in fact have both the tracks played together. This is still a possibility. But as I didn't find any from 2006/07, I think it's unlikely. 

I was trying to find those two played together to see if there would be any clue on how they would fit, if there was any kinda of continuity between them. It implies to me that it will have some silence between the two tracks, so the theory that Monsters would be a hidden track seems plausible.

[rumandraisin]

 

It does seem that what we've been saying wss a mashed up orchestra piece made of both tracks is just The General pre 2010. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by rumandraisin

[Nintari]

Did I miss something? Was this a leak? There's nothing on Apple Music.

[Rovim]

2 minutes ago, Nintari said:

Did I miss something? Was this a leak? There's nothing on Apple Music.

yes, The General and Monsters leaked, no official release yet.

[Sweersa]

On 10/31/2023 at 3:02 PM, Dummy said:

We finally get our trilogy after all

The real trilogy is the friends we made along the way.

[Blackstar]

It's very funny how this confusion about the orchestral intro led to a chain of misconceptions, which in turn led the fanbase to years long "certainties" and "facts" that ended up being proven wrong:

- The General gained mythical status after Bach's comments and Axl's vague statement ("you may have heard parts of it somewhere") intrigued fans even more. Fake snippets and lyrics started circulating.

- Then came the hint in the GN'R tweet about the orchestral intro. The date of the tweet was Dec. 11, 2010, four days after the show in Adelaide where The orchestral piece from what we now know is Monsters/Soul Monster was used as intro seemingly for the first time during that year - before that, the orchestral intro that was played at shows was only from what we now know is The General. But the slight similarity of the two different pieces/intros, and maybe the timing of the tweet, led the fanbase to believe that both were part of The General.

- In 2018, the cell phone recording from the Vienna party in 2010 surfaced. Fans with good ears recognized the orchestral part from Monsters, which they then thought was from The General, and Evader used it for his own reconstruction of the phone clip. So it was case closed that the barely heard song in that recording was The General and fans could get an idea of what it sounded like through Evader's version.

- So, since we "knew" what The General sounded like, Soul Monster, the other "big gun", would have to be looked for elsewhere. And a year later, among the loads of leaks of rough mixes from Zutaut's storage locker, there was an instrumental titled "Me and My Elvis". The word "Elvis" in the title combined with the Sabbath-y vibe of it were enough for the majority of the fanbase to connect the dots with Axl's description of the song Soul Monster and jump to the conclusion that it was the same song, even though the earliest confirmed title of Soul Monster ("Leave Me Alone") left room for doubt. Many fans even renamed their downloaded track of "Me and My Elvis" into "Soul Monster", and the track started being shared with that title and not with the title it had in the Village discs. So it ended up being known as Soul Monster and some fans are still confused even now.

And, once again, "insiders" didn't know any of this and had it all as wrong as the rest of the fanbase.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Blackstar
Correction regarding when the Monsters orchestral piece was used as intro

[Rovim]

22 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

It's very funny how this confusion about the orchestral intro led to a chain of misconceptions, which in turn led the fanbase to years long "certainties" and "facts" that ended up being proven wrong:

- The General gained mythical status after Bach's comments and Axl's vague statement ("you may have heard parts of it somewhere") intrigued fans even more. Fake snippets and lyrics started circulating.

- Then came the hint in the GN'R tweet about the orchestral intro. The date of the tweet was Dec. 11, 2010, four days after the show in Adelaide where the orchestral piece from what we now know is Monsters/Soul Monster was used as intro seemingly for the first time - before that, the orchestral intro that was played at shows was only from what we now know is The General. But the slight similarity of the two different pieces/intros, and maybe the timing of the tweet, led the fanbase to believe that both were part of The General.

- In 2018, the cell phone recording from the Vienna party in 2010 surfaced. Fans with good ears recognized the orchestral part from Monsters, which they then thought was from The General, and Evader used it for his own reconstruction of the phone clip. So it was case closed that the barely heard song in that recording was The General and fans could get an idea of what it sounded like through Evader's version.

- So, since we "knew" how The General sounded, Soul Monster, the other "big gun", would have to be looked for elsewhere. And a year later, among the loads of leaks of rough mixes from Zutaut's storage locker, there was an instrumental titled "Me and My Elvis". The word "Elvis" in the title combined with the somewhat Sabbath-y sound of it were enough for the majority of the fanbase to connect the dots with Axl's description of the song Soul Monster and jump to the conclusion that it was the same song, even though the earliest known title of Soul Monster ("Leave Alone") left room for doubt. Many fans even renamed their downloaded track of "Me and My Elvis" into "Soul Monster", and the track started being shared with that title and not with the title it had in the Village discs. So it ended up being known as Soul Monster and some fans are still confused even now.

And, once again, "insiders" didn't know any of this and had it all as wrong as the rest of the fanbase.

 

my conclusion/mental note to self is never jump to conclusions when it comes to Gn'R. There is so much we don't know anything/know very little about. At least both The General and Monsters leaked and we'll hopefully have both soon in much better quality.

Fernando must have been extra smug when he made that post about Perhaps and The General. (and then it leaked) 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Rovim

[Blackstar]

5 minutes ago, Rovim said:

my conclusion/mental note to self is never jump to conclusions when it comes to Gn'R. There is so much we don't know anything/very little about. At least both The General and Monsters leaked and we'll hopefully have both soon in much better quality.

Fernando must have been extra smug when he made that post about Perhaps and The General. (and then it leaked) 

Yeah, I'm sure Axl and most certainly Fernando were laughing at us all this time.

[username]

5 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yeah, I'm sure Axl and most certainly Fernando were laughing at us all this time.

And now we, in turn, can laugh at them for screwing up once again. And the universe is back in balance. 

 

But joking aside I like how you set the facts straight. There's a ton of bullshit in GnR land and we need more sensible factual information. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by username

[uzi your illusion]

32 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

It's very funny how this confusion about the orchestral intro led to a chain of misconceptions, which in turn led the fanbase to years long "certainties" and "facts" that ended up being proven wrong:

- The General gained mythical status after Bach's comments and Axl's vague statement ("you may have heard parts of it somewhere") intrigued fans even more. Fake snippets and lyrics started circulating.

- Then came the hint in the GN'R tweet about the orchestral intro. The date of the tweet was Dec. 11, 2010, four days after the show in Adelaide where the orchestral piece from what we now know is Monsters/Soul Monster was used as intro seemingly for the first time - before that, the orchestral intro that was played at shows was only from what we now know is The General. But the slight similarity of the two different pieces/intros, and maybe the timing of the tweet, led the fanbase to believe that both were part of The General.

- In 2018, the cell phone recording from the Vienna party in 2010 surfaced. Fans with good ears recognized the orchestral part from Monsters, which they then thought was from The General, and Evader used it for his own reconstruction of the phone clip. So it was case closed that the barely heard song in that recording was The General and fans could get an idea of what it sounded like through Evader's version.

- So, since we "knew" what The General sounded like, Soul Monster, the other "big gun", would have to be looked for elsewhere. And a year later, among the loads of leaks of rough mixes from Zutaut's storage locker, there was an instrumental titled "Me and My Elvis". The word "Elvis" in the title combined with the somewhat Sabbath-y sound of it were enough for the majority of the fanbase to connect the dots with Axl's description of the song Soul Monster and jump to the conclusion that it was the same song, even though the earliest confirmed title of Soul Monster ("Leave Me Alone") left room for doubt. Many fans even renamed their downloaded track of "Me and My Elvis" into "Soul Monster", and the track started being shared with that title and not with the title it had in the Village discs. So it ended up being known as Soul Monster and some fans are still confused even now.

And, once again, "insiders" didn't know any of this and had it all as wrong as the rest of the fanbase.

 

What exactly were the circumstances of the cell phone recording coming out? I know the clip, but I'm not familiar with how we came about it, or how it was sat on for 8 years (based on your above post).

[Blackstar]

1 minute ago, uzi your illusion said:

What exactly were the circumstances of the cell phone recording coming out? I know the clip, but I'm not familiar with how we came about it, or how it was sat on for 8 years (based on your above post).

I guess @Mindray11 , who recorded it, can answer that. I'm sure he has explained it before.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Blackstar

[StrangerInThisTown]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I guess @Mindray11 , who recorded it, can answer that. I'm sure he has explained it before.

I never knew the cellphone clip only surfaced so recently, I thought it was from around the time it was recorded, and also assumed evaders version was thus also that old, like 2013 lol. When did it come out?

[LandOla]

6 minutes ago, StrangerInThisTown said:

I never knew the cellphone clip only surfaced so recently, I thought it was from around the time it was recorded, and also assumed evaders version was thus also that old, like 2013 lol. When did it come out?

Wait what, it surely was way before 2018, more like 2008, or am I going crazy?

[Blackstar]

4 minutes ago, StrangerInThisTown said:

I never knew the cellphone clip only surfaced so recently, I thought it was from around the time it was recorded, and also assumed evaders version was thus also that old, like 2013 lol. When did it come out?

I think Evader's version circulated in 2019 (at least that was when there was a thread about it on here), but maybe it had been out there since 2018 - definitely not earlier though, since the phone clip surfaced in 2018.

[Blackstar]

Just now, LandOla said:

Wait what, it surely was way before 2018, more like 2008, or am I going crazy?

The Evader version of "The General" that we know (with the reconstructed Axl vocals and speculated lyrics) is certainly from 2018 or a bit later. Maybe there was an earlier instrumental version based on the orchestral intros (even that though, if it existed, couldn't have been earlier than 2010).

[Rindmelon]

A few of us had the Cell clips in 2013/14. I don't think they leaked for years though. Silkworms n Monsters

[Blackstar]

2 minutes ago, Rindmelon said:

A few of us had the Cell clips in 2013/14. I don't think they leaked for years though. Silkworms n Monsters

I have a file with all the leaks from 2003 to 2018 and the date each one leaked, and the date for the leak of the cell phone recording is June 26, 2018.

[ShadowOfTheWave]

6 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I have a file with all the leaks from 2003 to 2018 and the date each one leaked, and the date for the leak of the cell phone recording is June 26, 2018.

But a few select people definitely had it before that. Here's a thread with Kaneda talking about it in late 2017: 

 

[Rindmelon]

10 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I have a file with all the leaks from 2003 to 2018 and the date each one leaked, and the date for the leak of the cell phone recording is June 26, 2018.

Yeah i think that sounds right. Probably got overlooked by a lot of people with all the madness that happened a year later.

[GNRfanMILO]

I’m pretty sure that both @Mindray11’s recording and @evader’s reconstruction of “The General” (Monsters) were hoarded for a few years (probably between 2011/12 and 2018 when they were shared).

[Blackstar]

23 minutes ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

But a few select people definitely had it before that. Here's a thread with Kaneda talking about it in late 2017: 

 

Yeah, okay. But that doesn't change when it leaked for the majority of fans and, most importantly, about the fanbase being in the dark regarding which song it was.

[Rindmelon]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yeah, okay. But that doesn't change when it leaked for the majority of fans and, most importantly, about the fanbase being in the dark regarding which song it was.

Well i don't think anyone knew that at all until it leaked last week. I mean I guess if someone had an older version of The General they were probably just wondering where all the other strings had gone. The only way they would know is if they had both i suppose.

[Blackstar]

1 minute ago, Rindmelon said:

Well i don't think anyone knew that at all until it leaked last week. I mean I guess if someone had an older version of The General they were probably just wondering where all the other strings had gone. The only way they would know is if they had both i suppose.

I guess if someone had it they would also have to wonder why it didn't sound like the phone recording at all.

[evader]

35 minutes ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

But a few select people definitely had it before that. Here's a thread with Kaneda talking about it in late 2017: 

 

I'd be curious to know "how" Kaneda heard it. Odds are he heard something over the phone as bait. And I know my clip is raw sewage, but by October 24, 2017, I had quit working on it. It was 2 minutes and 30 seconds long, and I suspect could have fooled many people under the right circumstances. And I wasn't the only one with my clip.